 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi
This is a perplexing question to me. Please it is not about those tables that say "if you are this weight, your bindings MUST be on this setting."
Backstory: 25 years ago, my first week skiing on real snow, I was in ski school, my bindings were set at 5 by the hire shop, and during that day I had a fall where one ski came off and the other one didn't, and I hurt my knee. Not badly, but enough to worry me. At that time I weighed maybe 9 stone, maybe 9 and a half.
I sought advice from other lady skiers and got this advice: set your skis the most light you can without falling out of them. Try 3.
So I tried 3, and I did not fall out of them, and have been skiing on 3 for the intervening 25 years. I normally ski only one week a year, am not particularly fit and don't have strong legs. I would describe myself as a wary, perpetual intermediate who stays well away from blacks but will do some reds as long as they are not too long.
Last year: floating along a nearly level bit of piste, I was distracted for a moment, caught an edge, over I went, the other ski did not come off and I twisted my knee painfully.
As I lay there winded and just resting up, i was assisted by a person who needed to be convinced that I had not banged my head, and was just winded and resting up. Once convinced of this, he became agitated about my ski bindings. He did not state clearly what he thought, but kept digging at my settings window. I told him that I had not fallen off my ski, and the problem was that one of the skis HAD NOT COME OFF. I won't go into details, but I managed to convince him that I did not want any more of his attention.
But this has left me in a quandry. There is no doubt that I am now closer to 11 stone than 9 stone. The increase has been greater in the last three years, since I turned 60. I have had no trouble with my skis and bindings, I do the Kick Test and the Step Test, I do not fall out of my skis, but here I am again with a twisted knee (I was invalided out for the rest of the week this time with the injury), because one ski came off when I caught it, and the other one didn't come off when I fell, and my leg got injured.
Is this because my binding are not on optimum setting?
If I had started to fall off my ski/s as I got heavier, I would have been convinced to turn up the setting, but this had not happened, and I am now afraid that if I turn them up, I will risk further injury if I fall and my ski does not come off, or risk injury because my ski catches and pulls off too easily. On the whole I fall over once a year, or less.
My more experienced friend told me: This can happen, even today, if you fall a certain way, the ski doesn't come off easily, whatever the setting is. Bindings are not perfect. His experience is that this has always been the case, and still is.
Has anyone got any advice from their own experience?
I'm concerned that I will lose my confidence and have to stop skiing altogether. I must add that I am not a hard or fast skiier, the danger of knee injury from a retained ski is much greater for me than injury from a ski that comes off unexpectedly, though that is not something I want to happen either.
(As I sat in the doctors waiting room in Mottaret, a parade of injured knees came past, all of them big young blokes, and some of them headed for the hospital. They all had "I was really going it some" stories to tell, though, not "I was toddling along gently and I caught an edge." I did meet someone many years ago with the identical story, and he ripped the tendons out of his knee doing just what I was doing ... only he was much bigger and heavier than me, which I would guess puts them more at risk.)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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If you mean your bindings themselves are 25 years old then you need new bindings as they almost certainly aren't indemnified. Otherwise 3 sounds pretty reasonable yo me even for a timid elderly female. A pro can check the Din charts. Sometimes bindings don't release because you aren't exerting enough force in a plane in which the release is activated.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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For context I ski with a very conservative Din and have been left with one or more skis on in incidents such as smashing backwards through piste markers etc.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Your friend is correct, bindings are only designed to release in a few directions. Slow rearwards twisting falls are famous as ACL snappers.
The Knee bindings mentioned above might be a good option for you, they are designed to release in some extra ways to regular bindings.
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If you're (like my mum was) a steady and cautious person, then you're asking your bindings to do something more subtle than those boy-racers are asking of theirs.
If you're hurting your knees, then your options depend on how you view that risk versus the risk of a premature release. Most people would vote to protect their knees. Your technique can help too: some people use stronger settings because of the way they ride.
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Part of the issue is to accept that as skiers knees will get tweaked and hurt - it's just a reality of the equipment we use. While the knee binding may help in certain types of fall it too cannot possibly be foolproof. Doing a whole heap of leg presses or squats ramping up to the ski season is probably more efficient in protecting your knees.
