I am preparing for the new season and have some doubts about the gear. Since some time I am slowly moving towards freeride/touring and I am considering buying new gear for it. It would be great if I could get some advice and maybe you can point me to something that I did not think about.
About me:
190cm, 85kg
Moderately advanced skiing. On the piste no problem on any of the pistes. I did try some small offpiste but still learning technique there.
My current skis: K2 Rictor 80 all-mountain 2013/2014, tip rocker-camber, width: 80, construction: carbon and wood, (174cm if i remember correctly, I like a little shorter skis)
Plan: Have a ski that would be good for freeride and touring. When touring, mostly 1day, in the weekend. I already booked 8 freeriding days this season.
I am considering few options but not sure what is possible and what is not. Maybe you could help me with this. Buying completely new set is really expensive and I am trying to do some savings where possible.
Option 1) Keep my current skis, change the bindings to something like Marker kingpin, buy boots like Scarpa Maestral and use it for this season. Change bindings to downhill when going with friends for on-piste skiing. Is this option even possible?
Option 2) Keep current skis for on-piste and buy new set for freeride/touring. In the shop, I was told I should not go for more then 105mm wide if I want to keep the balance between freeride and touring and maybe still use it sometime for on-piste when needed.
I was recommended black crows camox freebird. However I saw they are maximum 183cm and 97mm wide. Are they ok for me? What else could be an option?
Hard decisions.... I would be very happy to hear your opinion.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Rado, I'm similar size to you and use Camox Freebird for touring. I'm 190cm, 90kg, have the 183cm skis. Use with Dynafit Radical ST bindings and Maestrale RS boots.
I've skied c40 days on them, and am very happy. They cope well with diverse snow, hard breakable crust has become much less of an ordeal, they are good through crud and powder is lovely. The rocker tip works nicely, slightly raised tail helps with turning, and enough camber for some turning pop too. They hold an edge fairly well on hardpack but this is not a strongpoint (nor do I imagine it was designed to be).
I've skied them mostly off-piste or touring, with maybe 4 days almost all on-piste (although that was in scotland so it can be hard to tell the difference). Were I going to the Alps for a resort week I might want a heavier pair of skis, but for the odd day they're grand.
However... good luck finding them cheap - they're popular and not discounted much. I got a (reasonably) good deal late Jan last year from Glisshop.
Returning to your options...
I'd think twice about putting touring bindings on your existing skis - from my experience, I'd want more than 8omm underfoot off-piste.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
183 is a good length for you for touring. Longer skis are more difficult to manage on switchbacks. And 97 is a very versatile width. Keep your skis for piste and get a touring set-up.
Keep the K2's as rock skies and for piste days.
Then start again. For Freeride look at boots like the 2017 Tecnica Cochise 130, its a new breed of light downhill/touring boots with low tech inserts. This type of boot would act as a one quiver solution.
For skis - go light and all mountain C.100mm underfoot - something like Dynastar Cham 97 2.0 would work well.
bindings kingpins or a frame binding like Salomon Guardian if touring is limited.
@Charliee, +1 Tecnica Boots, have the old ones and they are great.
Back to the OP. I was in a similar situation to you, with regards to skis for this situation, and plumped for some whitedot R.108 (177cm - i'm quite a bit shorter than you)
I'm not sure where you are located but if you don't want to spend a vast amount of money then you'll be able to pick up a pair for a reasonable price either from Whitedot directly or spyder jon. They had an offer on a few weeks back for new 2014 model skis, and Jon set me up with a pair mounted with Marker F12 bindings, so worth asking him.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Thank you very much for some good advices! So, i decided to keep my current skis for piste days.
For the other pair, I have to say that although skis like Black Crows Camox Freebird look quite nice, they are unfortunately too expensive and it is quite hard to find them used or from previous years. I like the suggestions of Down countdown 104 or Whitedot R.108 (normal version).
Then I have few questions:
- how different would be a ski with 98mm to say 108mm?
- R.108 is around 2095grams per ski. Is this not too much for a ski used also for touring? Countdown 104 is around 1900g. Would the difference be noticeable?
- What is the build quality of both manufacturers? Are they comparable or one is better than another?
ps. I am leaving in bavaria and I am usually going skiing every weekend or every second weekend for 1 day. Not sure if this info would be relevant for advices ;p
After all it is free
After all it is free
@Rado, I jumped from a 98mm to a 120mm and had no problems, actually prefer the fatter ski for touring if the snow is deeper as the rocker just glides and keeps the tips up.
There is touring and touring though, my stuff is only up to about 2-3 hrs and (edited lol) 800 - 1000m vert (mainly at the side of the piste for the longer ones).
