Just been reminded by the process of writing up our last trip...
If you don't yet know how to stop yourself accelerating down a piste on your back, head first towards a wall or a steep drop, take a tip from my mate who almost learned the hard way. Find out how, and practice it on a quiet, steep red slope with a run-off area.
We were skiing in the Ski Welt when he suggested the black run which had been in the shade all morning instead of the slushy red in the sun. I started to realise that he had no idea how to self-arrest when he'd reached 20mph and lost his skis and poles 40 metres back up the slope, and by the time he came to rest, he was 60 metres lower than he'd started, 120 metres down the piste, and 5 metres from a 15 metre drop onto rocks which was protected by a single rope with a warning sign. He had no idea of this of course, as he was face up and head down the slope...
pam w, I was just about to ask that too! Had a couple of incidents where I've slid headfirst, face-down a long way down icy red runs with skis still on and it's been very difficult to stop.
ousekjarr thanks for the useful vids!
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Sack the Juggler wrote:
They all show going feet first, how about if you are head first and on your back like your mate?
Bring your feet over your head so you're on your front with your head uphill. Also works if your skis are still on.
After all it is free
After all it is free
The most scared I've ever been on skis was on a pretty hardpacked red run in the PdS, which was cluttered with completley incompetent idiots skiing too fast, falling, and sliding at speed towards people (with no ATTEMPT to stop themselves, or even call out to those below in the 'line of fire'). Minging breakable crust just off the side, thankyouverymuch.
pam w, get them below you, gently get an edge in, 'til you stop or have enough control to stand up.
Sack the Juggler, use your hands and arms to move/twist/slide yourself into a more favourable position. Might not be easy, but you can claw yourself around (especially onpiste, where the slope angle really won't be all that, slightly different in a 40º couloir I grant you). I'm always amazed when I see people just allow themselves to slide with even trying to help themselves!
Last edited by After all it is free on Tue 4-09-12 10:10; edited 1 time in total
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Quote:
Bring your feet over your head so you're on your front with your head uphill
Hmm. Backward roll down the piste! Actually, I think I have managed to get my skis below me a couple of times, having fallen (I don't fall that much on skis, being pretty unadventurous!). I remember reading about that some time ago, and it does "kick in". Snowboarding a bit has helped, actually, as chucking feet/board overhead so I can get up onto my front edge comes fairly naturally. Snowboarding helps with falling generally - stops you being so scared of it, and you soon learn to fall onto one hip and shoulder, rather than flopping down on sore coccyx and sticking vulnerable arms out. We were taught how to fall on my first lesson (learn in a day, at Milton Keynes) but this doesn't seem to happen with skiing. The fear of falling, amongst adult beginners (especially middle aged or worse women) is a big handicap to their learning. Like beginner dinghy sailors being reluctant to do anything which might lead to a capsize.
I think some beginners who fall on a nonthreatening (to more experienced people) piste just lie there and enjoy the ride as it's easier than skiing down. I agree it's stupid, and very scary for everyone else on the piste. One of the things that stops me skiing steeper runs if they're crowded.
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clarky999 wrote:
The most scared I've ever been on skis was on a pretty hardpacked red run in the PdS, which was cluttered with completley incompetent idiots skiing too fast, falling, and sliding at speed towards people (with no ATTEMPT to stop themselves, or even call out to those below in the 'line of fire'). Minging breakable crust just off the side, thankyouverymuch.
pam w, get them below you, gently get an edge in, 'til you stop or have enough control to stand up.
Sack the Juggler, use your hands and arms to move/twist/slide yourself into a more favourable position. Might not be easy, but you can claw yourself around (especially onpiste, where the slope angle really won't be all that, slightly different in a 40º couloir I grant you). I'm always amazed when I see people just allow themselves to slide with even trying to help themselves!
I've done self arrest with an iceaxe and I realise how important it is to get in the right position, although its easier with an iceaxe to switch position!
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Getting feet below you and face to the slope isn't difficult - use your arms. Find a little used steep slope with a run out and give it a try. If the slope is very steep you only need to push your trunk fractionally off the snow or there is a danger when your boot tips first dig into the snow that you flip over.
I was on a 50º slope above a 200 metre cliff and fell (well, the part I fell down may have been 45º), Luckily I had been made to practice that self arrest by the guide who invented it called Giles Green so I survived (see http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=1440&highlight=victoria for my account of it on a previous thread).
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
ousekjarr wrote:
and practice it on a quiet, steep red slope with a run-off area.
doubles up as an awesome excuse to cover yourself after a punter fall - zero to hero
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I was very grateful to the press up technique many years ago. It was in the couloir immediately beneath the top lift station of the Schindler chair in St Anton on the left as you arrive. It is now fenced off although some people do climb the fence. It used to be accesible through a small gate below the lift station. The snow was three days old but still very skiable being fairly compact but not icy. I had read of the press up technique in a book by Wayne Watson in which he credits Giles Green for inventing it, although somewhat amazingly I had never practised it.
