Hope that this isn't a real numpty question... Begun to notice that I'm getting occasionally unbalanced and going onto heels (or potentially worse) for no reason when releasing, or whatever you want to call it (standing up, for want of a better and wrong word) at the end of one linked turn (pole plant-ish time) before pressuring/steering into another. Thought that it was a new boot issue, which may not be helping, and has certainly made me a lot more aware of this new problem than I ever used to be, but been trying pretend ski moves at home in bare feet or flat footwear and I do it there too.
Been told that my stance per se, when I'm happy with it, is pretty good & stacked.
Ideas, drills, causes?
Thanks.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Boot top clips tight enough? And is this only with the new boots? (Clue?!) ...
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Unweighting is an old school technique....think of transferring your weight early and then projecting your body forwards and across, at the start of the turn.
Also, pulling your feet backwards at the start of the turn, is another way to get your tips to bite and stop your weight going backwards.
Finally, make sure your arms don't drop down by your sides, but are pressed forward in front of you, especially as you crank up the speed.
I'm not an instructor and suggest you get proper lessons on this.
Boot top clips tight enough? And is this only with the new boots? (Clue?!) ...
Become more aware of it with the new boots, but was having problems with previous new boots earlier in the year - seeminly not helping that all are making my stance more upright than I'd ideally like. I do have, or prefer, a pretty agressive forward shin lean preference, but maybe that's compensating for something else, and I suspect that there may also be some technique or not-totally-boots issue going on too. As I said, it can happen if I'm 'practising' in bare feet or flat shoes too. Perhaps the newest boots, being pretty stiff, are showing it up more? Top clips and power strap are reasonably tght, top calf fit is never tight enough as I have a very slim leg and even with spoilers etc I can't get as snug a fit as I'd like combined with the lean that I feel that I need to get my weight in the right place. Ongoing bootfitting consultations and mods...
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Old Fartbag wrote:
.think of transferring your weight early and then projecting your body forwards and across, at the start of the turn.
Also, pulling your feet backwards at the start of the turn, is another way to get your tips to bite and stop your weight going backwards.
Finally, make sure your arms don't drop down by your sides, but are pressed forward in front of you, especially as you crank up the speed.
... suggest you get proper lessons on this.
It's on the weight transfer that it's happening, effectively. On pressure I'm well forward and driving, but when I back off from that I'm almost over-balancing backwards - and if there's anything to knock my balance off, like hitting crud or a bump then I'm definitely on my heels and feel as if I'm leaning backwards. (Being of the girly type my COM may be naturally further back anyway, though I'm not a heels wearer - easier as it feels that it would be if I could ski in them! - and haven't got reduced ankle flelx or tight lower musculature as far as I've been told.)
Thinking about it yesterday I came up with a self-instruction to 'stand' (or unweight, as we used to do) in a forwards-projecting direction; hard to explain, but it was a mental thing to think and move diagonally forward, rather than up. Very much focus on feeling balls/bunions and little toes all the time, too (a bit further foward than I like, but maybe if I can train the brain and body this way at first it'll keep the focus forwards and then I can adapt and rein back a tad as needed once keeping thorougly forward?).
Also realised that I must make sure my arms and hands are fully and properly out, etc, etc - it all helps.
Thing is, it's all seeming a lot of hard work and constant thinking about where my body and weight is, and keeping it there, rather than just ski-ing easily and naturally as I used to be able to do. Maybe I'm getting better and/or more aware, maybe something's wrong with boots/stance, maybe it's just body changes as I mature..?
Can you expand on pulling heels backwards? Where? What are you visualising? At what exact point in the turn?
Tried quite a few lessons this year, some have commented on this issue, observed it or said as you did about the 'projecting forwards' idea, but none have come up with solutions or explanations that are working, so am at present in disillusioned, self-help, skint mode..
Thanks so far. Keep any hints or help coming, please.
@Grizzler, Unweighting may oldschool, but you still need to flex and extend your legs. When you extend your legs your hips need to move forward as well as upward.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
To demonstrate what I mean by pulling back your feet, here is Harald Harb showing how the timing of it works (this doesn't mean I'm necessarily a total fan of a his method).
The sucking back of the feet have other uses eg. Any time you have to drop over a steep lip....suck the feet back as you drop over.