Last edited by After all it is free on Mon 7-11-16 19:13; edited 2 times in total
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For short ascents you may not notice the difference, but for touring, 1000 m + vertical, long hours, you will notice it. The longer the ascent the more you will be noticing the extra weight. I would rather get more expensive setup if it's lighter than after a season realize that I need a new one. On the other hand, if you decide that touring is not for you, you paid extra for no additional benefit... If you haven't toured before, maybe it's worth renting for your first couple times, at least then you will have a better idea of what you have to look for in your own setup. Dynastar Cham 97 2.0 suggested above is also a good option, will be lighter than any of the two you listed.
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Scarpa wrote:
@Rado, I jumped from a 98mm to a 120mm and had no problems, actually prefer the fatter ski for touring if the snow is deeper as the rocker just glides and keeps the tips up.
There is touring and touring though, my stuff is only up to about 2 hrs and 100m vert (mainly at the side of the piste for the longer ones).
100m vert in 2 hrs !!! have you tried using sklns or do you like moonwalking?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I'm considering the Völkl VTA or VTA Lite. The Fischer Hannibal 100 and Cham 97 2.0are also on the list.
Can a French speaker please do a short translation of this (thanks in advance)
Principally as I haven't skied the Low Down construction yet (probably will this season), and I think it will be more suitable for a pure touring ski rather than the mixture of short tours and lift-served (and occasionally piste) the OP seems to want. Also I have the old version of the ski I linked - which is a bit wider at 107mm - and haven't found the extra weight an issue when touring.
Also much as I'm a fan of big turn radii in ungroomed snow and think it's the way forward, jumping from a turny piste ski to a 41m radius is going to be very weird for the OP, which isn't ideal when still learning to ski offpiste.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@clarky999,
Thanks for the feedback.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
DB wrote:
Scarpa wrote:
@Rado, I jumped from a 98mm to a 120mm and had no problems, actually prefer the fatter ski for touring if the snow is deeper as the rocker just glides and keeps the tips up.
There is touring and touring though, my stuff is only up to about 2 hrs and 100m vert (mainly at the side of the piste for the longer ones).
100m vert in 2 hrs !!! have you tried using sklns or do you like moonwalking?
Laughing here. Missed a 0 off, was actually about 950m, think that took more like 2.5 hrs. I've done the 850m route on fat skis in under 2hrs, but a super fit friend on touring set up has done it in 47 minutes (if I recall correctly), practically running like a biathlon competitor
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:
R.108 is around 2095grams per ski. Is this not too much for a ski used also for touring? Countdown 104 is around 1900g. Would the difference be noticeable?
While I wouldn't CHOOSE the R108 for a pure hut to hut touring ski, I'm planning to go to the top of the Domes de Miage (say 2700m above Les Contamines) on mine this season. I've been to the top of the Grande Paradiso on a heavier set up than them. They are not heavy skis.
The other thing to point out is that you don't lift your skis much when skinning - so the difference of 400g a pair is not that different from carrying an extra 2/3 pint of water (or having a productive trip to the toilet!).
I think you can overstate the importance of shaving those grams.
BTW my R108s are 186s. I can manage uphill kick turns quite easily on them and I'm only 176cm tall! The mounting point is quite far back.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Scarpa wrote:
Laughing here. Missed a 0 off, was actually about 950m, think that took more like 2.5 hrs. I've done the 850m route on fat skis in under 2hrs, but a super fit friend on touring set up has done it in 47 minutes (if I recall correctly), practically running like a biathlon competitor
He probably only did it that quick because he needed to get to the toilet at the top before it got messy.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Rado wrote:
- R.108 is around 2095grams per ski. Is this not too much for a ski used also for touring? Countdown 104 is around 1900g. Would the difference be noticeable?
- What is the build quality of both manufacturers? Are they comparable or one is better than another?
ps. I am leaving in bavaria and I am usually going skiing every weekend or every second weekend for 1 day. Not sure if this info would be relevant for advices ;p
- Lighter is obviously generally better when going uphill, but 2100kg isn't too heavy IMO. Pin tech bindings will make a bigger difference than weight.
- Both are built in the same factory - or were up until this season season anyway (not sure if WD might move to the same new factory?)! And both excellent build quality.
Whereabouts in Bavaria? Quite a few of the Down team are in Innsbruck and I think demos should be possible (email Down if interested).
Seriously though, some of the young ski and cycle racers levels of fitness are amazing, guess hours every day training does pay off
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
jedster wrote:
The other thing to point out is that you don't lift your skis much when skinning - so the difference of 400g a pair is not that different from carrying an extra 2/3 pint of water (or having a productive trip to the toilet!).
I think you can overstate the importance of shaving those grams.
I think that conventional wisdom is that weight on your feet is much more significant than weight on your back (I seem to recall 5 times being the suggested number). Certainly on my tele bindings I find that it makes a significant difference to take the heel springs off (~250g /ski) and put them in my pack for the uphill.
