You should have a tab for the zip to sit in to prevent said issues?
The other side of the zip should always be partially open in order for the air bag to be deployed.
In my case the zipper is in its "garage" , the yellow coloured teeth in the zip are open and protected by the Velcro, the zip end is stowed and held by further Velcro , but the zip gradually opens from the yellow teeth end . Like every run. My suspicion is poor packing /installation rather than defective zip.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
With the design of the bag the pack size for the inflation system is pretty compact. My guess would be that it may have been poorly packed after a test activation? Did you re pack it your self?
I have found a link for a video demonstarting the re packing technique. It is in french but you should get the idea.
Hopefully after re packing / wrestling the air bag it will resolve the problem.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Fud wrote:
@bar shaker, glad to hear your Ascent 22 performed well for you.
Did you have any issues with the air bag zip and Velcro closure opening unintentionally??
I've used it for approx 17 days now. No issues at all, regardless of how much gear I have in it. At times it has been very full.
The video is interesting. I've had mine all open, to fully learn about it and inspect it. I always used to do the same with my lifevests, so thought I would with my AVI too. I would want to get the air out a bit more meticulously than the chap in the video did. It doesn't take long but can reduce the re-packed size by 50% when done right.
With the design of the bag the pack size for the inflation system is pretty compact. My guess would be that it may have been poorly packed after a test activation? Did you re pack it your self?
I have found a link for a video demonstarting the re packing technique. It is in french but you should get the idea.
Hopefully after re packing / wrestling the air bag it will resolve the problem.
I get your point, but I will be talking to the retailer. As Far as I am concerned , the kit should be "good to go" on receipt from the shop.
What I don't want to do is be arsing about packing repacking if it is in fact a defective zip. As I said higher up, there is no discernible; difference between mine and my wife's (bar back length) - yet mine opens constantly. So much easier to return it and start again I think.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@mishmash, If it has never been deployed, then I would definitely return it. Otherwise, the internals could get damaged
The yellow section on the Ascent is quite near the edge and well protected. Maybe this has been changed from the earlier models.
Do you include the Arc'teryx Voltair when you say "Jetforce"? With the number of incidents of people caught with a canister bag and NOT pulling the trigger, do you not think there may be some reluctance to pull the trigger with a single fire canister and do you not see any benefit in being able to have multiple firings with a bag that's repackabale in the field?
Genuine questions for someone who is still deciding........
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@galpinos, I think you should handle one before you buy one. These packs are seriously heavy, even before you put 3kg of kit in it.
Besides, one bag deployment a day would be more than enough for me!
After all it is free
After all it is free
bar shaker wrote:
@galpinos, I think you should handle one before you buy one. These packs are seriously heavy, even before you put 3kg of kit in it.
I will, just making plans (spending money I haven't got) for next winter. I've already got more than 3kg of excess weight strapped to my middle so keen not too add too much but am willing to take a weight penalty if there are definite benefits. I do less touring and now more shortish hikes to skiable terrain.
bar shaker wrote:
Besides, one bag deployment a day would be more than enough for me!
As I understand it, there have been multiple (I have no numbers to hand so I may be miss remembering/over-egging it) instances of avalanche victims with none activated airbags. One of the theories is that, as the slide starts is feels benign, just a little sluff, the skier goes to pull the trigger, decides not to as it's only a small a slide then is engulfed and the opportunity is gone. One of the reasons for the reluctance to pull the trigger is that once deployed, you've got an inflated airbag so, should it have been a false alarm, you look a plonker and now have a redundant ABS system. Can you even deflate them in the field? In addition to that, people aren't used to actually pulling the trigger. They might do one test pull when they buy it but four years later that seems a distant memory. I know some US shops do "inflate your bag" sessions where you can get your canisters refilled or free after doing test pulls, to encourage people to actually experience inflating the bag. Do Euro shops o this, is there a Euro equivalent?
With a battery system, you can do lots of test firing, get really used to the system and if you get caught you can pull the trigger at the slightest slip, safe i the knowledge that if it is a false alarm, you can repack it easily and then continue skiing with a fully functioning pack.
