 Poster: A snowHead
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I have been skiing for 40 years: learned in New England, moved out west after college, been in Colorado for 30 years, have skied just about all the major Western US resorts (and a bunch of smaller ones).
Just got back from a week at Espace Killy, my first trip ever to the Alps.
Thought I would share a variety of observations (both on and off the slopes) of Espace Killy compared to the US.
Breakfast.
I am not a big breakfast eater but I do need a cup of coffee and something solid to start a ski day. I figured this is France, there should be no problem finding a bakery with fresh croissants, right? Wrong. The one café at Rond-point des pistes did have excellent coffee but only one sorry looking pastry. The lady behind the counter was very nice and did make me a ham and cheese sandwich – good for lunch but not breakfast. Google searches turned up nothing. I walked around and looked at a bunch of restaurants but none served breakfast. After a couple days I finally found a bakery in town center that opens early with excellent chocolate croissants and a large variety of other pastries.
Strawberry juice.
Good stuff - why is this not sold in the US?
The on/off piste thing.
I was under the impression that the vast majority of Europeans never venture off-piste. Totally not true at Espace Killy – there were tracks everywhere.
Lifts.
EK lifts much more diverse and interesting.
Funithings (what is the difference between a funicular and a funival?) are way cool. None in the US - they must cost a whole lot of money to build. Big cable cars way up in the air like Grand Motte. Big fast gondolas (bubbles in British) like L’Olympique – 30 people per car! High speed quads and 6 packs all over the place. Still some surface lifts including a couple side by side button lifts: Col and Signal. Never seen one of these in the US, what is the reason for side by side? Covered carpet lifts – had to laugh at the chalkboard message at Pimpam up on Solaise: “lean forward or die.”
Lift attendant job duties.
There are numerous older (non-detachable) chairlifts. In the US, the lifties slow the chair down as you load. Not at EK - the back of my legs still have bruises.
Trail markers.
EK has regularly spaced piste markers with numbers that descend - how very helpful, never seen anything similar in the US. I imagine these were developed for the white out conditions common above timberline.
Lift ticket prices.
Why is the US so much more expensive? Too many lawyers and lawsuits creating very high insurance premiums?
Rental car.
Costly mistake. Tolls in France are ludicrous. The price of gas is astronomical. I prepaid online then the car rental company tacked on another charge of about 30% percent of the total. I went back and read the fine print – sure enough there was a “Premium Location Surcharge” and a “Vehicle or Road Licensing” fee. Next time I take a bus.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@blueroom, interesting post. Can't think why you couldn't get breakfast. I stay in a tiny ski resort and can think of three places which do great breakfasts, and there are no doubt more. I'm sure there must be even more in the EK. I have my own apartment and generally eat there, but last time I breakfasted in the village I had excellent coffee, a croissant, orange juice, a big chunk of fresh baguette, plenty of butter, two different jams and Nutella. Cost was very reasonable.
Yes, you were misinformed about European skiers staying on piste! Many skiers get off piste at every opportunity.
Never come across strawberry juice either in France or the UK! I'll bet it had loads of sugar in.
If you think French fuel is expensive, don't come and drive in the UK!
For transfers, getting around, advice on car hire etc, ask at Snowheads - between us we have probably tried just about every method of getting everywhere! For a single person, car hire is an expensive option, generally, and there are plenty of alternatives available to the big ski resorts.
Glad you enjoyed the skiing!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@blueroom, welcome to SHs, some interesting observations...
Breakfast? I am surprised. I think all of the bakeries in Chamonis serve coffee, various croissants and pastries, sandwiches and sometimes even pizzas from early on. Amazed you had any problems.
Strawberry juice: strawberries contain the sweetest compound known to man. You can't add sugar as that would be revolting. If you can't add sugar, why would it be sold in the US?
On/off piste: most Europeans don't ski off piste. Most don't ski in EK or Chamonix or, etc. these areas are known for the off piste so many who want to, or think they want to, ski off piste go there and do. This is not necessarily a good thing for anyone.
Lifts: a Funival is a funicular branded by Val d'Espair because the French are so, like, awesome at branding. Or, err, not at all.