That said, I agree with the sentiment that you can overthink this stuff, and for day trips, I'm quite happy on skis weighing in @2kg.
The 5x thing is for stuff that you are lifting up and down at the end of your legs - boots and the frame and heel piece of frame bindings count.
But you slide your skis forward along the snow, you don't lift them up and down (except on the occasional kick turn) so it doesn't apply to the same extent.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
jedster wrote:
@BenA,
The 5x thing is for stuff that you are lifting up and down at the end of your legs - boots and the frame and heel piece of frame bindings count.
But you slide your skis forward along the snow, you don't lift them up and down (except on the occasional kick turn) so it doesn't apply to the same extent.
I agree with this, going from Fritschi bindings and 4kg touring boots to dynafit and sub 2.5kg touring boots made a massive difference to my skining speed whereas heavier skis didn't seem to make much difference on the way up.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Ehh ski choosing is getting more difficult the more time I spend on it ;p Anyway really good advices here! I appreciate a lot!
I think it might be more versatile to actually have a bit lighter skis then 2100 a pair. Especially, for the touring part. Mostly because it is hard for me to say right now what will be the proportion ski-assisted freeriding vs 'freetouring' with long ascends. Therefore, seems like buying lighter skis is safer bet. While R108 get a lot of good reviews, I think their flagship is the carbonlite version which is around 1700g per ski.
However, today I got a good offer for Black Diamond link 95 with kingpins 10 bindings. It is even lighter ski - 1650g per ski. Did anyone try this ski? I was told it would be a good versatile ski, not that difficult and it is probably position somewhere similar to Dynastar Cham 2.0 97 or Black Crows Camox Freebird. However, I have 2 concerns (1) will this ski be fun for ski-assisted freeriding. (2) It is quite soft ski, I am 85kg and I heard this might be a problem. What exactly can be the problem if the ski is too soft for the weight?
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@Rado,
If you haven't already tried touring then I would sugest you try it first on rental equipment as touring doesn't suit everyone.
To be honest I'd start with boots before skis as skis can be easily rented. What fits your feet is best - have you tried on the Maestrale? Do you want a one boot solution (e.g. 2017 Tecnica Cochise as suggested - better for piste & freeride but heavy for touring).
In answer to your question - soft skis get flappy/unstable at speed and knocked about more in choppy conditions (e.g. refrozen snow / breakable crust). Soft skis tend not to hold a good edge on ice too.
PS do you have safety equipment (Shovel, probe and transceiver ) and do you plan to go on an avalanche training course?
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Mon 7-11-16 20:35; edited 1 time in total
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
BenA wrote:
Certainly on my tele bindings I find that it makes a significant difference to take the heel springs off (~250g /ski) and put them in my pack for the uphill.
If I took my tele heel springs off, the skis would fall off (Hammerheads)
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Rado wrote:
Ehh ski choosing is getting more difficult the more time I spend on it ;p Anyway really good advices here! I appreciate a lot!
I think it might be more versatile to actually have a bit lighter skis then 2100 a pair. Especially, for the touring part. Mostly because it is hard for me to say right now what will be the proportion ski-assisted freeriding vs 'freetouring' with long ascends. Therefore, seems like buying lighter skis is safer bet. While R108 get a lot of good reviews, I think their flagship is the carbonlite version which is around 1700g per ski.
However, today I got a good offer for Black Diamond link 95 with kingpins 10 bindings. It is even lighter ski - 1650g per ski. Did anyone try this ski? I was told it would be a good versatile ski, not that difficult and it is probably position somewhere similar to Dynastar Cham 2.0 97 or Black Crows Camox Freebird. However, I have 2 concerns (1) will this ski be fun for ski-assisted freeriding. (2) It is quite soft ski, I am 85kg and I heard this might be a problem. What exactly can be the problem if the ski is too soft for the weight?
Light and/or soft isn't really a recipe for a versatile ski - they get pushed around in chop and tracked snow and deflect a lot. There ARE downsides to going light.
If you have the budget the carbonlite R108 would likely be a great choice however, as they use some pretty exotic materials to maintain stiffness and dampness in the light package.
FWIW the Downs I linked above are 1800g a ski, and they currently have a discount code open (limited to first 5 customers, and no idea how much discount!): downwithfirstsnow
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Yup, my skis are 2341g each, plus I have pretty heavy bindings. But I really tour up for the ride down so am prepared to make compromises... damned good excuse to get fitter
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:
While R108 get a lot of good reviews, I think their flagship is the carbonlite version which is around 1700g per ski.
ah - sorry. I have the carbonlite version.
still true that I've been up to 4000m on heavier skis that 2100g though
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
KenX wrote:
BenA wrote:
Certainly on my tele bindings I find that it makes a significant difference to take the heel springs off (~250g /ski) and put them in my pack for the uphill.
