Bad behaviour on the pistes

A snowHead

I'd be very interested to know what other snowheads think about this. As a ski professional I can see the general level of ski-ing behaviour going down every year, which makes the pistes more dangerous. It seems that an ever increasing number of skiers take no notice of the rules of piste behaviour, couldn't care less if they crash into other people, and ski without consideration or regard for other piste users.

Having had a long conversation with a pisteur recently who was furious about this, has anyone got any sensible suggestions for reversing this trend?

Is it the fault of ski instructors? Lack of information? Lack of appropriate laws? I'd like to know what you think - my life is on the line every February! Sad

A snowHead

I don't want to specifically pick on snowboarders, but they seem worse than most at ignoring rules (some of them at least). Sitting down in the middle of the piste, just over a blind summit springs to mind. Is it due to lack of tuition in the ski /board classes. (Not suggesting you esaiski)

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Helen Beaumont, Skiing with Chris Bish the other day we twice came across the same large group of snowboarders sprawled right across the middle of the piste. Nothing unusual there - except that they were accompanied by an ESF instructor Evil or Very Mad

....

As for easiski's question, I reckon piste behaviour reflects general attitudes among young people. I don't want to stereotype an entire generation, but on the whole there just seems to be less respect for others these days. Sad

A symptom of the everyone for him/herself society?

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My 9-year old son, Sam, was wiped-out by an ESF skiing instructor in Courchevel last week (on the wide mid-section of the Jean Pachod red for those that know the slope).
I didn't witness the event itself but one of the 4 adults the guy was instructing claimed it was my lad's fault. She said he was skiing to fast across the slope Shocked

!
Sam said the guy just ran into him.
I've never seen him ski too fast or out-of-control and the lack of protestation from the instructor himself (especially when he realised we were English) indicated exactly who was at fault.
If you can't trust these guys to ski properly, who can you trust.

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PG, would agree there. Had words with eldest due to same problem, last week,. not considering others safety before acting (rashly).

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NickB, The bottom line is who was upslope - the instructor or your son? I'd assumed if your son had been hit that the instructor ran into him and not the other way around. The fact of skiing across a slope doesn't absolve anyone from responsibility when colliding with a skier from above, especially a youngster, irrespective of speed and/or unpredictable changes of direction....

Unless the instructor simply wasn't looking where he was going it does seem rather strange though. These guys can turn and stop on a sixpence.

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It is always best though to chack both above and below before crossing a slope?

After all it is free

So far, so good - but what can we do about it? My niece was also wiped out by an ESF instructor several years ago, and the resultant loss of confidence affected her ski-ing for 3 years. At that point she'd skied for about 6 weeks. I have clients hit or nearly hit every week. I used to try to catch the offender with my ski pole (ouch!), but am now too afraid of law suits to do this!

By the way I insist that all children ski-ing with me wear helmets......... in a collision between a big person and a little person ..............

I have had foot long metal spikes attached to the back of my jacket and sallopettes. Nobody's crashed into me since.

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I have been skiing in the last 6 years and didn't find it to be a problem. May be I am a bit slow for everybody.

I once got separated with my wife at Platterierres 1 run of Meribel because there were so many skiers rushing down at the end of the day, literally thounsands. There wasn't any accident and it remains one of the spectecular sign of my skiing experience.

I still think it takes two to tango. If a skier doesn't charge down the fall line but is looking out for hazard all the time may be he can do 50% to avoid a crash.

We can always have a good skier saying that a poor skier doesn't know how to use the slope and space properly. However the poor skier can always claim the good skier should be skilfull enough to avoid a crash if he is really good.

The fact remains that many skiers are going at a speed they can't handle properly thus putting others slopes users at risk.

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We discussed some of this a while back in the "piste rules" thread.

The possibility of "piste police" was also raised somewhere, banning offenders from the slopes for a day by confiscating lift passes ... more information provided by the tour operators (copies of piste etiquette leaflets when sending out booking info?) .... more encouragement to take lessons .... more emphasis by the instructors themselves on the safety aspect of skiing as opposed to teaching mainly technique ....

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I recently had lessons with New Generation in C1650 and the instructor always stressed safety & etiquette - especially in reminding the group to check uphill when joining/crossing the piste etc.

You know it makes sense.

The last time I wiped someone out was while skiing home in near-darkness after drinking large amounts of Weissbier, at about 5pm at Gerlos, New Year maybe 8 or 9 years ago. It was totally my fault and the other guy was totally innocent. No-one was hurt.