I cocked up my very first turn and fell on my back, head downhill. That couloir is particularly nasty because it has a rock part way down and if you were to go over that rock you would have a serious drop. It is amazing what adrenaline can do. Although I had never practised the press up technique, the memory of what I had read flashed through my mind and instinctively in one movement I turned myself on to my front and got my head facing up the hill, then stopped myself at the first attempt. Nevertheless because of the steepness and the nature of the fall, I was about twenty feet lower than the point at which I fell.
It probably helped that both skis came off and as I had my hands out of my pole straps I had nothing to get in the way. I would say that the most important thing is to react immediately because if you pick up speed it may be too late. On a steep slope you probably have only one chance to get it right.
That was over twenty years ago and as you can see, I remember it well!
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Tue 4-09-12 14:19; edited 2 times in total
That technique has been posted here before and I just do not see it working on a very steep slope.
If you have your hands out of the pole straps as I mentioned in my previous post, you will probably lose the poles.
If you have your hands in your straps the poles are going to be flailing around you. Imagine trying to grab hold of the bottom of one pole, which is hard enough anyway, with the other pole possibly getting in the way. When you fall on a steep slope you do not have the time to organise yourself that way. The demonstration shown is not on a steep slope and of course the person is also anticipating the fall.
I think it is a good technique to teach beginners for stopping on blue and red pistes, but not for advanced skiers on steep slopes.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
richjp wrote:
That technique has been posted here before and I just do not see it working on a very steep slope.
And yet it could combine well with the suggested technique in this thread.
richjp wrote:
Imagine trying to grab hold of the bottom of one pole, which is hard enough anyway, with the other pole possibly getting in the way
Grab the strap of the pole, or the handle, and pull the rest of the pole through your grip.
richjp wrote:
The demonstration shown is not on a steep slope and of course the person is also anticipating the fall.
I note the example video at the beginning of this thread shows a number of people who are also anticipating the fall. This does not make that technique invalid though, does it?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
The self arrest with a ski pole shown is probably ok when you have your skis on as in the demonstration, but then again if you had your skis on why would you need to do it? surely it would be better and more instinctive to use the classic ice axe braking technique. one hand on the pole just above the basket, lying on your front with the head up the slope then all your weight onto the point of the ski pole digging it into the snow just by the shoulder. Pressing the toes of the boots also into the snow would also help but may flip you over. Even then it probably would not work on slopes greater that 35 degrees (I am informed that ice axe braking doesn't work on snow that steep).
A better idea might be to not fall.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I am far from convinced by the demonstration shown. The guy says he is on a 38 degree slope, well without going once again into how accurately you can assess a slope angle and recognising that photo angles can be deceptive, that does not look as steep to me as something you might find at the top of a couloir. Look at the position of his knees in the first photo. There is minimal height difference between them.
He is starting to slide from a static position. He therefore has nothing like the momentum you would have in falling face down a couloir in the middle of a dynamic turn as happened to me. Once you get into a head up position in such a situation you are already travelling at some speed.
He also does not have the problem of his poles flailing around or falling on top of them. He is prepared for the slide and his right hand is already in a position where the right pole is safely out of the way, so it will not interfere with him grabbing his left pole with his right hand.
A good technique for most pistes but not serious steeps.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
altis,
As far as I can find by searching, those devices you have shown are marketed primarily as aides for touring and trekking. My touring experience is limited but I did once do the Haute Route and there a couple of steep stretches where we had our skis on our backs and were kicking steps to go up. Something like those poles would have been helpful although not essential as obviously you could use them somewhat like an ice axe.
I would not want to have those ratchets anywhere near me in a fall particularly with hands in straps. You could lose a few fingers - or worse! With hands out of straps as I have mentioned before you are likely to lose the poles anyway in a big tumble.
The Grivel has a ratchet that folds away so that might suggest that it is not intended for downhill use.
That's a very good piece of advice that taught much too infrequently by ski schools. It nearly saved my life once, and one day it could save yours.
One of the first things we were taught on a Snoworks course in Tignes last year by Phil. The first time I had come across it in 20 years of skiing, with many weeks spent in ski-schools.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
richjp wrote:
I was very grateful to the press up technique many years ago. It was in the couloir immediately beneath the top lift station of the Schindler chair in St Anton on the left as you arrive. It is now fenced off although some people do climb the fence. It used to be accesible through a small gate below the lift station.
That couloir is particularly nasty because it has a rock part way down and if you were to go over that rock you would have a serious drop.
