Is it possible for a boot to be manufactured stiffer than intended?

A snowHead

My son had a pair of Rossignol Hero Jr 65 boots. He got on well with them but after 2 winters they were getting a bit tight in the toes so we went out to buy a new pair. We weren’t looking for the same boots in a bigger size as he said he felt they were too soft. After a marathon session trying different makes and models he settled on a pair of Lange RS 70 SC Jr in a 24.5. At the time I was concerned about the jump from a 22.5 to a 24.5 but none of the boots, including the Lange, that he tried in 23.5 were comfortable.

Wind forward about 6 weeks and the boots a proving to be a bit of a disaster. His skiing has gone to pot. At the GBR races at the weekend he was all over the place. His times were well off the other racers and his normal pace. While watching him recently I’d noticed that he was much more upright than previously and he didn’t appear to be getting much movement. Looking back on videos taken when he was in his Rossi’s and comparing them with videos I’ve made recently, it is clear to see his posture way different. When I spoke to him he says the boots feel too stiff.

I discussed it with some other parents at the weekend and the general consensus was that the Lange is a more upright boot anyway and combined with the stiffer flex, they are probably making him stand more upright. On our return, on one boot I removed a screw on the rear that is supposed to reduce the flex and did a bit of a ‘blind test’ with my son and asked him which boot felt softer. He chose the boot with the screw removed. Unless he simply guessed correctly, removing the screw does seem to have an affect. However, after I had removed both screws I tried to check the flex by putting my arm inside and simulating flexing but they seemed to be rock solid. As a comparison I did the same with my old 100 flex Head boots and was able to move them. It almost seems like the pivot point isn’t pivoting. I also did a shell check and simple ‘foot in the liner’ check and my original fears about them being too big were confirmed. My son insisted that they were fine and his foot wasn’t moving but the checks suggested otherwise.

After much searching on Sunday night I found a pair of Rossi Hero Jr 65s in a 23.5 for sale on Ekosport at 40% discount. I decided that the Lange boots were going to be packed away until his feet grew so I ordered the Rossis. Ekosport processed the order Monday morning and at 10:45 this morning (Tuesday) the boots arrived via UPS.

When my son came in from school I had him try the Rossis. He said they felt tight on his toes but not uncomfortable. He also said there was ‘an annoying bit’ near the pivot but I can’t see what it is. What was immediately noticeable was the way he was able to flex them. Switching back and forth a couple of times between the Lange and Rossis it was clear to see he could flex the Rossis much easier. There is only supposed to be ‘5’ of a difference between them but it could easily have been 55. Although my son is only 8 he is big for his age (144cm and 39 kg) so he has the leverage and weight to move boots. He is grumbling that the Rossis are too soft and that they flex too much but I’m trying to convince him that it is better they are too soft than too stiff.

Given that the Langes appear to be stiffer than my old Head boots it has made me think that could there be something amiss with the Langes but what that ‘something’ could be I have no idea. Is it at all possible that they have been manufactured too stiffly?

A snowHead

Lange and Rossignol are the same company.

I only have the Rossignol race catalogue for 2014-15 but it suggests that the borderline between the 65 and 70 boots is at 36kg.

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I don't know much about kids's boots but while they are mechanical, so I guess something could jam - and they're presumably wildly different in size from your adult boots so big lever differences, making your bigger boots feel softer.

Are the Rossis and Langes made on the same mould with the same plastic?

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@rjs, the 2015-16 catalogue suggest that the move up is at 41kg. Assuming I'm reading the table correctly.

@under a new name, looking at the specs of the Rossignol Hero World Cup 70 SC and the Lange RS 70 SC Jr I'd say they are the same boot with different colour scene and branding.

The Rossignol Hero Jr 65 is a lesser spec'd boot. It doesn't have the cant adjustment of the higher spec boots. It does appear to have an equivalent in Lange RSJ 65.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

@Gaza, What does it show in the U14 section, the 2014-15 catalogue has a horizontal black line between the different models.

I guess they could have changed both boots for 2015-16, what model year did you get from Ekosport ?

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@Gaza, the RS 70 probably also has a higher cuff which may not be desirable in terms of inhibiting movement for your boy at 8 years old. For reference my daughter moved to the 70 at just under 10 and around 145cm and she skied fairly well in them straight away. I'm not a boot fitter but it sounds like your move to put him back in the 65 in a smaller size is sensible.