Also, in moguls, you can push the feet forward to offset the braking effect as you hit the back of the mogul...and the suck them back again, as you drop over the front...it feels like a backwards pedaling motion (with both feet on one pedal). Demonstrated here:
If all else fails, get a good boot fitter to check your stance in your boots/skis ie. Ramp angle, forward lean etc.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Thu 1-12-16 22:09; edited 1 time in total
After all it is free
After all it is free
Many thanks @Old Fartbag, Lots to think about there. Never thought about pulling the feet back as such, though I do (or can) "hop" and probably instictively do the moguls extension/retraction bit when going over bumps. I'll certainly go and see if I can make a bit more sense of it when next on a slope.
TBH though, I can't see anything major that I'm doing wrong (although of course there'll be something!): it's simply that I feel as if I'm struggling to get my weight forward enough and it's too easy to have it come back on me, especially if not 200% commited at high speed and really agressively pushing it and skiing very low and dynamically (and even then...).
Maybe I need a smaller bum and bigger boobs??? Or I could just stick my bum out and bend forward a lot..... Or just take up full-on downhill racing
I have recently had the new boots checked and set-up/fitted by a decent/recommended fitter, which is why I'm presuming that at least part of the problem is with me, much as I'd love to blame the boots' design or flex (or whatever) in full. Sadly, it's always a lot different out on the slope than inside a shop or at home. I wish that the good fitters were at the least based at an indoor or dry slope (preferably indoor, it's colder) rather than requiring long treks to go back and forth every time that you need to test an adjustment or feel that you may have a problem which you can't then always describe or demonstrate in a shop - or that the large chain shops who sell boots at said venues really did have reliably-good fitters (which, no personal offence to some of them, but they don't exactly have the best reputations always, do they?). Certainly I've fallen foul of that one in the past, much to many a ruined holiday and wasted boot expense.
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ski wrote:
When you extend your legs your hips need to move forward as well as upward.
You know what? Just been standing in front of a mirror, assuming the position, and working out how exactly your hips/pelvis can move forwards (and not just upwards) as you extend your knees & ankles: and I think that there's a definite possible something here which I'm not doing as part of the overall dynamics of skiing and turns.
If I said that it was a kind of tucking bum under, thrusting forward kind of movement that's required as you 'stand' and extend, would I be anywhere in the ball park? I suspect that there may be a rather simpler - if unprintable - way of describing it (but not being of a man type, I'm not 100% sure )
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@Grizzler, it occurs to me that a problem might be to do with your upper body following your legs around rather than maintaining a "good"separation?
Also that "unweighting" is rather '80s...
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under a new name wrote:
might be to do with your upper body following your legs around rather than maintaining a "good"separation?
Could be - except I have a very bad habit of keeping my body facing straight down the slope (been told off for that at times!) and it's hard to achieve the issue standing at home in bare feet! But I'll add it to the pile to think about, as I know that I've not been 'opening' or using my hips enough when struggling with boots and stances which don't feel right this year.
under a new name wrote:
Also that "unweighting" is rather '80s...
They definitely still taught it in Austria about 3 seasons ago.
Interestingly, it's only really this year that I've come across instructors (in UK) talking about the emphasis being more on driving forwards: and I've yet to hear it fully explained without them going back to the old flex and extend, pole plant, separation and other words and ways of demonstrating which I'm more used to.
Or maybe my body's just stuck in the 80's anyway (At least it'd be a bit less stiff and achy...)
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Thinking out loud here - You probably get left behind as the speed builds up...so
1. Make sure you properly finish your turns, or you will be out of control before you even start the next one.
2. I don't think any type of standing up movement is helpful when going fast. The transition should happen with a softening of the legs.
3. In order for the body not to get left behind at the start of the turn, especially when going fast, it has to get a head start...so as the skis go round the full arc of the turn, the body gets this head start by taking a shortcut ie. getting forward and across. Getting this timing wrong will leave you in the back seat right from the get go...A slight backing off from the commitment needed (due to fear/self preservation), is all it takes to push your weight back.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Thu 1-12-16 22:36; edited 1 time in total
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
There is general trend for boots to be more upright these days which can be a bit difficult for some to adapt to (and I include myself).
It's pretty easy to experiment with, just go out with a pocket full of packers, bits of carpet tile are good, try different thicknesses down between liner and shell at the back of the boot, doing a few runs with each thickness and see how it feels.
Austrian skiing is a mighty fine thing. They're all hugely proud of it. It's quite a distinctive style and it may be that people here have different backgrounds.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Grizzler wrote:
ski wrote:
When you extend your legs your hips need to move forward as well as upward.
