 Poster: A snowHead
|
Cliff paintings from 10,000 to 20,000 years ago, found in the Xinjiang region of China, are claimed to demonstrate the earliest known use of skis.
If the discovery of Chinese researchers is accepted internationally it will change the history of skiing. Previously-discovered cave paintings of skiers in Rodoy, Norway, are estimated to date from 2500 BC.
The new discovery has been made in the Altay mountains, which extend approximately 1,200 miles from the Gobi to the West Siberian Plain, through Chinese, Mongolian, Russian and Kazakh territory. Wang Bo, a researcher with the Xinjiang Autonomous Regional Museum, said he had seen a picture of four people chasing cattle and horses, three of them on a long rectangular board with poles in their hands.
This report from Reuters.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
P.S. This is the Rodoy painting, which can be found in a number of ski history books:
Photo: www.aspenhistory.org
It'll be fascinating to see how the Chinese painting(s) compares.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
This is not a xenophobic comment ....but blimey they seem to have a claim to have invented everything going! Should'nt it be that the Mongolians or which ever tribe/nation who occupied that land in that period had the true claim? After all (I think I am right in this?) China is relatively modern nation, formed from the conquest/amalgamation of many tribes/nations. In the same way that Britain was formed from the amalgamation of the 'Angles' and the 'Saxon' tribes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Lorraine, there was a recognisable and civilised China long before Britain or England, I'm afraid! However, you're probably right to regard the modern territory of China as an extended empire encompassing non-Chinese nations. As for inventing things, they really did get there before the West for many items. The interesting thing is that they had a disastrous habit of uninventing things. I think the movable type printing press is an example, the 'invention' and rapid exploitation of which in the West arguably was the biggest factor in the its rise to cultural, scientific, economic, and military leadership. It was in fact invented in China about 400 years before Gutenberg, but was later suppressed because it was thought to be too dangerous for the ruling class's interest.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Quote: |
there was a recognisable and civilised China long before Britain or England, I'm afraid!
|
laundryman, I wasn't comparing them in terms of time scales just the way in which they were formed. What I was trying inadequately to say was that this claiming of inventions by the 'Peoples Republic' seems rather unhealthy and suggests a need to justify ones importance as a nation. There is another rather large continent across the Atlantic comprising of 'united' states that does the same thing!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Seems skis ARE getting shorter - 'Rodoy Mans' B2's seem to be well over 3 metres! - with an unusual 'mogul bow' 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well everyone in the Western world was slating them about Acupuncture but now apparently there maybe something in it after all 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
are you saying that the drawings are of giant acupuncture needles?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Xinjiang is a region which China invaded, and has rewritten the history books to claim it has always been a part of "The Motherland". Same story for Tibet, Inner Mongolia, and Manchuria. The indiginous Uigher people are genetically related to Europeans, not Han Chinese. They are Muslims who suffer oppression at the hands of the Chinese. Since the US declared the phoney "war on terror", the Chinese have carte-blanche to arrest/torture/execute these Muslims as they see fit.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
I had wondered if something like that was nearer to the truth xyzpaul, how do you know so much about this region?
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
It looks like a pic of the first man to play the sax on skis, so two firsts to China.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Mon 23-01-06 17:02; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Actually, I think it is a rabbit not a man at all!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
Are we sure this isn't a canoeist (kayakist??) wearing bunny ears and bearing a broken paddle??
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Lorraine, I recently read Wild West China, which is a very readable history of Xinjiang and it covers the situation today too. The Uighurs' plight is largly unknown, and the Xinjiang freedom movement is disjointed and lacking a strong and visible leader such as the Dalai Lama.
Four thousand year old mummified bodies have been discovered preserved in the sandy deserts of the region. Photos of Cherchen Man are here. Don't know if he skied though!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
The Norwegians have just accepted China's claim. A spokesman for the Norwegian Ski Museum said "Well I'll be büggered, after looking at the Rodoy painting a bit more closely we realized it has 'made in China' on one of the skis" 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
First time I've seen that word with an umlaut - I must ask an Austrian how it's pronounced.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Lorraine, it is right and proper that China should state facts as they discover them and if they go against the grain of our western preconceptions of the world order, we'll just have to grow-up. It would be different if you were accusing them of inventing history in this respect.