This may all be conjecture/dangly bits but worth considering. Feel fee to shoot me down in flames!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
I have an ABS bag and constantly practice grabbing the trigger with the safety strap over it while skiing. The only time I almost pulled it in anger was indeed a small slide that took my legs out but stopped after several metres. I had grabbed the trigger with a vice like grip the instant I saw the crack shoot across the snow so doubt that I would have lost the opportunity. I think that most people just instinctively forget about the bag in the heat of the moment and once they are tumbling it is hard to get to the trigger. BTW, ABS bags are easy to deflate.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
galpinos wrote:
As I understand it, there have been multiple (I have no numbers to hand so I may be miss remembering/over-egging it) instances of avalanche victims with none activated airbags. One of the theories is that, as the slide starts is feels benign, just a little sluff, the skier goes to pull the trigger, decides not to as it's only a small a slide then is engulfed and the opportunity is gone. One of the reasons for the reluctance to pull the trigger is that once deployed, you've got an inflated airbag so, should it have been a false alarm, you look a plonker and now have a redundant ABS system. Can you even deflate them in the field? In addition to that, people aren't used to actually pulling the trigger. They might do one test pull when they buy it but four years later that seems a distant memory. I know some US shops do "inflate your bag" sessions where you can get your canisters refilled or free after doing test pulls, to encourage people to actually experience inflating the bag. Do Euro shops o this, is there a Euro equivalent?
With a battery system, you can do lots of test firing, get really used to the system and if you get caught you can pull the trigger at the slightest slip, safe i the knowledge that if it is a false alarm, you can repack it easily and then continue skiing with a fully functioning pack.
This may all be conjecture/dangly bits but worth considering. Feel fee to shoot me down in flames!
The Scott and Avabag systems allow and encourage you to do "dry" test pulls so you can feel the handle position and required pull strength to fire it . Both come with a cocking key which takes about 40 secs -1 min to recock.
The major issue remains weight - if it is really heavy then you are disinclined to take it in my experience.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
For mammut/snowpulse is also a little tool that you insert instead of the cylinder to test the tigger mechanism.
With some elbow grease I can then test fire as much as I like. I also read about people taking the empty cylinder and pump in their case on the plane if going to a place where new cylinders were scarce.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
mishmash wrote:
The Scott and Avabag systems allow and encourage you to do "dry" test pulls so you can feel the handle position and required pull strength to fire it . Both come with a cocking key which takes about 40 secs -1 min to recock.
I have done this with my bag. It was nice to get a feel for the pull force required without actually having to eject the airbag.
Scarpa wrote:
I think that most people just instinctively forget about the bag in the heat of the moment and once they are tumbling it is hard to get to the trigger.
I had a bit of a slide in Livigno about a month ago (stood on a riverbed full of snow, the layer on top fractured and I just fell down this chute of snow).
As you say, it mainly consisted of this...
1. skis fell out from underneath me. I think "er what's going on??"
2. (half a second later) I am on my back bottom
3. (half a second after that) there is white just everywhere. I do mean everywhere. I still haven't worked out what's going on
4. I am instinctively digging my skis in to slow down, because that's what you do right? It still hasn't occurred to me the snow is moving too.
5. It finally occurs to me what I think is happening about 1 second before I stopped; I did reach for the handle at this point, but then promptly I came to a stop.
6. I stop, I look around, look at the snow pack and realise exactly what's happened.
(7. Spent an hour looking for the ski which disappeared in the process.)
So basically, I'm not saying people can't remain composed and pull the handle - as people have proven, but as you say it's perfectly possible to be in that situation and be so startled by what happens that all thoughts of ABS bags and what not just get pushed to one side until your brain finally computes WTF is going on! I did get to the handle eventually but I think maybe 3-4 seconds of cacking my pants happened first. (Realistically mind could have been any length of time, really not sure if time slowed down or sped up).
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Mon 20-02-17 21:15; edited 2 times in total
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
The reason that I sold the ABS bag I had and got a different one was the weight. I am not really a tourer but do short hikes for access and the ABS bag I had weighed 3.5kg with carbon cylinder but no actual stuff in it! Was incredibly heavy and the ABS kit took up most of the 26L capacity and with all your avalanche kit and spare layer etc in it weighed well over 5kg.
I wanted to get an Avabag orginally hence my comments earlier in the thread but it was fairly expensive and during my search happend to get a lightweight Mammut protection bag at 60% off from Bergzeit. That weighs less than 2.5kg with the carbon cylinder and the bag takes up much less of the space. Not many features and the outer fabric seems a bit thin but held up despite lots of tree bashing on my last trip and looks unused.
The above about the ability to rearm the trigger with a tool so you can test fire without the cylinder is also useful so you know where the handle is and what force is required before it is actually needed!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
What I do sometimes is when skiing off piste as a thought pops into my mind about an avi or potential risk I shoot my hand to the handle location. This embeds the behavioural response, it makes a big difference when it is an automatic process that you don't really have to think of.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
galpinos wrote:
...