You know what? Just been standing in front of a mirror, assuming the position, and working out how exactly your hips/pelvis can move forwards (and not just upwards) as you extend your knees & ankles: and I think that there's a definite possible something here which I'm not doing as part of the overall dynamics of skiing and turns.
If I said that it was a kind of tucking bum under, thrusting forward kind of movement that's required as you 'stand' and extend, would I be anywhere in the ball park? I suspect that there may be a rather simpler - if unprintable - way of describing it (but not being of a man type, I'm not 100% sure )
Coming out of one turn, flex well to finish such that your body isn't being 'left behind', and then extend forwards and across (greater or lesser extent as wished), the key thing is to keep constant pressure under the feet! Another factor, possible but less likely is mounting position of bindings on your skis. Lessons, lessons ...
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Irrev wrote:
... the key thing is to keep constant pressure under the feet!
Could you elaborate on this a little, please.
When I'm skiing, the pressure under my feet is constantly changing....the pressure naturally/significantly increases as the skis cross the fall-line and continues to build until I release it into the next turn.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:
I suspect that there may be a rather simpler - if unprintable - way of describing it
shag not sh i t Gender neutral.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Old Fartbag wrote:
Irrev wrote:
... the key thing is to keep constant pressure under the feet!
Could you elaborate on this a little, please.
When I'm skiing, the pressure under my feet is constantly changing....the pressure naturally/significantly increases as the skis cross the fall-line and continues to build until I release it into the next turn.
Most specific to during the turn, though if you're taking a wide carve back across the hill then you will 'feel' pressure ease i.e. the need for under-foot pressure, but pressure should be constantly maintained. The shorter and more dynamic the turns the greater the need to keep really unwavering pressure on the skis. Or from another perspective, if you're losing that pressure even briefly then you can't be centred over/balanced against the turning ski - you'll possibly know that momentary back-seat sensation. The maintaining of pressure is constant, but the amount of pressure itself is not. Hope this helps
The maintaining of pressure is constant, but the amount of pressure itself is not. Hope this helps
I get you - Thx.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Thanks all - a lot to think about, but I think that things are becoming clearer.
I'm pretty sure that it's to do with how I'm moving/maintaining my hips/pelvis, and need to work on keeping that forward. As I said, it's happening just practising at home, so this seems to be a prime candidate, though doubtless everything else is wrong too...
Always been good at tucking bum under and keeping straight and neutral lower back (trained to do that for other purposes) - sometimes wonder in skiing if I do it too much in a fear of sticking my bum out - but this seems to require a different forward projection and movement of the frontal pelvis and upper thighs, which at present feels like a terribly un-natural position for me, and something which my body doesn't want to do (but will after enough practice). On the 'dry' (at home, in bare feet) it certainly seems to be helping. Will try in my boots later today at home then take it to a slope asap.
@pam w, - clearly something else that I'm doing wrong, then... I think that a bit of singing the 'Time Warp' (Rocky Horror Show) and its pelvic thrusting may not go amis for a while, though.
@Irrev, I think that's pressure's a helpful point to think about too as I do tend to switch off pressure completely and then switch it on again - useful to be able to do quickly at times, but I'm not maintaining constant pressure of some kind and maybe that's where my weighting's suffering.
Lesson - yes please. But I have spent quite a lot this year on lessons (UK and overseas) and not found that I've gone anywhere forward except to be told that I do a few things wrong, which I know about - very frustrating! A few free comments from instructors/candidates whom I've met en passant have actually been a lot more helpful. TBH, especailly given how I like to learn, posting on here, thinking, playing around at home and lots of YouTube seems to be getting me further at present (and then eventually I'll go and try again to find an instructor who can correct my misunderstandings) than anything in person. I have been told that I'd benefit from race training sessions, but unfortuantely can't make them. If anyone wants a volunteer for instuctor practice, however, I'm available...
@rich, yep, roll mat's good too! Techncially, however, I feel that I should still be able to adapt: but it isn't easy.
1. Make sure you properly finish your turns
2.The transition should happen with a softening of the legs.
3. In order for the body not to get left behind at the start of the turn, especially when going fast, it has to get a head start...so as the skis go round the full arc of the turn, the body gets this head start by taking a shortcut ie. getting forward and across. Getting this timing wrong will leave you in the back seat right from the get go...A slight backing off from the commitment needed (due to fear/self preservation), is all it takes to push your weight back.
Kind of makes sense; maybe. Softening certainly does. But can you elaborate, please, on "getting forward and across" and the timing aspect? I think that I know what you mean, but let's be sure.