But my belief is that this kind of thing probably accounts for only about 5% of accidents, and all the other 95% are caused by a combination of 2 semi incompetent people being on the same slope at the same time. As a good skier (or boarder - and I do both) you should be able to look at someone ahead and see exactly how good he his, and make an accurate judgment of what he will do next. And avoid him, even if he does something stupid. Even if he crashes. Even on a narrow run. You get my point - it definitely takes 2 to tango!

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I think its a problem with the culture thats being encouraged by the many extreme skiing / boarding videos amongst other aspects of skiing holidays. That is " I'm here to have a good time and take risks and if anyone gets injured then that's their fault"
Just back from val D and ther was an "altercation" between some young Frenchmen and a Brit where the former tried to barge and push their way on to a telecabin at the last minute when they'd spent the previous 5minutes posing at the entrance to the lift loudly telling everyone how brilliant they'd skied the red/blue served by the telecabin. He told them not to be so rude and they told him to F### Off. One of their number then collided with me when we were funnelling down to another lift. Unfortunately he wasn't hurt and he also skied away out of my reach or he may have suffered a "secondary collision"
Rudeness and a lack of consideration seems to be the norm nowadays - or am I just becoming a boring old fart?
Has modern travel made it too easy to visit the mountains and the people who now use them treat them and fellow users with not enough respect?

A snowHead

I have to admit that even I have been in collision with another skier, a youngster at that. Looking at it, it probably was my fault, he came in from the side - not right angles mind, otherwise I would have seen him, he veered into my path just below me and I was going faster than him and could not avoid him. I managed somehow to twist myself round him and leave him further up the slope. Neither of us was hurt but I was extremely embarraced at colliding with a 11/12 year old child. I think of myself as a reasonable skier but we all make mistakes.

As far as boarders are concerned, a good boarder is as courteous and skillfull as any skier I have seen, and I can also say that there are some really stupid skiers out there as well. I seem to remember mentioning a couple in another thread who stood in the middle of a speed gun piste. I think there are also quite a lot of boarders (young and inexperienced) who have no concept of piste etiquette.

ise, I am certainly not accusing every boarder of having bad piste etiquette but I have heard of to many stories involving boarders hitting skiers and injuring them, my mum included. I am sorry if you have had bad experiences while using a board, what they are doing is simply not on.

A snowHead

I was trying to think of some rules of the piste and to be honest I cant ever remember being told any of them, ever. I dont think it was because I wasnt listening or anything, Ive just never been told!

Ive checked a few brochures aswell and nothing in there, I had a look at an old piste map - and there was nothing on there either.

So who's responsibility is it to tell everyone the rules?

With regards to the rudeness etc on the piste, It always seem to be the non-brits who are the rudest to me!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

There are rules of etiquette, Is it not true that SCGB Reps have rules of the piste on them??

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Well theyre about as much use as a choc ice in a desert then!

No one will see them! NehNeh

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

As I am not an SCGB member I really wouldn't know!!! Smile

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At the risk of teaching others to suck eggs the following are the ten rules for the conduct of skiers and snowboarders establised by the FIS ( International Ski Federation ) :

1. RESPECT : Do not endanger others;
2. CONTROL : Adapt the manner and speed of your skiing to your ability and to the general conditions of the mountain;
3. CHOICE OF ROUTE : The skier/snowboarder in front has priority - leave enough space;
4. OVERTAKING : Leave plenty of space when overtaking a slower skier/snowboarder;
5. ENTERING AND STARTING : Look up and down the mountain each time before starting or entering a marked run;
6. STOPPING : Only stop at the edge of the piste or where you can easily be seen;
7. CLIMBING : When climbing up or down, always keep to the side of the piste;
8. SIGNS : Obey all signs and markings- they are there for your safety;
9. ASSISTANCE : In case of accidents provide help and alert the rescue service;
10. IDENTIFICATION : All those involved in an accident, including witnesses, should exchange names and addresses.