Attendants: French (and Italian sometimes) will hold the chair for you if you take care to make the most basic of courtesies and bid them "bonjour" when you arrive. There isn't usually time for a hand shake, but if there is...
Trail markers? No, that's just common sense. I have skied in a north American resort where every marker had the trail number on it. Kind of orthogonal thinking.
Rental cars: did you price a taxi? Price of gas: your government subsidises you.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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bid them "bonjour" when you arrive.
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Tried that, didn't work.
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I have skied in a north American resort where every marker had the trail number on it
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Where? Were the numbers descending?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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The rond point des piste area is v small and I can't think of a decent bakery there. I assume you found maison Chevallot (on the way out of town before the bus station). It is probably one of the best boulangeries (sp??) in the alps.
What were those additional charges I've not heared of them before. The only extra you often pay is for damage or not fulling it up before returning it.
Andy
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@blueroom, on those fixed chairs which come round and sock you in the back of the leg the key skill is to stand further forward than the others getting on at the same time. I've found that saying "bonjour" means they will hold the chair and just let it go at the right moment to scoop you up with minimum pain. But if they slowed the chair for everybody the queue would get a lot longer. They do slow them for people who look particularly doddery.
As for two parallel draglifts..... two can take twice as many people up the hill. I know of two in my area - when it's quiet they run one, when it's busy they run two. Actually, one has just been replaced by a chair. Not an improvement, as the drag was quite fast and the chair is slow.
Where did you stay? No breakfast available?
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@blueroom, Surprised you didn't mention the lack of "lift line" management? Whenever I have skied in the US or Canada, the lifties management of the queues has been first rate, ensuring every seat is filled therefore minimising waiting time. French "queues" are more every man for himself, with the French being the worst offenders. Try Austria next time, it is so much more friendly and the Austrians also know how to do a good breakfast. I met many Americans in Lech/Zurs.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@blueroom, great post. I think your schoolboy error when looking for breakfast was trying to find it in a cafe, when you should have been looking for a boulangerie.
I sometimes wonder if the lifties in France like having to say bonjour all the time. I think most'd prefer to be left alone to do their job without the endless meet and greet.
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You have to watch Euro car rentals, although the EC has changed the law so they are fewer hidden charges than before. It's actually not that different from the US: just refuse everything they offer you which is not compulsory. It is very easy to find otherwise that the "extras" are bigger than the rental cost. Typically the charges are for exorbitant additional insurances or upgrades you don't need. Decline all, save yourself a packet. Driving around... well I just drove through Austria where there's a toll system, but I didn't pay any tolls... you just have to know what the rules are so you can work with them. That's also true in Canada at least.
I think there's no question that US culture is more customer-oriented than European. I'm surprised you didn't mention the queues. The chair lift thing, you just need to learn the technique of it.
More people ride "off piste" now, but it's still not the same thing as I'm sure you're aware. Tignes/ Val d'Isere is a known place for that, which is why you'll often find that other resorts are significantly better for it (that is: go somewhere else and it's easier to find untracked if you know where it is).
Food: you just need to do the work and find the good places, same as anywhere else, I think. Perhaps the surprise is that much French food is not great; not everyone expects that, but if you think about it, it's bound to be that way.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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philwig. Re. your driving in Austria with no Vignette? If you used the Autobahn, then it is compulsory to have one or risk a big fine. Obviously if you don't go on the Autobahn it isn't needed. It's the same for Switzerland. Driving without using motorways is more interesting but usually takes a good deal longer.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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My recent rental car at Innsbruck airport came with motorway pass.
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If by two-person drag lift you mean a t-bar, I have seen them outside Europe. There are some in Whistler, Canada.
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You know it makes sense.
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French "queues" are more every man for himself, with the French being the worst offenders
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Not where I ski. One of those generalisations like "Austrian resorts are full of drunks and lap dancers". Except for the Paris weeks queues are pretty orderly and people look out for little kids. And except for school holiday weeks there are really no significant queues anyway - just ski straight on. The only people I've seen being truly obnoxious (because I avoid the Paris holidays) were a group of Germans, in Les Contamines. Shouting loudly to each other across our heads, pushing and shoving. And being looked at askance.