As I understand it, there have been multiple (I have no numbers to hand so I may be miss remembering/over-egging it) instances of avalanche victims with none activated airbags. One of the theories is that, as the slide starts is feels benign, just a little sluff, the skier goes to pull the trigger, decides not to as it's only a small a slide then is engulfed and the opportunity is gone. One of the reasons for the reluctance to pull the trigger is that once deployed, you've got an inflated airbag so, should it have been a false alarm, you look a plonker and now have a redundant ABS system. Can you even deflate them in the field? In addition to that, people aren't used to actually pulling the trigger. They might do one test pull when they buy it but four years later that seems a distant memory. I know some US shops do "inflate your bag" sessions where you can get your canisters refilled or free after doing test pulls, to encourage people to actually experience inflating the bag. Do Euro shops o this, is there a Euro equivalent?
With a battery system, you can do lots of test firing, get really used to the system and if you get caught you can pull the trigger at the slightest slip, safe i the knowledge that if it is a false alarm, you can repack it easily and then continue skiing with a fully functioning pack.
This may all be conjecture/dangly bits but worth considering. Feel fee to shoot me down in flames!
I'm not sure there's a huge difference in the mentality of someone wearing a gas air bag and a fan one, if you feel a plonker pulling the handle in a false alarm the end result is the same (albeit the fan can be reused in field). Packing away and deflating an ABS bag is easy with 2 valves to press and then compressing the bags but does need to be folded correctly.
There still are problems on/off with airlines and bags which would probably less with the fan bags (although ive had no experience personally flying with one)
My concern with purchasing a new ABS bag at the moment is are they going to continue supporting the canister and explosive handle device that's been defacto for so long. They rather quietly introduced the P.ride system with electronic rather than explosive activation and a different carbon cylinder. Also other manufacturers who previously used ABS technology (ortovox / arva / etc) have developed there own bags with ?incompatible canisters. I think one of the main problems is the plethora of different canisters will lead to people leaning towards fan bags in addition to the travel question.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
The new Ortovox system has no electronics at all. The handle needs a firm tug and the pin breaks a seal in the cannister top. It is very simple and I liked this.
If the ability to fire multiple times was that important to you, you could buy one or even two spare carbon cannisters and carry them. You could have the same capacity as a fan bag, it would still weigh less and it would still cost less.
What really put me off fans was what happens to the snow that gets blown into the bag? Can it thaw, back in your apartment and then re-freeze on the first lift, next time out?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
bar shaker wrote:
If the ability to fire multiple times was that important to you, you could buy one or even two spare carbon cannisters and carry them. You could have the same capacity as a fan bag, it would still weigh less and it would still cost less.
While true the problem is the airlines only let you carry one cylinder.
bar shaker wrote:
What really put me off fans was what happens to the snow that gets blown into the bag? Can it thaw, back in your apartment and then re-freeze on the first lift, next time out?
Interesting point, I recall a couple of online mentions of failures of jetforce bags to inflate due to vents being blocked by ice. Having said that I can't find them online now and both were very veiled in what they said.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
mishmash wrote:
Fud wrote:
Ah, well that is interesting @mishmash.
I also have the Avabag Freerider 22 and had exactly the same problem during a recent off piste week. I've been looking for examples of other people having the same problems hence my query about the Ascent 22 which I assume has a similar bag release system.
I'm also thinking about returning mine, its completely compromised as far as I'm concerned and have no idea how it achieved TUV certification with such a flawed closure system.
Any other similar experiences out there??
I used it every day for 5 days - 1st 2 days v v full . My control was Mrs MM who was using a Freedider 20 S and had no probs. I compared and contrasted and some issues were different - there is a zipper end tab that compromises a velcro tab if not tucked away and i thought it was that - but ultimately it wasn't. Was with a IFGMA guide who was seriously unimpressed!
Having said that , 20S Freerider was fine . Will be looking for an Ascent 30 now though!
Anyone know if this issue has been sorted? Also any views generally comparing the freerider with the ascent?
If I were buying one now, I'd get one of those electric ones.
Two of my mates have them and we've been through airports in UK, Austria, Switzerland and USA carrying them as hand luggage without any issue at all. My compressed gas canister is a total PITA by comparison.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Good price on the ortovox freerider though, pretty tempted to go for it, but I hear what you're saying.
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Poster: A snowHead