If I took my tele heel springs off, the skis would fall off (Hammerheads)
I use a homemade tech system with Dynafit toes and an Axl heel, so I can take the heel off completely for long climbs. I feel that this weight off the feet makes quite a difference. Probably a combination of the fact that in reality I do lift my skis a bit, and possibly extra friction if I am genuinely resting them on the snow?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Personally, I’d rent some powder skis/use your own skis on your “freeride” days so you can learn to ski off piste and rent some touring kit to see if you like it. After doing this, you’ll probably have tried a few different skis/set ups and have an idea of what you want/like.
A few things to consider
- Touring is hard work and it’s a lot of slogging for not much skiing. I love it, but am coming from a walking and climbing background so just see skiing as a method of moving through the mountains, admittedly one than makes going down mountains a lot of fun but it’s still a method of transport.
- Skis and kit is very subjective and people generally recommend what they have. Some people loves stiff chargers, some like soft noodles, some insist a turn that isn’t carved is sacrilege, some prefer to “butter” and “slarve” (children mainly, I’ve no idea what those terms really mean).The point being, if you like them, they’re brilliant skis, if you don’t, they’re not, regardless of what your sponsored hero of choice says.
- Light is not always right, it’s a compromise. You need to work out what appeals, many thousands of meters of vert is a day or ripping big lines on the descent. Great skiers who are fit can do both of the same set up, mere mortals may struggle.
My one ski/boot quiver is:
Scarpa Freedom SL
Rossignol Soul 7
Marker Tour F12
I’m an ex-seasonaire who is now a desk jockey and family man in his mid-thirties. The above set up allows me to ski pistes with the kids, do a multiday tour, ski powder and carve some average turns down a piste. It’s not the ideal set up for any of those activities, it does them all pretty well though and it’s a set up that’s a joy to ski.
In short, ski more, try as much off-piste/touring on as many different set ups as possible and by the time you’ve worked put what you want out of your skiing, you’ll know what kit best matches those aspirations.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:
Can a French speaker please do a short translation of this (thanks in advance)
When I'm going ski touring I am going with the VTA 88 which It's a versatile ski with its ski width of 88mm that remains stable and grippy on the way up when the snow is hard packed and a little icy but also provides good floatation on the way down where there might be powder snow.
There is also a light version the VTA 88 lite which does not lose its performance thanks to the 3D construction; thickness where it is needed for performance and thinner in the shovel and the heel to make it more accessible and much lighter.
Both skis have a rocker profile in the shovel. This makes them easy to handle in all the types of snow that we can meet off-piste (i.e. ski touring) during the whole season.
Here's the French version in case someone wants to do their own translation or for learning purposes. You might notice I did not translate the last paragraph but he says the same things he had said in the first one.
Quand je vais aller faire de la rando je vais partir avec le ski le VTA 88 qui va être un ski avec sa largeur au patin de 88mm qui va nous amener une polyvalence à la montée quand on a des traversées sur neige dure un peu glacée, qui reste quand même avec une bonne accroche, Et en descente avec une bonne polyvalence avec une neige qui va par exemple être poudreuse, il va rester avec une bonne portance sur la neige.
Il existe la version allégée le vta 88 lite qui ne perd pas de sa performance grâce à la construction 3D, de l’épaisseur là où il faut pour avoir cette performance, affiné en spatule et en talon qui lui amène cette accessibilité, et une grande légèreté dans ses évolutions.
Ces 2 skis ont un rocker en spatule qui leur donnent une facilite dans toutes les neiges qu’on va pouvoir trouver en hors-piste, donc en randonnée tout au long de la saison.
Le vta 88 c’est le ski que je vais prendre pour aller en rando, pour avoir une polyvalence aussi bien en montée qu’en descente. A la montée quand on va avoir de la neige dure un peu glacée. Par sa largeur de patin de 88mm il va faire qu’on va rester bien stable. Et A la descente une bonne largeur qui va nous permettre d’aller dans toutes ces neiges que l’on peut trouver en hors-piste.
Unfortunately, the guy is just repeating what I assume is in the advertising brochure and not providing any insights.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@fabricem,
Thanks
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Visited an outdoors shop near work here in Vienna and flexed a few touring skis.
The Scott Superguide was really stiff for it's weight, felt more like a normal alpine freeride ski but a lot lighter - might well suit you Rado. (1430 gram / ski @ 184 cm length)
Just to join in the discussion - I've recently invested in some of these for my touring setup (to replace my old but superlight 85mm waisted "Hagan Heats") ....
They are almost identical in size/profile etc to my current piste/slackcountry setup (Salomon Sentinel) which are a really great ski, but weigh in at >2kg per ski so are pretty damn heavy.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
I would be very happy to hear your opinion.