The other thing is training yourself to fall properly - I definitely take more sacrificial falls onto a hip then I strictly need to because the consequences of failing at a recovery from the backseat could be very bad for my knees. For that there is no substitute for practising falling.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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A very interesting and worthwhile thread. I had the same thought as @Dave of the Marmottes that if you've had the same bindings for 25 years you should definitely get new ones.
Like you I ski on bindings set lower than some technicians would recommend. I'm 69 and have (several pairs of) my own skis. I weigh around 9 st 10 and my bindings are generally at 4.
I'm not particularly timid, do ski all pisted runs and do ski moderately fast where appropriate but I try to ski smoothly and have had loads of lessons with a view to being able to ski for a good few years yet. I have one dodgy knee and wear a chunking great knee brace costing over £500 to prevent twisting.
I do fall occasionally, generally when trying something a bit more ambitious but they are usually proper crashes with both skis clicking off satisfactorily. Slow crashes are definitely the worst. I had couple of nasty slow speed snowboard slams catching an edge because I was useless and didn't commit properly to one edge. I gave up boarding after fracturing my pelvis in a ski collision but am much less likely to have that kind of fall skiing because my technique is better.
Point of this ramble is that you might consider investing in some really good private lesson to improve your technique and awareness so you can become more confident. With greater awareness, for example of where your weight is (fore and aft and laterally) you will enjoy your skiing more and be less likely to have those slow "catching an edge" falls which can be so damaging.
And, of course, the very best way to help your knees is to lose weight. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The best set of guidelines for setting your bindings imo are the French AFNOR, an English version was done by Dr. Jonathan Bell of Wimbledon Clinics who posts here and can be downloaded here
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@skimottaret, yep, corresponds with what I use 
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@Wet, what is your shoe/boot size? In addition to your weight, boot length is very important to getting the DIN settings correct
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You know it makes sense.
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If you can ski a week without getting any unexpected binding prereleases while skiing on a Din of 3 then I would say you are fine.
I am 6' 3" and a lot heavier than you, I also have a very defective left knee. I set my left ski to a Din of 4 and the right to a Din of 6. Providing I am skiing correctly I have no problems with prereleases. But if I snowplough in porridge then it may get unexpected releases.
As others have said if your bindings are 25 years old it is time to buy new ones.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Quality lessons (per pam w) / Leg muscles strengthening / Maybe some balance exercises
Difficult but try to learn how to fall safely: 'layer' or spread yourself (superman style!) down, uphill if poss, and prepare to slide a little, avoiding a straight arm impact landing; keep legs together, fairly straight and half-relaxed; stretch out arms; try not to fall backwards but sideways; keeping poles clear (to avoid painful landing on them and a continuing slide); try to keep ski feet/edges up off the slope as you slide so they don't catch and spin or throw you. DIN settings sound fine enough for you, just try and gently get your confidence back - and do tone up the leg muscles - very important! More lessons fewer falls?!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Yes, mention of exercises to strengthen leg muscles - very important. Most of us older women need to do a LOT to get leg muscles in any kind if shape. Need to be sure not to neglect hamstrings.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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One thing to remember is tha basically bindings are not clever. They do not know what is a fall and what is just hard skiing. When a certain amount of force is applied in a certain direction, the binding gives way. That is literally all they do.
So the secret number is one that is higher than any force you ever apply to your ski whilst in use, but lower than the force you apply when you fall.
What this clearly demonstrates is that there will be falls that your bindings don't help. In my experience, a lot of the falls which injure experienced, good skiers are the low speed ones where you're drifting along either not paying attention, or lose an edge or something - because due to the low speed, you won't exert enough force on the binding to get a release.
Hence - you see screwdrivers on chains at most lift stations. the sensible thing is to actually adjust your bindings each day, to the style of skiing. If it's foggy and you can't see more than 10m ahead, you know you're not going to be doing anything too aggressive and can dial the bindings down a few notches. If it's a bluebird pow day and you want to go screaming down hills knee deep in snow without the risk of a ski coming off and having to spend an hour trying to dig it up... Or it's a clear skies day with empty pistes and you want to practice your race-style carving, You can go up a few notches.
