 Poster: A snowHead
|
....accusing another British organisation of working illegally on the pistes. In this case it's the British Ski Academy in les Houches, near Chamonix, see http://www.planetski.eu/news/7588
Time to stock up on the popcorn.....
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Im chuffin speechless !!! Can anyone defend this action in not being against protectionism..
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
No surprise, although it always occurs to me that since they're so protective of their instructing businesses that they might actually be better at skiing...... 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Maybe "the French" just don't like 50 something men from Surrey 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Yes, I only scanned the latest on the other thread the other day… but didn't laundryman, who I think is a 50 something man from Surrey, say he was complained about too…  Though I think that might have been a Brit who complained rather than a French person...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I suggest he take his ski academy to Italy and all his students can spend their money there!
Why are the French so bloody minded?
Ouch!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
send in the military lets invade 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
@Ouch!, are "the Italians" generally cool with this stuff? I'm sure I remember Wayne saying they were all getting checked and booted off the mountains if they didn't meet requirements… that was a while ago though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
It's their country and their laws, they should be respected.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
This makes me sad. We know Malcolm and our youngest,Ollie, went to the BSA for several seasons. He is a top man, an awesome skier and coach, has huge experience, employs talented and motivated race trainers. His motivation is all about the kids and helping them become the best they can and hopefully finding a champ en route. Ollie is racing in FIS now and although will never be an alpine champ his race training he received at BSA will always be invaluable. The BSA is not a ski school and has been operating out of Les Houches for years. I've spent a lot of time piste side there and chatted to locals and none of them had a problem with the BSA, indeed the lifties and the ESF guys who have helped with races such as the Interschools,organised by Malcolm, have a lot of admiration for the whole team. This sucks!
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Minion1980 wrote: |
| It's their country and their laws, they should be respected. |
Surely EU law and freedom of movement for employment is king?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
They'd probably get short shrift in Italy too.maybe Austria would be more welcoming?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| GlasgowCyclops wrote: |
| Surely EU law and freedom of movement for employment is king? |
This.
The French (and the Germans) are currently playing hardball with David Cameron over freedom of movement rules, and, along with Germany, were the driving force for creating the rules in the first place.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
Maybe it was Don "master" Bates did for Erskine too? Just a Pull rouge.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| GlasgowCyclops wrote: |
| Minion1980 wrote: |
| It's their country and their laws, they should be respected. |
Surely EU law and freedom of movement for employment is king? |
You seem to forget that the UK is the only country in Europe to actually implement most EU laws
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Could the point be one of work permits rather than qualifications? I've read somewhere here that BAS are employing more North American coaches. This is a rreal minefield in terms of making sure the permit is specific and every i and t has to be crossed exactly. Our HR people are having a few problems because we have someone working for us who is quite simply brilliant, but has the wrong kind of work permit. They have to return to their homeland and reapply for the correct type of permit.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Makes me more determined not to ski in france ever again...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Also the promotion of 'health' exempt member states from following EU law in some circumstances eg in this case the instructors are not suitably qualified ergo unsafe, dangerous to health 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Samerberg Sue wrote: |
| Could the point be one of work permits rather than qualifications? I've read somewhere here that BAS are employing more North American coaches. This is a rreal minefield in terms of making sure the permit is specific and every i and t has to be crossed exactly. Our HR people are having a few problems because we have someone working for us who is quite simply brilliant, but has the wrong kind of work permit. They have to return to their homeland and reapply for the correct type of permit. |
My guess would be that this is a work permit issue.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| yorkshirelad wrote: |
| Makes me more determined not to ski in france ever again... |
I'm sure they'll miss you greatly
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
This is probably more about work permits, as the BSA were actually supported by the ESF who are normally the complainants in cases such as Simon Butler. The BSA is a residential (and outlier) training establishment for racers and has been working in the area for a very long time, and they are very well regarded, and its certainly not a case of taking work away from the ESF as they work together over (such as the very recent) races that the BSA host.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The PlanetSki article quotes several as saying it's about qualifications and doesn't mention work permits. Its reports are normally pretty scrupulous. I wonder if there's some tension here between the Les Houches ESF and the wider organisation (although I assume that the Gendarmes don't have to wait for a complaint to make checks).
Maybe they're having a go because SB's daughter won a couple of races at the recent Anglo-Scottish championship!
It's all madness.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
after experiencing there holier than thou behaviour in les houches on more than one occasion it wouldn't surprise me if Eric Fournier who owns a couple of places down there decided to target them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
If you take a school trip to Paris and speak in to the microphone on the coach telling the children what someof the famous buildings are, you get stopped and fined for not being an 'official guide' and having the correct qualifications.....
That's French officialdom for you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| pam w wrote: |
| They'd probably get short shrift in Italy too.maybe Austria would be more welcoming? |
There are already number of very similar setups in Italy and Austria. The ones I know all have excellent working relationships with the local ski schools and lift companies - as do BSA in Les Houches from what I've seen over the past four or five years we've been there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
The French restricting free trade...
British immigrants roaming the globe and taking locals' jobs...
Surely not
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Minion1980 wrote: |
| yorkshirelad wrote: |
| Makes me more determined not to ski in france ever again... |
I'm sure they'll miss you greatly |
I doubt it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| Minion1980 wrote: |
| It's their country and their laws, they should be respected. |
Bollocks. The French like to run roughshod over the EU rules/laws when it suits them but also like to force other countries to toe the EU line, again, when it suits them. It is very much a heads I win tails you lose scenario with them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| PowderAdict wrote: |
| GlasgowCyclops wrote: |
| Minion1980 wrote: |
| It's their country and their laws, they should be respected. |
Surely EU law and freedom of movement for employment is king? |
You seem to forget that the UK is the only country in Europe to actually implement most EU laws |
Surely not???
