 Poster: A snowHead
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Just spent a few days on a set of Rossi pursuit 100.
The interweb tells me that they are a beginner ski. I am no expert at all with ski types and attributes.
I am a steady intermediate skier, can ski any slope on the mountain, don't do off piste. 19 stones and 6foot 4.
What would you expect to see if I was on beginner skis? How can you tell if they were the wrong ski to pick?
Never really given ski choice much thought before, but think I should start to educate myself so I make the right choice next time.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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At your stats I'm surprised you didn't snap them!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@spyderjon, is that possible?
😳
I certainly found skiing harder this trip than last. I lost confidence on reds and blacks as I could not get the edge to take. I found they would grip then release then grip then release. Resulting in a juddering feeling on the downhill ski. Most unnerving. No problems on blues though.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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With them being easier to bend, the ski will bend to it's full turn radius under less weight than it should.
The way a properly balanced ski, chosen to your size and weight should work, is in essence that by applying more and less weight to the ski, it bends the ski by different amounts and this defines the tightness of your turn. So the more you bend the ski, the harder you turn. So you want the ski really to start bending when you apply a bit of weight to it, and to be bending to it's max when you apply the most weight that you can to it. So it's kind of like, 'synced' with you.
So if you have a ski which is too 'bendy', it will take less than maximum weight to ski it. This makes it skiable, but it essentially reduces your range of movement, and means that you will be bending it to the max without as much effort as it should take. And you reach a limit, where any further weight on the ski has no effect.
And if you have a ski which is too 'stiff', it will be take you a lot of effort to make the ski turn at all, and even giving it full beans you won't be able to make it turn fully. This will generally have the effect that you can't carve it because you're forced to spin the ski on the snow in order to get it to turn far enough... if you do try and carve you won't be completing turns and will be doing Mach 2 before you know it.
This basic ski physics is why it's really important not just to pick a ski of the correct length and width, but also the correct flexibility and also the correct turn radius... otherwise the ski doesn't grant you the full range of movement that you are actually capable of delivering to the ski.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@smagsmith, They'll be far too soft for you, hence the problem you experienced.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Interesting
So I know where to look for a skis length and width and radious, but how can you tell the stiffness of a ski without consulting the interweb?
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Rough estimate:
- Have a feel of it (hold the tip, base on the floor, and wiggle it with free hand)
- Ask somebody who knows what they're talking about (IE not generic part time student in Decathlon)
- The weight can be an indicator. Take 2 skis of same length and same material... heavier one is probably stiffer (more material inside)
- Look at the 'skier ability' set by the manufacturer. As a generalisation, stiffer skis will be geared towards better abilities (on the basis that good technique will help focus the weight; and that going faster generates dynamic load which adds to the weight of the person on them).
None of these are conclusive but they can help you find what you're looking for. Once you're looking in the right place, the only REAL way to find out is to ski it. Along with some other skis for reference.
This is part of why I tell everyone on here to buy skis by trying them not by looking at the internet.
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I see. So there is no standard flex index like you get with golf club shafts?
That would just be too simple I suppose. 🙄
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Bending them by hand tells you not very much. Torsional rigidity more important than longitudinal stiffness...
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| under a new name wrote: |
| Bending them by hand tells you not very much. Torsional rigidity more important than longitudinal stiffness... |
Like I said, 'rough estimate'! Doing all 4 in conjunction is only a starting point. The ONLY way to judge a ski's suitability to you, properly, is to ski it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@smagsmith, generally no internation standard, but there is a fair amount of manufacturers information as to the ski you should be looking at / trying etc on the web. Look at the website Skis.com. they have some good info as to skis that might fit your profile.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| smagsmith wrote: |
What would you expect to see if I was on beginner skis? How can you tell if they were the wrong ski to pick? |
In the lift lines, did you notice people pointing at you, looking down at your skis, nudging each other and giggling? That's normally a good sign that you made the wrong choice.
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@red 27, 😂😂😂😂
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You know it makes sense.
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@red 27, 😂😂😂😂
Lesson learnt here for me to research in advance of what skis are available so I know what I am getting. I normally just turn up and strap on whatever they have.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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As @under a new name, says, it's alot more to do with torsional specification than just pure end to end flex.
The torsion would be most effectively demonstrated by clamping one end of the ski and putting a big lever on the other end, then trying to twist the ski by rotating the free end with the lever.
As a general principle, the more weight, speed and inertia the ski is expected to be subjected to, the stiffer this measure would exhibit. By definition, this type of performance you'd expect to find (given a very high level of torsion) in the most serious of race skis. Most everything else would reasonably be found below that peak of torsion requirement.