Also, exactly what is meant by properly finishing turns? Especially in sort ones, at what point are they "finished" before a new one is started?
Thanks.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@Grizzler, It's getting super technical on here very quickly, and you'll be going out skiing with a million things to think about if you are not careful!
Are you skiing regularly at the moment (I'm guessing you are by your comments), and if so could you get some video of your turns?
regards,
Greg
After all it is free
After all it is free
Grizzler wrote:
Kind of makes sense; maybe. Softening certainly does. But can you elaborate, please, on "getting forward and across" and the timing aspect? I think that I know what you mean, but let's be sure.
Also, exactly what is meant by properly finishing turns? Especially in sort ones, at what point are they "finished" before a new one is started?
Thanks.
I will do my best with this and use more video clips to illustrate my points, if that's OK.
It depends on whether you are doing carved or skidded/rebound turns.
Skidded.
This is where you hover your hips between the skis ie Short Swings. To get control on a steep slope, you need to get an advanced checking angle ie. Greater distance between hips and feet, giving bigger angle earlier in the turn.
Carved
Hold onto turn longer....imagine a fishhook shape....also known as a J Turn
@Irrev, I think that's pressure's a helpful point to think about too as I do tend to switch off pressure completely and then switch it on again - useful to be able to do quickly at times, but I'm not maintaining constant pressure of some kind and maybe that's where my weighting's suffering.
Lesson - yes please. But I have spent quite a lot this year on lessons (UK and overseas) and not found that I've gone anywhere forward except to be told that I do a few things wrong, which I know about - very frustrating! A few free comments from instructors/candidates whom I've met en passant have actually been a lot more helpful. TBH, especailly given how I like to learn, posting on here, thinking, playing around at home and lots of YouTube seems to be getting me further at present (and then eventually I'll go and try again to find an instructor who can correct my misunderstandings) than anything in person. I have been told that I'd benefit from race training sessions, but unfortuantely can't make them. If anyone wants a volunteer for instuctor practice, however, I'm available...
Glad if that's helped! Pressure, rising up/forwards (from the knees) and 'moving' into the turn, managing your stance over the skis - are all of course inter-related - stance (non-static) is key. . And no "straight back"! Any qualified instructor should be able to help you with this, or otherwise if you're in Scotland ...
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kitenski wrote:
@Grizzler, It's getting super technical on here very quickly, and you'll be going out skiing with a million things to think about if you are not careful!
This is a very valid point.
Only one technique/thought should be taken out to the mountain at any one time.
My intention was simply to bring some different concepts/ideas/skills to the table, that could be digested, explored and experimented with, in a slow and measured way.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Grizzler, I can't stand upright boots either and always use the spoilers from an old pair of race boots in my current boots. In upright boots I feel way too tall and unbalanced and unable to get forward - well in the back seat. I'm lanky and also have 'flamingo legs' as a French boot fitter once put it. That some people need more forward lean is explained very well in Ron LeMaster's book.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Very tricky also to diagnose a problem without seeing it...
Any real instructors popped by yet? I've lost track who is and might be...
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Grizzler wrote:
Top clips and power strap are reasonably tight, top calf fit is never tight enough as I have a very slim leg and even with spoilers etc I can't get as snug a fit as I like..
Apologies if I'm telling you something you already know, but if not already doing so, place the power strap under/behind the outside shell, so directly onto the inner boot....which can help reduce the gap at the back.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Old Fartbag, ? Wrong in my opinion...
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under a new name wrote:
@Old Fartbag, ? Wrong in my opinion...
Many good bootfitters recommend doing this, though it is of course a preference thing. It can put more even pressure along the length of the shin and make the boot flex more accurately (as well as remove some of the space behind the calf) ...maybe CEM might comment, if he's about.
@Old Fartbag, mine physically can't be closed like that. No matter what CEM says. Nor could my previous boots.
But, an after market device - maybe...?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
under a new name wrote:
@Old Fartbag, mine physically can't be closed like that. No matter what CEM says. Nor could my previous boots.
But, an after market device - maybe...?
TBF. CEM did say that it was impossible on some designs, but it was the ideal....but my point was that if it is something that Grizzler can do, it is worth trying in order to minimize the gap, when flexing forwards.
Had a similar experience when using fritischi touring bindings, however much I tried to keep forward I kept getting thrown in the back seat esp when extending up. For me the ramp/delta angle of the boots/bindings was all wrong and dynafits worked a lot better.
Are new boots or skis/bindings giving you a much different delta angle?