To leave a binding set in one place for all eventualities really falls short of the capability of the equipment.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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^while this is reasonable advice for those willing to take responsibility for their own safety with an ability to make binding check part of their routine I don't think it's good advice for the majority of holiday skiers who have never adjusted a binding in their life and are just as likely to forget that they've cranked them up when doing something mellow.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
while this is reasonable advice for those willing to take responsibility for their own safety with an ability to make binding check part of their routine I don't think it's good advice for the majority of holiday skiers who have never adjusted a binding in their life and are just as likely to forget that they've cranked them up when doing something mellow.
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This affected one of my friends who took his skis into be serviced in the UK. The so called ski technician wound the bindings right down to zero (I have no idea what he was thinking about) on the first serious turn of the holiday the binding came completely apart and we spent half an hour seqarching the slope to recover all the bits and rebuilt the binding. It was very fortunate that one of the party had a multi tool in his pocket.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Same thing happened to my Bro in Whistler following a wax and edge. The mountain host who helpfully suggested he shouldn't be adjusting his binding himself at a tool bench received a rather ripe earful.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Most shops will set bindings to 0 after a setup. (I think Jon does when he installs my bindings) BUT a sticker or warning label would be helpful 
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but after an edge and wax? They shouldn't touch the bindings IMV and certainly not without resetting the DIN when the custome rpicks them up.
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sorry missed that bit, does seem odd to wind binders down after a wax.. they may have taken em off to put through grinder when doing the edges though.. Some high end shops will do this when doing a grind...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Most shops will set bindings to 0 after a setup
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I've never seen that done. How weird.
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Not forgetting the possible impact of incorrectly set forward pressure.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Wet, you started a really interesting topic and have received lots of advice. I would be nice if you popped back in to respond
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| ^while this is reasonable advice for those willing to take responsibility for their own safety with an ability to make binding check part of their routine I don't think it's good advice for the majority of holiday skiers who have never adjusted a binding in their life and are just as likely to forget that they've cranked them up when doing something mellow. |
Hmm. It's an interesting argument. Personally I think skiers should understand how to use their safety equipment. As I said the reason they are adjustable is not just so that one binding can service all users, but also so that the user can adjust the binding for the exact purpose. For me it's habit that at the top of the first lift in the morning I assess conditions and if need be I grab a screwdriver from the rack and adjust from yesterday.
But I do get what you're saying and for people who are more casual it's probably a bit daunting adjusting something which is basically the line in the sand between staying with your skis and breaking your legs.
I think it's one of those things I find annoying that the ski instructors never teach. Less annoying though than the fact that ESF never seem to teach brand new skiers how to do their boots up properly, and you chat to brand new skiers who are struggling to get their weight forward because their boots are too loose, or who've had a miserable day with no fun because their feet have gone blue where they've done their boots up like they've done it with a ratchet strap. Maybe I am just being a miserable fart about it.
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@dp, Instructors are advised not to have anything to do with clients' bindings.
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You know it makes sense.
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| johnE wrote: |
This affected one of my friends who took his skis into be serviced in the UK. The so called ski technician wound the bindings right down to zero (I have no idea what he was thinking about) on the first serious turn of the holiday the binding came completely apart and we spent half an hour seqarching the slope to recover all the bits and rebuilt the binding. It was very fortunate that one of the party had a multi tool in his pocket. |
Backing the springs off to zero if the skis are to be stored is the correct thing to do. It prevents the springs getting a 'set'.
Not as important as it once was because we are better at making springs.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
It prevents the springs getting a 'set'.
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What does that mean? Springs are made of steel. Steel does not creep. If it did then bridges would start to sag, reinforced contrte would crack etc.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@johnE, I see the spring 'set' issue meaning ALL THE COMPONENTS within the binding release mechanism and not just the steel spring. Perhaps a lesser issue today due to increasingly sophisticated engineering plastics / higher precision and repeatability in manufacturing processes / widespread universal adoption of computional stress / strain analysis in everyday products. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@TQA, ah, yes, I used to do that. Not for may years however.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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for me, 6 = chance of pre-release when skiing hard and fast on rutted 'race' courses, 7 = never comes off at all.