I thought all of of European neighbours were consistent in applying their rules...
Sooner we exit the EU the better!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
I realise that my reply may not be popular.
I too was sceptical until I did a bit of research. The British Ski Academy website plays on patriotism and achievements of which there are many. It is British Registered Company (No 03268288) whose list of Directors is not up to date on its website. It makes much of being a coaching establishment but (apart from the mention of the chance of a bursary) it is charging for its services, it is a business.
Now coaching is teaching but maybe at a different level; TDC's (the home of our very own Steve Angus) website plays hard on the term coaching - so really its just a play on words for teaching, instructing, training - and perhaps a little marketing spin. In simple terms you are paying BSA for a ski lesson.
The instructors are based in France and therefore need to be qualified to teach in France as they are paid.
The police in any country are there to enforce the law (it doesn't matter if we thank that law is an ass) so if the BSA's staff are not qualified they are breaking the law and should expect to face the consequences. On a different level the speed limit in France on a motorway is 81mph - this would not be a defence on the M20 it is the law!
Again, if I may, I will refer to the TDC website which is scrupulous in detailing the staff's qualifications and their legality in France. The BSA staff list does not mention qualifications at all - just achievements.
So, if they are found guilty of breaking the law then it is unequivocal.
Now to the tricky bit of equivalence of qualifications. It is no use protesting and invoking the wrath of the headline grabbers at the Express or the Fail you have to prove that you have the right. So, you could do this yourself or encourage the national body that issued your qualification to grow a pair and take it to whichever European Court is the appropriate one (sorry I'm not a lawyer) and sort this out for good.
Meanwhile stop whining and let the 100s of snowsports instructors (I could name a score in Tignes alone) that have taken the trouble, time and money to get qualified to teach in France to get on with their jobs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| chocksaway wrote: |
I realise that my reply may not be popular.
|
I thought it was very well reasoned.
I think it will only be unpopular with a small number of French hating "The French are at it again" , EU hating, Colonel Blimps on here. The sort for whom it must be galling that they have to cross from dear old blighty, leave their Daily Mail behind, to get to where the white stuff is.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
@chocksaway, well said.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| emwmarine wrote: |
| chocksaway wrote: |
I realise that my reply may not be popular.
|
I thought it was very well reasoned.
I think it will only be unpopular with a small number of French hating "The French are at it again" , EU hating, Colonel Blimps on here. The sort for whom it must be galling that they have to cross from dear old blighty, leave their Daily Mail behind, to get to where the white stuff is. |
Yeah cos that's exactly what the population of this site is. I don't agree with chocksaway's analysis because by my understanding BSA is very far from being a ski school and further it has been accepted and condoned locally over a long period ( perhaps even thanked for the trade it brings to Les Houches). The fact that there are many others elsewhere who wanted to work in mainstream ski schools who have got all the proper qualifications is pretty irrelevant. In fact it smacks a bit of sour grapes and the SB super grass situation. It's not the "French" of course, although AP's title is clearly ironic in case you missed it, but the subversion of their system by local tribal or factional interests. I wonder if anyone's done a correlation - are there the same number of incidents in years when everyone's brimming over with customers? Or is it oddly coincidental that a foreigner has been singled out for the legal treatment after a low snow holiday period?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Not just a low snow period- also rather straitened financial times in France. Much as in the UK, there is less tolerance of businesses (perceived to be) exploiting local resources, paying tax elsewhere and avoiding social contributions.
Disclaimer, I have no idea about the arrangements of this particular business, and am only commenting on the general mood in France. I edited this and added the part in brackets, after reading the subsequent posts. There is nearly always an element of jealously in complaints everywhere I suppose.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sat 16-01-16 15:41; edited 2 times in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I'm with @Dave of the Marmottes, on this one. The BSA is not a ski school. It's a school. The pupils just do a lot of ski race training.
Sure it's a commercial enterprise.
So what?
It's been running for a long time and seems very happily integrate into the community. I don't live in Les Houches and don't have many on the mountain friends so that may not be the case.
The problem, as with so much of French bureaucracy, is that the rules, when they exist, if at all, are not applied universally and equally.
It sounds as though the wrong person was asked their opinion on employing someone, gave required positive opinion then weren't given the appropriate tartiflette lunch, bottle of St Joseph or a bung in a brown envelope and are displaying their displeasure this way.
It doesn't sound as though it (from what I've seen) that it's anything to do with the other default protectionist French behaviour over skiing qualifications.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@under a new name, Any chance of developing your argument on the reason its not a ski school - just to open up the debate?
For me it is an organisation that takes money with the primary aim of improving a child's skiing ability using paid instructors/trainers/teachers in France.
So to use an old Yorkshire Phrase if it looks like a canard and quacks like a canard - it is probably a canard - or in this case a ski school.
It would however, be interesting to see who the 'appelant'/'complainant is. This was clearly ESF Val D in the case of the SCGB but as you say the BSA does have support in the Valley. But to use an extreme example the Krays were welcomed by many on the 60's East End!!!!! Totally agree on the application of the rules though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
@chocksaway, because the principal objective is the pupils' full time school education, and most of the employees are teachers of english, french, maths, etc.
The skiing is secondary to the legally obligated education.
Oh, and if you rocked up and asked for a ski lesson they'd tell you to p1ss off.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
They do seem to be providing instruction/coaching/training though for their school pupils? I guess if you're a person looking for a school place who doesn't need this they would also tell you to bog off
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