Off topic but how steep do people reckon those couloirs are? Maybe 35 degrees?
If I'm right, the one Rich is describing is back under the lift, as in you have to do a 180 out of the lift station and go back a short bit? I've only rarely seen tracks on it, relative to the other ones anyway. I've skied two of the later ones (the one I think more or less immediately on your left as you come out of the lift station and the last one on your left before the piste opens up, which is quite open and gets mogulled due to a lot of traffic) and neither has the rock followed by drop described by Rich, which would make me rather less inclined to ski it. Its very narrow too.
But they're all roughly the same steepness, probably progressively steeper on skiers left. Any ideas?
After all it is free
After all it is free
I think Richjp is right to be sceptical about ski-pole arrests. You have GOT to have your hands out of the straps to put two-handed pressure on. Probably an off-pister would have them out anyway but piste people could also be in a position of steep fall and they would be more likely to have hands in the straps.. Then the ski basket stops the pole going in more that 3 inches so it's not very effective. I had such a fall once and I think I discarded the pole.
From an earlier thread some years ago I read up various papers and one thing that stuck with me was that "at the moment of fall you must be cat-like and twist so that you are head up and face down" ie ready for the press-up self arrest. Easy said from the armchair but valid and worth remembering because once speed is gathered you are in difficulty. The other bit of advice from that was to deliberately take a fall and practice , obviously choosing a safe run-out somewhat as shown in the OP.
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8611 wrote:
richjp wrote:
I was very grateful to the press up technique many years ago. It was in the couloir immediately beneath the top lift station of the Schindler chair in St Anton on the left as you arrive. It is now fenced off although some people do climb the fence. It used to be accesible through a small gate below the lift station.
That couloir is particularly nasty because it has a rock part way down and if you were to go over that rock you would have a serious drop.
If I'm right, the one Rich is describing is back under the lift, as in you have to do a 180 out of the lift station and go back a short bit? I've only rarely seen tracks on it, relative to the other ones anyway. I've skied two of the later ones (the one I think more or less immediately on your left as you come out of the lift station and the last one on your left before the piste opens up, which is quite open and gets mogulled due to a lot of traffic) and neither has the rock followed by drop described by Rich, which would make me rather less inclined to ski it. Its very narrow too.
But they're all roughly the same steepness, probably progressively steeper on skiers left. Any ideas?
The couloir begins literally from beneath the lift station. As you approach the lift station on the chair, you will see that the left part of the lift station is supported on metal piers. There are videos taken from the lift on Youtube which show them. After dismounting we actually walked back underneath the lift station itself behind those piers and entered the couloir from there. It seemed a bit odd studying a serious couloir with the clanking of the chairlift station directly over our heads.
There is another couloir, to the skiers left of the one I fell in, but after my experience we decided to give that one a miss!
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Farley Goode wrote:
From an earlier thread some years ago I read up various papers and one thing that stuck with me was that "at the moment of fall you must be cat-like and twist so that you are head up and face down" ie ready for the press-up self arrest. Easy said from the armchair but valid and worth remembering because once speed is gathered you are in difficulty. The other bit of advice from that was to deliberately take a fall and practice , obviously choosing a safe run-out somewhat as shown in the OP.
That "cat like twist" was exactly what I managed to do. It's amazing as I said what you can do when adrenaline (or fear) kicks in. You are right in that it has to be done immediately.
I have practiced it with Snoworks several times since in the way you mention. The only problem is that nobody ever practices it with skis on to start with because of the possibility of injuring your knees in taking a deliberate tumble. It's still a useful exercise though.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
I reacted quickly too or I'd be dead, but flipped over when my boots bit, though I had only pushed myself the tiniest bit off the snow. So I had to do it again, immediately. A 300 metre cliff is a good incentive.
Stopping yourself with both skis on would probably be OK, but losing the outer ski only could be very awkward!
I skied the furthest left couloir under the Schindler chair (double back left under chair lift station - climb over fence and go forward about 30 yards and there it is.) A great couloir (or more like a canyon with rock walls). When you come up the chair you see it on the left as soon as the lift levels out and you see the top station.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
8611 wrote:
richjp wrote:
I was very grateful to the press up technique many years ago. It was in the couloir immediately beneath the top lift station of the Schindler chair in St Anton on the left as you arrive. It is now fenced off although some people do climb the fence. It used to be accesible through a small gate below the lift station.
That couloir is particularly nasty because it has a rock part way down and if you were to go over that rock you would have a serious drop.
Off topic but how steep do people reckon those couloirs are? Maybe 35 degrees?
But they're all roughly the same steepness, probably progressively steeper on skiers left. Any ideas?
Probably around that at the top (certainly no more), easing off fairly quickly though.
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