The worst offenders in the (long) queues for the Tignes T bars in November were - by a very, very, long way, the young Italian racers. One young Italian lad was so upset at the way two girls had shoved past me that he apologised to me on their behalf.
I do wish European resorts would organise "singles lines", though. It's very irritating when there's a long queue and people are faffing round wanting to go up with their bestest friends and leaving gaps on the chairs.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@blueroom, T bars are common in Switzerland, and some French resorts, but not usually in the big French resorts which have invested heavily in the many fantastic new lifts which you've described. The T bars in EK are mainly on the glacier in Tignes. The glacier moves, so they can't build permanent pylons there, and drag lifts are easier and cheaper to adjust from season to season. The other lifts on the glacier, like the cable car, travel from rock to rock avoiding the movement issue.
As for skiing off piste, I've never skied in the US, but I'd gained the impression that everyone skies off piste there, but that the off piste is all in-bounds. In Europe, all off piste is out of bounds, including the "between the pistes," and you ski it at your own risk.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Mike Pow, mine from Salzburg too. I'd be surprised if most don't. I had the car over a change of month, so they gave me a vignette sticker to put up for the following month.
I've taken out annual insurance for car hire cover so I just pay for the car now. Cost less than the normal insurance charge for a week's hire
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| hammerite wrote: |
[b].
I've taken out annual insurance for car hire cover so I just pay for the car now. Cost less than the normal insurance charge for a week's hire |
I've been picking up a hire car when someone else dropping one back is having 1000 EUR taken off their credit card for a scratch. When he questioned the amount for a small scratch, the person said "I'm not a mechanic so i don't know what it costs to fix, so we take the full excess. You'll get back the difference if it costs less." I guess he kissed that money goodbye.
I also buy a stand alone annual policy.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| pam w wrote: |
| I do wish European resorts would organise "singles lines", though. It's very irritating when there's a long queue and people are faffing round wanting to go up with their bestest friends and leaving gaps on the chairs. |
On the whole the problem at the larger French resorts isn't lift queues, because they've invested massively in lift capacity. The issue is crowded pistes. "Single lines" are a solution to the wrong problem.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| dogwatch wrote: |
| pam w wrote: |
| I do wish European resorts would organise "singles lines", though. It's very irritating when there's a long queue and people are faffing round wanting to go up with their bestest friends and leaving gaps on the chairs. |
On the whole the problem at the larger French resorts isn't lift queues, because they've invested massively in lift capacity. The issue is crowded pistes. "Single lines" are a solution to the wrong problem. |
Increasing crowds (and this was over 10 years ago) was one of the main reasons we started skiing in Canada and even in Whistler back then it was getting too crowded for my liking. Since moving further inland into BC I've hardly seen a lift queue or crowds since then, but the numbers are starting to creep up slowly each year and getting first tracks all morning is starting to become a bit more of a challenge.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@dogwatch, yes, that's probably right. My daughter and BF skied in Flaine one half term, years ago. Snow was very poor in the lower areas (and not great in Flaine itself) and pistes were hard and fast. They said lift queues weren't a bother but they were both very perturbed by the numbers on the pistes. They are experienced skiers.
For the last 10 years they've only skied in the Espace Diamant where outside the very peak weeks pistes are never busy - it's common to have them practically to yourself. I get freaked out in places like the 3V these days even in low season and I found the Sella Ronda far more busy than I'm used to, in early February, which wasn't a peak week. There are big lift queues in Les Saisies in peak weeks, though other parts of the domaine can be pleasantly quiet. I stick to the ski de fond at those times, if I'm there, or just do something else.
I like to ski straight onto a lift and have the piste to myself, thanks! Just need to pick your time and place.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Old Man Of Lech wrote: |
| philwig. Re. your driving in Austria with no Vignette? If you used the Autobahn, then it is compulsory to have one or risk a big fine. Obviously if you don't go on the Autobahn it isn't needed. It's the same for Switzerland. Driving without using motorways is more interesting but usually takes a good deal longer. |
As I said: "you just have to know what the rules are so you can work with them". Google suggest that the free route in my case takes 10 minutes longer, although they don't point out that it's also a lot more fun.