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@rjs, the table is the same as U12 - https://issuu.com/professionalsport/docs/rossignol_race_katalog_15_16

They were advertised as 2016 and this is supported by a manufacture date of May 2015.

After all it is free

@Gaza, I have looked at both the boots you are talking about and noticed quite a difference between them. The 65 is a very good child's type boot, whereas the 70 was significantly heavier and higher cuffed ('junior' boot?) before mentioning stiffness. Now I have heard talk of childs flex rating being different from adults, but tbh I know no more about it. What I can say is that I've watched a good number of LSRA kids and they have to be pretty strong to use those Lange boots properly, while the 65 Rossi flexes easily as Oscar had found. As an alternative those on the Salomon xmax junior or whatever it is called seem to get good flex from them, worth a look if you can try those.

@Gaza,

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the 65 is a childs boot with a childs DIN sole on it and made out of some pretty soft polypropylene type plastic (i would need to dig into the full tech spec to say exactly what)

the 70 is a proper youths race boot with an adult DIN sole, made out of Poly-ether there is quite a jump between the two, you can make the 70 softer by removing a bolt from the back as you have done (not the best method of softening a boot but it is effective in the sort term)

the rossi and the lange are identical boots apart from colour and banding throughout the race range

next issue may be the size, whilst you say none of the 23.5 boots he tried were comfortable, take the liner out of the boot and do a shell check,we are not looking for 10mm here, but anything much more than 25mm will be a massive hindrance especially with a childs foot as thye tend not to have much bulk to them to fill up any excess volume..... if the boot is over-sized then he will never bend it, as all the energy will be used up wobbling around in the cuff, this will cause him to stand straight legged and lean back

oh and to answer your original question can it be made stiffer than intended, not very likely? or every pair from the production would be coming back as faulty, my thoughts would be body weight, technique and boot size

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@balernoStu, Oscar has quite a 'boney' ankle and found the Salomon XMAX uncomfortable in that area. We were in Blues for about 2 hours trying on different types. I'd almost lost the will to live as he found fault in almost every pair he tried apart from the Langes. I think he had his heart set on a pair of Langes as a few of his friends have them, albeit not the RS 70 SC.

Thanks for the detailed information @CEM. As you have said there does appear to be a big jump between the two even though the flex index increment is relatively small. I was doing shell checks with him last night and I think he is beginning to come round to my way of thinking. A threat to stop taking him to races until he managed to master the Langes seems to have had the necessary effect and he's agreed to go with the Rossis. Toofy Grin

snow reports

I'm up here at the Fantastic Plastic tonight @balernoStu, and he's bitching and moaning about the Rossis. Evil or Very Mad

He says they are too soft and wait for it....too big!!! Laughing

You know it makes sense.

@Gaza, paint them blue and they're sure to fit better wink

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@Gaza, the boot being a bit stiff may make it feel the right size, as he can't flex it to get fully into the heel pocket, out of interest what size of shoe does he wear?

A snowHead

@CEM, he's a size 3 so, in theory, 23.5 should be fine. Yesterday evening I had him stand in the Lange liners with his foot right back in the heel pocket and showed him around 1.5cm of space at the toes. He reluctantly accepted that they were too big. They are now in back in their box on the top of his wardrobe until he grows out of the Rossis. Very Happy

The positive from last night was that by the time his 2 hours of training was finished he said the Rossi boots felt much better. The bit around the pivot that was annoying him seemed to have bedded down and had stopped being an irritation. He did say that he felt his heel was moving a bit but tightening the upper buckles seems to have cured that.

He did seem to be skiing much better last night and hopefully he'll enjoy himself more at the Silksworth Club National on Saturday.

A snowHead

@Gaza, 22.5 =3-3.5 23.5 =4-4.5, 24.5=5-5.5 APPROX but that's not to say there is an accurate conversion between ye olde imperial shoe sizes and metric mondopoint sizes, shell check is everything as it show the ACTUAL amount of physical space in the boot

hope he has fun on the weekend.... something tells me there will be a happy mood in sunderland

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Is it possible for a boot to be manufactured stiffer than intended?

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