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New ski boots - advice needed please

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
So I finally took the plunge and invested in a pair of ski boots back at the beginning of Feb. On the recommendation of a colleague I went to Ellis Brigham and went through the whole fitting process with moulded boots and custom footbeds and walked out with a pair of Salomon women's Xpro 90s in a size 26.
Wore them about the house for a few weeks and was beginning to get pins and needles in my feet so went back and got them remoulded. I then went away skiing a couple of weeks ago and after 3 days of excruciating pain, pins and needles, numb feet and loss of feeling in my feet I had to stop skiing in them and get a hire pair. The hire pair were a pair of Rossignol Kiara boots in a size 26.5 and a managed to ski the rest of the week in reasonable comfort.
Anyway having contacted EB about this hey are happy for me to go back in and try and sort the problem out, they have offered me a 70% refund / exchange which is the guarantee that they come with.

Anyway my question really is has anyone else had this problem having bought new ski boots, is it a common problem? Also what is anyone's advice on getting the problem sorted? I have lost faith in my Salomon boots but am wary of getting another pair fitted as not due to go skiing again until next March and if the same issue happens will there still be a guarantee?

Any help or advice very welcome. Thanks
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@Sophstar10, you will find lots of boot fitting threads on here and others will be along with much more experience than me.

The hard thing when buying boots is knowing how tight is ok and when it's too tight or big. The boot fitter can only go on what you describe to them, but they should have some experience of how much the liners in the boots crush down. When they do you'll have more room and either they will become comfortable or your feet will be moving inside the boot.

Generally it's only possible to make boots bigger. My current boots I couldn't keep on my feet for more than 10 min initially, but with some work that moved to an hour. After a week of hard skiing they are not perfect but I had got to the point where my feet were starting to move in the boot and they needed tightening up. It's amazing how far the liners crush down to give space but it takes time.

Assuming that the shell length is not way out, eb can probably stretch them but it's a one way process that cannot be undone so go slowly with it.

I don't know about the guarantee, I've never asked and neither have they before altering my boots.
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Which EB was it? If a high street one you may be better if you can get to one of the snowdome stores as they tend to be better fitters and more understanding of ski boots. The problem you'll have now is even a big retailer like EB will be on the last dregs of their 15/16 ski boot stocks and won't be getting more in till they gear up for next winter in the late summer, if they will let you wait till then to do the exchange that will be your best bet.
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Thanks guys, it was EB in Bristol. I have been in touch with the manager and I am going to see her. They have said I will be able to get a refund if needed so I will certainly be taking that if I am not happy. I lost a lot of confidence skiing in the boots for 3 days without being able to feel my feet so not sure I want to keep those boots anyway.
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I'm not being funny here, but are you sure you're wearing them right? Normally the main cause of pins and needles / numb feet is over-tightening of the lower buckles.

When I was learning, in hire boots, I used to wrench everything up to the absolute max, because I was never taught how to do it. I never seemed to get pins and needles, I guess the hire boots were just worn in enough that circulation was achieved in other parts of the boot. As soon as I bought some of my own - all heat moulded, custom footbeds etc.. the first day I wore them I did the same - wrenched up all the buckles to the max - and of course, within 2 hours I couldn't feel my feet. Then of course, I was taught how to do boots up properly, and the problem was solved.

I hope I'm not patronising you Sophstar! But how tight have you been doing the lower foot buckles? They should only really be tight enough to keep the buckle closed and not much more, you only want to be 'tight' on the leg buckles.
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Haha, no problem on sounding patronising, it's a valid point to ask. I can confirm that I was doing the boots up in the correct order, top down rather than the usual bottom up, plus the toe clips were not very tight at all, think they were on the second clip so no pressure from them.
I used to bore everyone else I was skiing with on the correct way to do their boots up 😂
Also just to clarify when wearing them at home I was standing up not sitting down! 😃
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Lack of ankle flex/range of movement & tight calf calves can cause those issues even in a properly fitting boot. CEM is the resident expert here.
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Thanks spyderjon, I did also suffer from extremely sore calf muscles after the 3 days I skied in the boots but couldn't be sure if that was from skiing awkwardly in the boots or just generally getting my ski legs back! They were tight at the top also
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Sophstar10 wrote:
Haha, no problem on sounding patronising, it's a valid point to ask. I can confirm that I was doing the boots up in the correct order, top down rather than the usual bottom up, plus the toe clips were not very tight at all, think they were on the second clip so no pressure from them.