You are right though that China was once many nations. It has a population of 1.3billion, and compared to Western Europe's 350million, it is self-evident that equal diversity once existed. However the China of today was already recognisable 2200 years ago when Qin Shi Huang united it. There has been a large amount of integration of the various nations particularly within each region of China, though of course this is far from universal and notable exceptions exist, in any case sufficient for China to be largely justified in considering itself one nation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
slikedges, what I was enquiring about was the claiming of ideas, inventions etc. as ones own. When infact at the period of time that they were actually discovered/thought of, the political geography of the world was different and the tribe/nation who were in residence were the true claimants. It would be like us (the British) claiming to have invented binary notation because India was part of the British Empire at the time that Boolean algebra was being developed (I believe the the ancient Indian mathematician Pingala did this at the same time as he discovered of the idea of zero - 3BC).
It is indeed right and proper that people should state the facts as they are and not try to reinvent history to suit their own political agenda. Facts should not be tampered with or else they are no longer facts but propoganda. So yes I am accusing them of inventing history - their own!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Lorraine, yes, but there's no point in telling us that some people 10000 years ago invented something in a nation at the time referred to as something no-one today would recognise. We would want a modern reference, like where that part of the world is in modern terminology, so there was some context to it. China has been around plenty long enough to justify most of it's territory. It would be different if while the Germans were occupying France for 5 years or so they claimed a French discovery as being German.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Which royal 'we' are you refering to? I personally would prefer to be told the name of the tribe/nation, where it is geographically and if neccesary where that is now in terms of modern political geography.
The best examples I can give of countries re-writing history to satisfy ideological beliefs are Stalinist Russia and Nazi Germany and look what happened there!
| Quote: |
| Facts should not be tampered with or else they are no longer facts but propoganda. |
. Perhaps if we had a better understanding/appreciation of the true historical development of nations/people we wouldn't have so much misunderstanding now. Spain is a case in point, Spanish children are not taught about the invasion and rule of the Moors and what this civilisation brought to Spain and yet this period in their history preceeded/instigated their reign for a period as one of the great powers of Europe. Perhaps if they and we had known a bit more, the ignorance about Arabs for most Europeans would not be as it is. We then wouldn't be so ready to believe the boogeyman stories that those with an anti-arabic political agenda like to ferment. This is just one example of historical facts becoming propoganda, I'm sure there are many more and as I'm also sure that you read all of my posting, you will no doubt have noticed that the Chinese weren't the only country that I mentioned.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lorraine,
| Quote: |
Which royal 'we' are you refering to?
|
Now, now, keep it civilized. I suspect most people have less of an interest in human migration and settlement patterns or extinct nations than you. I'd've thought most would just be happy to know that it was in the general vicinity of somewhere they can conceive of.
Anyway, sorry, but I fail to see the relationship between the quite reasonable points you've just made and the as yet not fully substantiated nor unrefuted claim, that the first humans to ski did so on what today is widely accepted as geopolitically China 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Quote: |
| we'll just have to grow-up. |
pot and kettle?
Sorry if my tone offends I was actually enjoying the discussion with you but I must say your first comment (as quoted) threw me a bit so perhaps that is why my reply was a bit sharp.
I'm not anti-chinese by the way it is the principle of the action I think is wrong. So many countries have done this over time (the British are just as culpable), I just wonder to what extent these political bits of 'propogandering' have had on the actions of nations and the support of the populace for them. The invasion of Iraq being just one example, if the populace hadn't been so ignorant about the historical facts maybe they would have been a bit slower to support the government and then they (the government) would have to think twice before acting.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
slikedges,
| Quote: |
| China has been around plenty long enough to justify most of it's territory. |
Not true for Tibet.
Tibet represents 20% of China's area, and was an independent country when it was invaded just 56 years ago.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