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When I checked my old piste maps this is what I found

Ski Maps without rules on the slopes

Norway - Oppdal
France - Les Houches, Les Gets, Courchevel, Meribel, Vallee Des Bellevill, L'Aples D' Huez, Porte Du Soleil, Les Contamines, Les Arc, La Plagne, Valmorel la Belle
Switzerland - Jungfrau Region (First/Mannlicchen/Murren), Crans Montana
Austria - Ski Welt Wider Kaiser Brixental (Soll, Westendorf, etc...), Saalbach-Hinterglemm, Kirchberg-Kitzbuhel, Alpbach, St. Johann in Tirol, Bad Gastein, Zell am See-Kaprun,

Ski Maps with rules on the slopes

Sweden- Are
Norway - Geilo, Hemsedal
France - Le Brevent-Flegere, Grans Montet, Le Tour-Vallorcine, Domaine Evasion (Megeve-St Gervais), Grand Massif (Flaine-Morilon-Samoen), Tignes-Val D'lsere, Deux Alpes,
Italy - Courmayour, La Thuile
Canada - Whistler-Blackcomb
Austria - Zillertal

After all it is free

I note a general implication in many of the posts here (with one or two exceptions) that any collision must be someone's fault. I have had one or two near-misses due to simple human error.
None of us has 360 degree vision, nor the ability to concentrate perfectly all the time. To err is human: we all make mistakes.
The problem (well decribed by Saikee) is more and more skiers on the piste due to improved lift systems.
Queues may be frustrating, but at least they ration the numbers of skiers on the slopes.

The FIS piste etiquette rules are on display in quite a few French resorts... you see them on the pylons sometimes, leaflets in tourists offices, when you buy your lift pass. But it's all a bit random.

I'm not sure about the simple human error thing Jonpim. A skier/boarder should be in sufficient control to be able to anticipate any random movement of someone downhill of him. If the slopes are congested in the approach to the resort then the onus is on you to go much slower. You don't need 360° vision, peripheral vision is sufficient to cover the space you are responsible for - to your immediate right and left, and downslope. The list of FIS rules Joseph quoted make this very clear, and are expanded on here (details in right-hand column).

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PG - I agree with your sentiments (your first post) but wouldn't want to point the finger at only youth for the all to transparent general lowering of standards and moral decline of the population!

Oooh I sound like a tory MP! Wink

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Often snowboarders appear to be sat in the middle of a piste, when actually they have just wiped out. The thing about wiping on a board is that often you land on your bum - it's less painful than landing on your knees.

Anybody care to comment why skiers are always given 10 rules? Embarassed

Has this got any thing to do with cats having 9 lives? rolling eyes

You know it makes sense.

I think it's expectations rather then attitude. Both skiers and boarders can be idiots, but boarders expect to be able to board anywhere on the mountain after 3-4 days. Then you have boarders sitting on trickiest part of the slope ( just wiped out there), boarders going too fast to notice if they can turn on "the blind side" (or even don't know they have to look because they don't have enough experience and tne friend that taught them hasn't told them to) or simply loosing control . Once, on a red slope covered with icy moguls a boarder crashed into me from the back. I was going quite slowly, he came fast (and quite out control) from a blue slope, turned into the red, hit a mogul and flew right into me. Luckly is board hit only my boot, otherwise he would have broken my leg. It took me sometime to recover but the guy didn't shoot off, so we talked a bit (once i ran out of curses). turns out it's his second week, did the blue slope with friends the day before and it was easy. He didn't realize how the wind and cold have changed the piste, tried to go fast and lost control.
He was certanly not rude, he was acting out his expectation to be an accomplished boarder after 10 days.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

Boarders take a ridiculous amount of abuse only because it's people's expectations that kids will make more mistakes and hit more people than adults - it's nonsense. The amount of times I have been hit by skiers and boarders is about equal.

Boarders don't try to be annoying when cruising the mountain they just can't see behind them so have a few more issues with awareness on that side. I agree they should take more care with that if that is the case but skiers can't see behind them so will make stupid turns out of the rhythm and stop more quickly than boarders do and with less awareness of what is behind them (granted, it is the responsibility of the uphill skier but even so..)

Also boarders have less lessons thatn skiers as they get better quicker so are less likely to get the etiquette drilled into them.

My last point/question: I am at a loss for words of people 'getting the retaliation in first'. This doesn't really happen does it?
If it does I would advise the people not to do it where I can see it as I will retaliate last and I WILL win - vengence will be mine (a wise man once said!!).

PS I am a skier but just think that boarders get a raw deal. French on the other hand Wink

A snowHead

Skiing is becoming cheaper and less elitist and exclusive. Also, modern equipment makes it easier for people to be competent in most situations before they have the experience do deal with their lack of competence in other situations. That is coupled with the changing way in which skiing is promoted and the fact that people expect to be able to charge around and be "extreme". I suspect that the pistes are also getting busier.

Some of those factors are to be welcomed but the effects need to be managed somehow. I'm not sure I have any real answers but believe that the solution has to lie with better education to make people more aware of the issues.