Sorry I'm not going on but I wasn't so much talking order... the toe buckles, great, what about the next one up, the one further up your foot as opposed to on your leg. How tight is that? That buckle is usually the culprit where the buckles are involved!

Also you know that the buckle half spins around to 'fine tune' tighten and looser, right? Would there be space to take it in one turn and then fasten again, and see if taking some - but not a whole notch - helps? Remember - when supplied, these usually come wound all the way in, you should set all to about halfway along their travel so you've got space to work with in both directions.

Also, uou are pulling the boot liner back up once you've got your foot in? If you don't, that can end up a little crammed inside and restrict blood flow.

Finally - something which I find works for me - when putting your boots on in the morning, are you doing them up then walking to the lift with your boot done up? Personally I find my boots fit way better all day, if in the morning I wear them around with all the buckles on their first clip, just loose but not undone. I wear them like that to wherever I finally put my skis on (hence, doesn't work in a ski in ski out kind of place) and just letting my feet move around in the boots for half an hour before doing them up seems to help my feet settle much better.
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@dp yes, yes and yes! Second buckle also loose and yes I know that the buckle can spin around to alter, trust me I tried every possible buckle positioning to stop the pain! Also had the buckle moved to the wider setting when I went back to the shop before going away. Also yes my boots only got done up to ski tightness just before putting my skis on - 5 minute walk to bottom of slope, 5/10 mins waiting for 35 kids to be taken off to ski school and 10/20 mins in the gondola to the top of the resort!!
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Pins and needles will typically be due to either boots too tightly closed or foot bed issues. A good boot fitter, plus some tweaking and trying out at local ski slope, might fix this. However that could be a protracted process and may still not work, given significance of your issues. For replacement now, as pointed out, stocks will be low. Been in a similar situation as has my daughter. Maybe better to cut losses and definitely try another brand (emphasis!!) next season, possibly even hiring then buying same model ...
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Sophstar10 wrote:
@dp yes, yes and yes!


Awesome, wasn't patronising, its just one of those things they never teach you, even though they really should.

Ski boots aren't one size fits all, so I suppose it might not be unrealistic to take a 70% refund if they've offered it to you... and try something else. I would think your footbed would be transferrable.

Trying hire boots and buying the same isn't as easy as it is with skis, sadly. Boots you do kinda have to take a punt on.
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If you've got the opportunity to get to a local slope to try them I'd be inclined to give EB every opportunity to tweak and adjust - so long as that doesn't prejudice the offer of a 70% refund if they can't get them right.
I assume that you are skiing in the same socks you had the boots fitted in? As you were comfortable in hire boots 5mm larger (albeit a different model probably with a different fit) maybe thinner socks would help whilst the liners pack out initially?
Have you looked at your feet after having a problem to see if there is any indication of pressure points that might be causing your discomfort?
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@Sophstar10, You certainly aren't alone having new boots that hurt like crazy. I sometimes get the impression that everyone who buys their own boots will suffer years of agony and buckling/unbuckling on every lift.

My own guess, and others will contradict me, is that boot fitters are usually focussed on getting the most perfect conjunction possible between boot and foot. Technically this makes sense, but fr the majority of intermediate British skiers I would argue that comfort is infinitely more important, and I have a feeling that the two characteristics are mutually compatible. I used to own my own boots (off the peg, not custom fitted at all). They were tolerably uncomfortable. When they does I went back to hiring and have never looked back. My boots may sometimes be a bit sloppy for some people's taste but I just swap them to find a better pair.

Id be inclined to change your boots. Either fir a refund or a whole new pair. I seldom hear of people with painful boots having a slight tweak and then waxing lyrical about how comfortable they are. Better, but seldom comfortable.
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@foxtrotzulu,
Quote:

I sometimes get the impression that everyone who buys their own boots will suffer years of agony and buckling/unbuckling on every lift.

No. Not in my case. You do have to make a few tweaks. My previous boots needed grinding above the big toes (my nails turn up). The initial grind was not enough, so I got a black nail on the first week, but after a second grind all was well. Those boots served me very well for 16 years, so the initial pain was worth it. I also had to trim my footbed a bit to make it fit better inside the boot. I wouldn't do that with a rental boot. My current boots are Atomic Redsters that have a mouldable shell. The initial fit was a bit painful but after the moulding they were like the proverbial slippers.
Quote:

My boots may sometimes be a bit sloppy for some people's taste but I just swap them to find a better pair.