I normally opt for 6
5'10", 70kg, skiing for 30 years (but still not very good)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I weigh about 75kg and am a moderate skier. My bindings last year were set to 4.5 and I did not have any releases except when I fell. At 72 I don't want knee injuries if I fall because the skis have not released. Equally I don't want falls because a ski has come off.
Obviously I don't ski as hard as red27 o I get away with lower settings.
I also try to test the release settings by kicking the the tail of the ski to check it releases
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I found after much trial and error that at 9 and 9.5 (2 different skis) I am fine off piste, if I lower them even slightly I get too many pre releases especially skiing bumpy and hole filled terrain where you often need to hit walls and mounds of snow (not often the fluffy powdery type). I just always start low and work up, but will adjust for conditions if doing something different. For the adjustable toe pieces on the touring bindings getting a nice 0.5mm gap between the plate and the boot sole is important too.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@red 27, @Rabbie, @Scarpa, DIN charts says 6.0, My Volkl Marker IPT Wide Rides are on 6.0 ( IMO always behaving impeccably ) but my newest Salomon's Z12 D's, until i cranked them upto 8.0, were instantly popping me out without any warning ... but on 8, i fear a slow fall - set on 7.0 for indoor dome but even at this i can't 'kick' them off when stationary as i can the Volkls on 6.0.
I should keep reducing the Salomon setting gradually for indoor domes to be safe really. At 6.5, still they booted me off at the merest jolt .
Uncertain if i'll ever stand in earnest on my old Volkl's AC30. If i do i'd better make sure those old bindings are serviced / safe.
I would sell them off BUT, i can only just see the smudged / missing character numbers with a magnifier - so the bindings are inherently unsafe for anybody else.
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My first soft (B2 Bandit) ski worked fine at DIN 6 for me, changing skis led to an immediate jump up to 8. Different bindings, flex in the ski, how the ski transmits sudden forces to the binding etc will all have some effect. The charts are only a rough guide. If the OP can possibly have a decent chat with a good experienced ski tech and get them to have a look at how your bindings are releasing it may give you some peace of mind.
On piste I hardly ever lose a ski even in crashes as I seem to always spin on my back like a turtle and keep the skis off the ground as I slow down. A head over heels tumble however lets them pop off no problem if they catch, but most injuries I have seen tended to be the ski catching when the person has almost come to a stop, just not enough force is available to pop the binding, it's the cliched slow twisting fall.
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| Scarpa wrote: |
| I found after much trial and error that at 9 and 9.5 (2 different skis) I am fine off piste, if I lower them even slightly I get too many pre releases especially skiing bumpy and hole filled terrain where you often need to hit walls and mounds of snow (not often the fluffy powdery type). I just always start low and work up, but will adjust for conditions if doing something different. For the adjustable toe pieces on the touring bindings getting a nice 0.5mm gap between the plate and the boot sole is important too. |
Wow - you are way less weighty than me but I generally ski at a DIN of 8 (or 9 tops) and almost never get a pre-release (except where the fwd pressure has gone off on Rossis or I've cracked the heel track). Marker Griffons and Axial/Axial 2 for the most part.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Scarpa wrote: |
| I found after much trial and error that at 9 and 9.5 (2 different skis) I am fine off piste, if I lower them even slightly I get too many pre releases especially skiing bumpy and hole filled terrain where you often need to hit walls and mounds of snow (not often the fluffy powdery type). I just always start low and work up, but will adjust for conditions if doing something different. For the adjustable toe pieces on the touring bindings getting a nice 0.5mm gap between the plate and the boot sole is important too. |
Please how is this plate/sole gap acheived ,Ive got Marker 14 and cant find any adjustment, this whole thread has been fascinating. Thanks
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FAQ
and often one ski stays on. Mostly I fall over doing something ridiculous while standing still, like my pole getting stuck under the ski. Last time I was skiing I set off to go, twisting round and leaning forwards facing down the hill, only to find my skis weren't following as they were crossed over or something. Did a lovely pirouette with both boots coming out the bindings fortunately. 
I've also started doing more jumps and drops and found that they still pop my skis when I get them wrong at those levels so I really don't want to back them off.