Bring it on !!!! Sometimes, just someting clicks. Sometimes I just hate those oh-so-wonderful, isn't-it-so easy people
Seriously, in my book it all helps in the learning process one way or another, now or in the future. Doesn't all makes sense, isn't as good as having said person next to you on the piste, but better than nought.
Thanks.
Generally, to all re boots: all issues which I've played with, thought about, messed with, tried out etc - and they are all pertinent to me so I'm very interested in your comments.
I'd love to blame it all on the dratted boots, ramp angles, lean and so on... But, as I said at the start, I know that I'm doing this (i.e. back weighting when rising, standing, unweighting or whatever) just practicing (as much as one can) at home, whether in bare feet or with boots on (or even in the supermarket queue - aren't I sad!), trying to make ski-type moves of varying kinds, trying to see what various parts of the anatomy are doing, etc. The best that I can get to training at present if not able to get to the joyous snowdome every week +. Don't know what others' views are on this, and I know that it isn't real ski-ing, but again it's sometimes all that there is and there is quite a lot which I feel that I can learn or discover from it (close eyes, dream are descending favourite run in perfect conditions.... . )
So, my thoughts definitely come back to it being something which I'm doing vis a vis stance and body positoning during turns - and following earlier parts of this thread I think, so far, that it's to do with how I hold/position my pelvis and how much I rotate it. I'm so far working on the theory that I have over rotated it (tucked my bum under too much) and don't 'thrust' forward the iliac crests enough (which really feels horrible and un-natural but certainly shifts my weight forward and keeps it there), which also moves forward the front of the upper thighs somewhat. Subtle movements, and you can't see them in ski clothing at all, but they make a lot of difference (I think).
I know, certainly, that adopting this new position is making my leg muscles ache like crazy. Don't know if that's good, bad or just a comment on how a small change is really making quite big ones elsewhere and that what I'm used to just has to be retrained.
Also decided that I'm giving up trying to ski in an easy-looking relaxed and semi-upright stance and going back to my old bit more upper body bent over, agressive, hands forward style; much easier and much more weight control. Just doesn't look so good doing slow slip turns and allegedly-controlled drills!
So, I'll go away and play with things a bit more, try to embed them into memory if they seem to work and hopefully test it out at the slope soon (got a blinking stinking cold, else was going today - hey ho, more YouTube to watch, then... )
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Grizzler wrote:
Bring it on !!!! Sometimes, just someting clicks. Sometimes I just hate those oh-so-wonderful, isn't-it-so easy people
Seriously, in my book it all helps in the learning process one way or another, now or in the future. Doesn't all makes sense, isn't as good as having said person next to you on the piste, but better than nought.
Thanks.
I agree about something that just clicks...so I'll just ramble on, in case I stumble onto something useful....so picking up on some of the issues you've raised, my views are:
Stance.
I believe you are over thinking this.
The main thing, is that you avoid a hollow back..so just make sure it is slightly rounded, along with slightly rounded shoulders as well. Here is Warren Smith talking about the core and how to activate it...if you go to the section labelled "Lumber Management" at 3 min 16 sec, he shows how you can feel the hollowing and arching of the back.
Try doing a short (shallow) traverse on the uphill ski and then start the new turn from this position (ie. downhill ski lifted). It is virtually impossible to start the new turn, from a slowish traverse on the uphill ski, without full commitment down the hill.
Then do the same exercise with only the tip of the downhill ski touching the snow...and then do it with only the tail of the downhill ski touching the snow. Feel what happens to your weight during the transition in these different scenarios....and the tip down is the one that gets the weight forward. Here is instructor training, with this being done as the last exercise (6min 56 secs)
There is nowhere to hide with these drills and it may show up something.
In one of your earlier posts, you said this, "and if there's anything to knock my balance off, like hitting crud or a bump then I'm definitely on my heels and feel as if I'm leaning backwards. "
This is where the push forward/pull back of the feet can help, as it allows a very fast reaction to a sudden speeding up or slowing down, caused by the terrain.
Stacked
Something is wrong when you say, "I know, certainly, that adopting this new position is making my leg muscles ache like crazy."
If you are properly stacked, your skeleton is holding you up in a way that takes a lot of pressure from the muscles.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
Or I could just stick my bum out and bend forward a lot..... Or just take up full-on downhill racing 
)
(At least it'd be a bit less stiff and achy...)
!!!! Sometimes, just someting clicks. Sometimes I just hate those oh-so-wonderful, isn't-it-so easy people 