I remember hiring boots. I also remember going to a good tight boot. Suddenly the tirns were much tighter, in the moguls the boot never felt floppy. I wouldn't go back!
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Sophstar10, there are a number of things which could be causing the problems you have been suffering, some have been highlighted above others have been ignored

my money is on the calf muscle, you said yourself that the calves where sore and the boot was tight over the top of the foot.... if there is a restriction of movement at your ankle joint then your heel will try and lift as you flex forward... this then puts pressure onto the instep and often the ball of the foot, if you contstict that area then you will get pins and needles and numbness pretty quickly.

first thing is to confirm IF this is the case, if so the first job is not for the boot fitter but for YOU, stretching and foam rolling for the calf muscle and the muscles under the foot will give (in most cases) significant improvement in range of motion.

next thing i would look at is the footbed, it should be stable, neutral and have a good heel cup, if it is very flat at the heel, or falls inwards it is not doing its job properly and can contribute to the problems.

please don't use the " I've lost faith in these boots " line, it strikes of desperation and someone who is looking to blame a boot or a boot fitter for the problems..... chances are with the right support and some small modifications the boots could be fine (assuming you have some flexibility in the ankle)

the 26.0 and the 26.5 are exactly the same boot size, same shell, same liner and in most cases same insole, the rossignol renatl boot you tried were just higher volume and had been used for a few weeks to break down the liner padding, it might even be that is all your current boot needs... we tell all our clients that the first 3-4 days may not be great and in some cases will be horrible, those that have been through this packing down before understand it and accept it, as it gives for a much better fitting boot in the long term, unfortunately if they didn't tell you and effectively manage expectations you have the problems that you are suffering.

all the above is speculation as i have not seen your feet BUT 29 years of fitting boots tells me it is the most likely cause
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Thanks for your reply CEM. All very helpful and useful information. I am not at all trying to blame anyone for the boots I am just extremely frustrated having spent a lot of time and money on these boots to then have a horrible few days skiing.
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I had very similar problems with boots. It turned out it was due to tight calf muscles and not a problem with the boots. Apparently both running and wearing heels can lead to tight calf muscles. Stand with your toes on the edge of a step and the let your heels drop below your toe level.
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@Sophstar10, whatever @CEM says.

Plus, unless your technique is particularly horrible, wearing your boots around the house is not a good analogue to skiing.
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Tubaski wrote:

I assume that you are skiing in the same socks you had the boots fitted in? As you were comfortable in hire boots 5mm larger (albeit a different model probably with a different fit) maybe thinner socks would help whilst the liners pack out initially?
Have you looked at your feet after having a problem to see if there is any indication of pressure points that might be causing your discomfort?


Yes I skied in both the same socks that I was wearing when I had then fitted and also a thinner pair. Didn't get a chance to look at my feet when taking them off but might pop them back on and stand in them for a while and see what happens.
Thanks
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Sophstar10 wrote:
Tubaski wrote:

I assume that you are skiing in the same socks you had the boots fitted in? As you were comfortable in hire boots 5mm larger (albeit a different model probably with a different fit) maybe thinner socks would help whilst the liners pack out initially?
Have you looked at your feet after having a problem to see if there is any indication of pressure points that might be causing your discomfort?


Yes I skied in both the same socks that I was wearing when I had then fitted and also a thinner pair. Didn't get a chance to look at my feet when taking them off but might pop them back on and stand in them for a while and see what happens.
Thanks


STOP.... the 26.0 and the 26.5 ARE THE SAME SIZE...SAME SHELL, SAME LINER AND IN MOST CASES SAME FOOTBED so the 26.5 is NOT 5mm longer than the 26.0
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CEM wrote:
Sophstar10 wrote:
Tubaski wrote:

I assume that you are skiing in the same socks you had the boots fitted in? As you were comfortable in hire boots 5mm larger (albeit a different model probably with a different fit) maybe thinner socks would help whilst the liners pack out initially?
Have you looked at your feet after having a problem to see if there is any indication of pressure points that might be causing your discomfort?