If your ability, weight and input inertia are applied to too low a torsion ski for those requirements, the skis in flexing too easily will prevent the edges maintaining their correct geometry to generate a consistent response to the user.
It sounds from your description of feel the sampled skis gave you that you were on the borderline of the skis capacity to maintain their designed geometry. As you loaded them to your peak requirements, you could literally feel where that ski was unable to hold its shape.
I do think you've certainly been perceptive enough to first recognise and further describe those characteristics, it seems that your inbuilt feel maybe a little better than you give it credit for. More advanced than you perceived, so a good thing really.
The nearest info you'll get for general comparisons of this area is those little block scale icons in ski brochures that go from something like 1 to 11 on the beginner to expert range. They are possibly biased more toward this feature than anything else that is generally published and used with some care will give a fair starting point to go and try a particular level of ski.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@smagsmith, Ski 'categories' are pretty meaningless but if you want to use them as a guide then for your stats you need to be looking in the advanced/expert category. That'll also mean that you'll get a decent quality binding on them, ie one that's strong/stiff enough to handle the torsion you'll apply even if you're not on that high a din setting. Most low/mid range bindings have usually a maximum user weight that you exceed.
If hiring then at at 6'4"/19st just walk in to any hire shop and, with the exception of WC SG or DH skis, ask for the longest/stiffest piste skis they've got & go ski 'em!
If you walked in to my shop looking to buy I'd be recommending a Dynastar Speed Zone 12 in 182cm or a Scott Black Majic in 187cm. Both are great metal layered piste skis & are excellent value for money.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I am 6'7" and 18 stone so probably a similar build, as a first ski I'd really rate the Salomon X-Drive 8.0 which IMO is just a well-rounded yet nice and stiff, easy to use all-round ski. The 8.8 is wider if you fancy taking a punt at little off-piste but realistically not nearly wide enough for any serious off piste. Scott do something called a "Black Majic" which at 76mm underfoot is a bit narrower but perhaps a bit better at short turns on the piste, I really like those too and they do something about 185-188cm kind of size.
I promise I'm not in any way connected to or swayed by the brand, but at my height weight and skiing style, I really have never skied anything quite as impressive as the Whitedot Preacher. IMO - You do need to be a big lad to ski it, they're stiff and wide so they need a fair bit of power through them to make them work.
@spyderjon can probably tell you where you could find a demo pair to play with of the Whitedots and the Scotts as the UK dealer
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I do own a set of old skis that I was given by a friend of a friend. He is a ski instructor in the USA. I never take them with me as my assumption is that because they are so old, must be at least 10 years. I also assume that as he is an expert, they will not be suitable for my standard. I did used to ski on them when we had a place in Bulgaria a while back and generally really enjoyed them. I brought them home with me when we sold the apartment and they have been in the loft ever since. I was learning at the time, so would not have noticed much difference in ski types.
They are atomic beta carve 195's I think. I think I should get them out and give them ago. I was told they were top class skis when new. They will definitely be stiffer than what I am used to.
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Those were decent skis, but not in the expert range.
I have some Beta Ride 11.20s, which I still use and were the model above....but still quite manageable.
Modern skis are easier to ski on, but provided the life hasn't gone out of your 9.22s, they should be serviceable, if a little on the soft side.
Edit. Your picture is of 11.20s, which were excellent in their day and plenty stiff enough for you.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@smagsmith, Can't do any harm to give them a run. I am fairly much 'standard'. They make clothes and boots and skis just for me. Everything just fits and works  .
Softer skis are probably a bit easier up to a point, but when you bend them beyond what they were designed for it can get interesting. If you go for advanced or angle iron you should also expect a few shocks. If the old skis are comfortable and you enjoy them.....then..... I don't need to ask that question, do I?
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Mine are diffinately orange like the ones in the picture. When I get home, I will take another look and get the detail on the exact model.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| smagsmith wrote: |
| Mine are diffinately orange like the ones in the picture. When I get home, I will take another look and get the detail on the exact model. |
...then I think they are almost certainly 11.20s, which had superior stability (though IIRC 9.22 Hyper Carbon may also have been orange).....and would be much better than a modern "noodle".
They were very highly thought of, in their day.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I think that you would be better off in these, unless you go for something that's fairly sturdy, from the likes of Head, Volkl, Blizzard or Nordica.
The 10.20s were a notch down from the 11.20s (which felt like a recreational GS ski - but more versatile)....and should be fine at speed, provided the "snap" hasn't gone out of them. 190 is long in today's money, but will give extra stability, provided you can handle them.
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You know it makes sense.
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How would I know if the snap has gone out of them?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| smagsmith wrote: |
| How would I know if the snap has gone out of them? |
They would feel a bit lifeless, with a loss of edge grip.
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FAQ