I used to be totally against any form of piste licence or certificate of competency but I'm beginning to have second thoughts. It would be interesting to see what happened if some resorts introduced a simple "driving test" that had to be taken before you could go anywhere other than the nursury slopes unless with an instructor. Nothing too onerous, just a quick run down a blue or green run and a written or verbal test dealing with the rules of the piste and basic courtesy. Those resorts might become more popular amongst the responsible crowd and the idea could spread.

Maybe a test certificate should result in a discount on the lift-pass - which would allow the scheme to be phased in without being actually complusory.

But I do feel that the issue is more complex than a case of "louts" vs "decent fellows". Many people are capable of moments of inconsiderate behaviour or, as ise has mentioned, even deliberate hinderence because someone happens to be on a board.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Loki, Hear what you're saying, but "stupid turns out of the rhythm".... well it might appear like that if you're arriving quickly from behind, but people can make sudden changes in direction for all sorts of reasons, including enforced or accidental turns, and the only real answer is to ski within your limits (ie allow enough space for the unexpected) when pistes are congested. I do agree though that something should be done to persuade skiers/boarders away from those pistes that are beyond their ability, it's really frustrating to find a whole bunch of people either prone, frozen with fear, or sliding uncontrollably on narrow slopes that are beyond them.

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Several times last week I offered a "pole tow" to a boarder on a flat section, and each time it was met with a look of incomprehension (before being gratefully accepted). I have several boarder friends, so think nothing of doing this - it's a lot less effort than you expect - but obviously very few others do it.

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For me it comes down to two things, firstly boarders and skiers use the slopes in different ways, and will tend to take a different route down the fall line at different speeds, in much the same way that beginner and advanced skiers will use different routes at different speeds. Whenever you get this situation you tend to get collisions between the different types of user. That's why you tend to find that you bump into someone of a different "tribe" to you on the way down. It's not inherent in their behaviour, it's just a fact of life. Secondly, as mentioned before, high capacity lift systems have meant that overcrowding has been moved to the slopes from the bottom of the lift queue, therefore leading to more collisions.

I do wish that people would stop looking around for other people to blame for their collsions, and instead look towards themselves to see what they can do to modify their own behaviour. For instance if you find yourself coming over blind crests into groups of boarders sitting on the snow, perhaps you should ask yourself what you are doing coming over a blind crest at a speed that you can't stop in time. I'm sorry but if you want to come over blind crests flat out, then you should enrole in a racing camp, and practice on a closed off piste, just like if you want to race your car flat out then you ought to go to a circuit to practice.

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Tony Lane - sometimes it's ignorance. Having never (really) boarded, it took me ages to realise that sometimes overtaking a boarder on a trail, in the same manner as a skier, can cause them problems. I wasn't being inconsiderate, I just had no idea how a boarder steers or brakes (still not that sure, but enough to know). I always try and give them a wide berth, in such situations but it's not always possible. I do try not to cause them problems now, but again, couldn't guarantee that I don't.

Kramer - just like all drivers are "good, safe drivers", yet many "other drivers" are, all skiers/boarders are "good and safe" whilst many other skiers/boarders are good or safe. Confused

After all it is free

Tony Lane,

I could not believe your idea could work in practice.

Skiing and boarding involve no more than a person coming down a slope under his/her own gravity without any mechanical aid. Technically it is not that difficult to do. Difficulties arise mainly from people going at a speed beyond their ability. If a skier has time and therefore space to correct/adjust his action he has no problem with other users of the slope.

No resort owner in the world would dare to implement such a certify-first and skipass second because nobody would bother to go to such a resort. There are a lot of choices around and a great number of skiers are highly mobile doing only day trips and weekends. They go where the snow is and not to a resort offering long queues for passing some stupid tests.

If a person passes the test and certified his skill on blue and green slopes he can still be a killer to others when charging down the red of black slopes.

There are a lot of us skiing in France but couldn't even say Bonjour. What chance do we have to pass a written or verbal test?

If a scheme doesn't make commercial sense we are just wasting time to talk about it.

In my limited experience with North American resorts I must admit my admiration of the ski patrols in Whistler. There are always around to talk to skiers doing things that are not supposed to and have the right to remove their ski passes. They would tell people off politely to move away downstream of a summit point where incoming skiers may not have adequate vision and crash into them. They also shout and chase anybody skiing too fast on the slope.

Never seen such thing in Europe even if such thing exists here.

Been wonder whether a parent was doing the right thing recently in Are. When his son, about 6 to 8 years old, failed to cope with a black slope he carried him on his shoulder and skied down the rest of the slope. It caught my attention because the two together was an extraordinary tall object for moving down a steep and mogulled black.

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