Yes I skied in both the same socks that I was wearing when I had then fitted and also a thinner pair. Didn't get a chance to look at my feet when taking them off but might pop them back on and stand in them for a while and see what happens.
Thanks


STOP.... the 26.0 and the 26.5 ARE THE SAME SIZE...SAME SHELL, SAME LINER AND IN MOST CASES SAME FOOTBED so the 26.5 is NOT 5mm longer than the 26.0


So that's definitely the same size then. Laughing
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What is the logic behind 26 and 26.5 being the same , please?
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CEM wrote:

STOP.... the 26.0 and the 26.5 ARE THE SAME SIZE...SAME SHELL, SAME LINER AND IN MOST CASES SAME FOOTBED so the 26.5 is NOT 5mm longer than the 26.0


Wow, if anyone else other than @CEM had said that I wouldn't have believed it! I knew the shells were the same, so had assumed the liners 'must' be different. Bloody marketing people.
I stand corrected, as the skier said to the bootfitter Laughing
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Someone else had mentioned that they were the same to me also so nice to get it confirmed! Don't get why they bother saying they are different!!
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Sophstar10 wrote:
Someone else had mentioned that they were the same to me also so nice to get it confirmed! Don't get why they bother saying they are different!!


As Tubaski says, bloody marketing!
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This?

http://blistergearreview.com/gear-101/boot-fitting-101/boot-fitting-101

A Dirty Little Secret: The Truth about Half Sizes

There is no such thing as a half size. A 27.0 and 27.5 are the same size shell. (SCARPA’s boots are a little different: they size their shells so that the whole size and the half size smaller are the same. For example: a 26.5 and 27 are the same shell.)

Even those who know the truth about half sizes often assume that the boot liners used in a 27.0 and a 27.5 are different, and some manufactures will try to tell you that their liners are sewn in half sizes. Don’t believe it.

The only difference between the whole and half size is the thickness of the removable insole upon which you are standing.

A thicker insole is used for the whole size (27.0) and a thinner insole for the half size larger (27.5). Why is that, you ask? The injection mold used for making ski boots cost upward of $100,000. There are currently 8-9 shells each in men’s and ladies’ sizes. That’s $800,000 – $900,000 per size run per model. There are usually 7-8 different models of boots in any given brand line up. Since the difference between a whole and half size is 5 millimeters, boot manufacturers regard it as financially infeasible to produce an additional 8 or 9 half size shells.

[Edited to credit source of info]
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To give credit to Atomic for being honest both my liners and shells are marked as 27/27.5 and given I have a custom footbed in them think it is probably anyone's guess what size in that range they really are!
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davkt wrote:
To give credit to Atomic for being honest both my liners and shells are marked as 27/27.5 and given I have a custom footbed in them think it is probably anyone's guess what size in that range they really are!


they actually had a complaint about that..... not that they were doing it, but someone felt they had been missleading them for years Confused Confused rolling eyes

Salomon even tried to tell us this year that the lasted the liners differently, maybe some saturday kid in a chain store would believe them, but they soon shut up when we asked if the liners that were narrower didn't slip side to side in the shells.... the genius that came up with that little marketing ploy probably lost their job
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Great info. I'd long known that the shells were identical for half sizes (my shells are marked as 28/28.5), but had always presumed the liners were slightly different for the half size. Now I know the truth and it makes sense when you think about it.

As far as boot fitting goes, I would only put my trust in a very experienced and well respected professional fitter like CEM (he actually fitted my wife's last pair of boots a few years ago and they have been fantastic) or the fitter I know in our resort who has also been in the trade for decades and has a great reputation on the hill. He fitted my last pair about 5 years ago and they have also been great.

Not to knock EB or their staff, but unless you are lucky enough to get one of their most experienced fitters on the job, you are very unlikely to get the same kind of service as you would with a true specialist like CEM. I've bought plenty of stuff from EB over the years and some of their staff are great and very knowledgeable. But it's most definitely hit and miss when it comes to service at the big chain stores. You could get a boot fitter with many years of quality experience, or (probably more likely) someone who has only been fitting boots for a season or two at most.
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 Poster: A snowHead
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CEM wrote:
davkt wrote:
To give credit to Atomic for being honest both my liners and shells are marked as 27/27.5 and given I have a custom footbed in them think it is probably anyone's guess what size in that range they really are!


they actually had a complaint about that..... not that they were doing it, but someone felt they had been missleading them for years Confused Confused rolling eyes



Probably makes for a class action in the hands of an American lawyer!
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