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Hire car extra charges: they will tell you that you need a bigger car; they will try to rent you a sat nav; they will try to get you to insure the insurance excess (!). In Spain last season the cost of that excess insurance was more than the daily car hire charge. Paying for fuel in advance is similarly a scam best avoided. If you've never heard of any of these charges, then you may well have been happily paying them. Lots of people will then pay for the car with a credit card which they don't realize surcharges them with another 2.75%.
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Queues... I think singles lines are great. Whilst they do increase uplift capacity, they also make queueing quicker for those who don't want to be held up by their mates. It's not a zero-sum game: it improves the experience for people riding alone, whilst not disadvantaging the best-mates crowd. I don't ride at resorts much, so they always feel incredibly crowded. Even so, most people are very predictable and fairly easy to avoid.
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| philwig wrote: |
| Even so, most people are very predictable and fairly easy to avoid. |
"Most" and "fairly" aren't really all that encouraging.
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| philwig wrote: |
Queues... I think singles lines are great. Whilst they do increase uplift capacity, they also make queueing quicker for those who don't want to be held up by their mates. It's not a zero-sum game: it improves the experience for people riding alone, whilst not disadvantaging the best-mates crowd. |
+1 singles lines work well for me whenever I'm skiing alone, but where I ski rarely requires their usage. But the odd time it does, the singles line can turn a 5 min queue into a 1 min or less delay.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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As Pamw mentioned, it's idiots "phaffing" about when they get to the front of the queue, waiting for their mates, wives,OH's, etc. Whats wrong with these people? Are they afraid of actually interacting with someone they don't know. Get on the bloody lift and meet again at the top! It's one of my real pet hates.
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| Old Man Of Lech wrote: |
| As Pamw mentioned, it's idiots "phaffing" about when they get to the front of the queue, waiting for their mates, wives,OH's, etc. Whats wrong with these people? Are they afraid of actually interacting with someone they don't know. Get on the bloody lift and meet again at the top! It's one of my real pet hates. |
Well I'd rather ride the lifts with my wife and friends than some random strangers. Chill out or find somewhere without queues if it bothers you that much.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Of course you would and if you all go through together, no problem, BUT, if you get to the front of the queue then leave seats empty or block the way for those who want to go up, THEN it's those people who cause the queues to be longer than necessary. In the US & Canada, they actually have lines for 1's-2's 3's & 4's so it's not a problem and every seat is filled so less queuing time for ALL.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| blueroom wrote: |
| The price of gas is astronomical. |
I think it's more a case that the price of fuel in the US and Canada are amazingly cheap.
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Most things, (except lift passes), are.
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You know it makes sense.
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
Well I'd rather ride the lifts with my wife and friends than some random strangers. |
Wait for them BEFORE you get in line.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Wait for them BEFORE you get in line.
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Exactement!
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Poster: A snowHead
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I am trying to put quotes in my reply, but the "Include Sig." option is not working. The quote is there but not the name of the poster. Any ideas how to make this work?
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Where did you stay? No breakfast available?
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I self-catered and stayed in a studio apartment in center village.
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Food: you just need to do the work and find the good places
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I was hoping the walk around the village approach would work. It did for dinner, not for breakfast. The village was bigger than I expected, sounds like I needed to use the bus and find the boulangeries.
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You have to watch Euro car rentals, although the EC has changed the law so they are fewer hidden charges than before. It's actually not that different from the US: just refuse everything they offer you which is not compulsory.
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I did refuse all the additional stuff. The extra charges were in the fine print of the 4 page "contract" from the Internet site I used to make the booking. I feel a bit swindled - but will read the fine print next time.
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If by two-person drag lift you mean a t-bar
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We have several t-bars in Colorado - upper bowls at Breck, Copper, and Snowmass. These were side by side button lifts (called poma lifts on this side of the pond).
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Surprised you didn't mention the lack of "lift line" management?
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There were no lift lines. One reason I chose to go in April - I was hoping to avoid the crowds and the lift line chaos.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@blueroom, 'include sig' refers to your sig.
the quote will be attributed only if you quote the entire post using the 'reply with quote' button to the right of the post.
if you just select a segment of a post to quote it will not be attributed.
hope that helps
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| midgetbiker wrote: |
@blueroom, 'include sig' refers to your sig.
the quote will be attributed only if you quote the entire post using the 'reply with quote' button to the right of the post.
if you just select a segment of a post to quote it will not be attributed. |
Actually you can, you just need to add to the beginning of each one
It is easier if you use the advanced editor which you will see if you hit the preview button.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Trail markers seem to split the skiing community down the middle, probably based on where you ski most so what you're used to.
France seems to favour descending markers that make it easy to tell how far to the end of the run but I prefer the Austrian run-number system. I don't think I've ever found myself skiing the wrong way on a piste and had to turn around when I noticed the numbers going up not down and once on a piste you more or less have to go to the bottom, be it 600m or 200m. I have though found myself at a 3-way piste junction in France where the distance numbers were big, the piste names tiny...but the signs split either side of a crest so you knew you'd have to sidestep back up the slope by the time you were close-enough to read the names if you guessed wrong!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@blueroom, I can't offer much more than to agree with most SH's earlier posts. The one thing you won't get in France is a restaurant where you really get to "go out for breakfast" as per the US. Boulangeries are the only real option for a coffee and pastry, and most people tend to do as the french, head out first thing to the boulangerie to get their fresh baguette or croissant to eat at home. I like it-it's a kind of morning ritual in France, it's just different from the US morning ritual of coffee and some yummy calorific fry up.
Off piste. Don't be fooled into think that the EK and places like Chamonix are the only places with tracked out off piste. Frankly, every resort I have ever been to in France, Austria, Italy and Switzerland is be covered in off piste tracks if there's a good dump. However, that does not mean that it is safe!
Lifties-yes maybe they don't offer the "have a nice day!" cheeriness that you get in the US (it's nice, but feels a little odd to this particular buttoned up Brit when what I often experience in france is some gallic grunting), but if you give them as smile and a bonjour then you tend to get acknowledgement. My own experience is that the slow older chairs tend to be in the quieter parts of the resorts which means the liftie can be under occupied. They do tend to slow the older chairs down, but if not-like the other's say, just be sure to stand ahead of the person next to you!).
One thing you haven't mentioned, but I notice more than anything re US vs Europe, is how you Yanks like to chat on the chairlift with your fellow traveller. Even allowing for there being no language barrier, that is far more infrequent over this side of the pond! (we really are miserable so and so's sometimes). However, I am always up for a chat with an American who has taken the trouble to come this far so we can share our experiences.
So, now you've been to the EK...where next?
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 3-05-16 18:04; edited 1 time in total
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| Mjit wrote: |
| France seems to favour descending markers that make it easy to tell how far to the end of the run |
That's a side-effect but I think what they are actually for is to allow the position of a casualty to be reported.
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| Old Man Of Lech wrote: |
| Of course you would and if you all go through together, no problem, BUT, if you get to the front of the queue then leave seats empty or block the way for those who want to go up, THEN it's those people who cause the queues to be longer than necessary. In the US & Canada, they actually have lines for 1's-2's 3's & 4's so it's not a problem and every seat is filled so less queuing time for ALL. |
I just haven't experienced this problem to be honest. I ski in Canada all the time and there are often empty seats on the chairs, but rarely any queues so nobody really cares. There's a singles line too, but I've never seen a double or triple line. Maybe you get those in really busy resorts?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
I've never seen a double or triple line. Maybe you get those in really busy resorts? |
yes
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There were no lift lines. One reason I chose to go in April - I was hoping to avoid the crowds and the lift line chaos.
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| pam w wrote: |
| @blueroom, on those fixed chairs which come round and sock you in the back of the leg the key skill is to stand further forward than the others getting on at the same time. |
That technique doesn't work if there's no lift queue and no one else standing next to you!
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FAQ
