 Poster: A snowHead
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So there we were, the wife and I, the last day of our week in La Plagne and she'd been asking to do the 'Kamikaze' piste all week. Well I gave in and the inevitable happened. The top steep section was scrapped and we were both on tired legs and froze - cue 15 mins of horrendous side slipping and swearing to get down the first bit.
However, this is not my story. It's what happened next which was a great learning point and something share-worthy. We then headed over to above Montalbert, where, after I'd finished swearing at the wife for choosing a piste with a name like Kamikaze I said she was barred from choosing any further runs. I pulled out the piste map and said "there, that looks nice" and pointed to the red piste known as "Grenouilles" - my basic French told me this meant 'Frogs' and was therefore bound to be a much nicer run. The first 500m were eerily quiet and flat as a pancake. Alarm bells should have started ringing. Instead we reached the 'wall' part of the run and again both looked at each other in dismay. We were worn out and lacking in confidence. off came the skis and walk back up the 500m of flat we did - much more swearing was required.
The moral of the story? 1) Don't bother trying to interpret anything about a run by it's name, and 2) Beware runs which have an unnaturally flattish start for their colour grading... clearly colour gradings are worked out on an average basis - so if the start of a Red is 'blueish' in nature, then there's likely to be a 'blackish' bit further ahead to balance it out!!
Anyone else been down Grenouilles piste in La Plagne? What's it actually like? I fear we may need to go back and beat our nemesis on our next visit in two weeks but with fresh legs and second day confidence!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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we were both on tired legs
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If one were to tackle a piste with a name of 'Kamikaze', it's better done with fresh not tired legs.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@abc,
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If one were to tackle a piste with a name of 'Kamikaze', it's better done with fresh not tired legs.
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Lesson very much learned on that one!! This was our 4th trip to La Plagne and we'd avoided it on all 3 previous trips!
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chopkins13, Grenouilles also has a flat bottom bit. Not surprising there is a short steep middle bit.
(Next time take the very pleasant blue down: Les Adrets)
Anyway, well done for having the courage to walk back up.
Then wouldn't it have been nice to enjoy a long cool beer and reflect on the various experiences of skiing, but there isn't a restaurant at the top of the Montalbert Gondola. Bonkers! Bordsurfin suggests there might be one in a couple of years. Insane. We want one now!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Jonpim, haha yeah it didn't feel like a courageous thing to do walking back up, particularly as it was very warm! In hindsight it was definitely the right thing to do. We can go back and tick that one off on another day!
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There is a piste in Les Prodains very aptly named Crot the femnine of which is Crotte 
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just to say that runs are not graded on the average steepness, but always by the steepest part of the piste, so if you did a 2 mile flat run which on its own would be graded blue, if it had a severely steep 200 yard section in it, it would have to be graded black.
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| chopkins13 wrote: |
Beware runs which have an unnaturally flattish start for their colour grading... clearly colour gradings are worked out on an average basis - so if the start of a Red is 'blueish' in nature, then there's likely to be a 'blackish' bit further ahead to balance it out!!
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I have to disagree with this bit about runs graded based on the average gradient. My understanding is that in theory a run is graded based on the gradient/difficulty of the steepest section. If a mostly gentle run has a short very steep section it should still be a black.
Saying that a lot of French runs seem to have inconsistent gradings in my experience.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| compostcorner wrote: |
| just to say that runs are not graded on the average steepness, but always by the steepest part of the piste, so if you did a 2 mile flat run which on its own would be graded blue, if it had a severely steep 200 yard section in it, it would have to be graded black. |
You beat me to it!
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@SlipnSlide,
Well La Plagne's own website even refers to the steep section as being black in nature:
"This track was blue until 1995, a panel then letting skiers the difficulty of its wall: "Black run on 50 meters"
(Translated from here: http://www.perso-laplagne.fr/Pistes2.htm#Grenouilles)
So by their own admission, it's a blue with a black bit in the middle = a red 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The moral of the story? 1) Don't bother trying to interpret anything about a run by it's name, and 2) Beware runs which have an unnaturally flattish start for their colour grading... clearly colour gradings are worked out on an average basis - so if the start of a Red is 'blueish' in nature, then there's likely to be a 'blackish' bit further ahead to balance it out!!
I understood that they were rated from the gradient of the steepest part of the run rather than an average. Have to agree though that there are black runs and BLACK RUNS and indeed red runs and RED RUNS! At least you got back safely.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Also meant to say be aware that the same run can vary dramatically according to time of day. We did a black run in Austria quite happily first thing in the morning and thought we would do the same run again to end the day. However, the sun had been on the run over the day and it was now in shade so had developed into an ice sheet. We saw another skier fall and slide the entire length of the slope (approx. 300m) before coming to rest on a flatter part of the run. Whilst we got down safely it was not the enjoyable end to the day we had hoped for and our lesson has certainly been learned that we will only tackle that slope before it goes into shade.
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| chopkins13 wrote: |
@SlipnSlide,
Well La Plagne's own website even refers to the steep section as being black in nature:
"This track was blue until 1995, a panel then letting skiers the difficulty of its wall: "Black run on 50 meters"
(Translated from here: http://www.perso-laplagne.fr/Pistes2.htm#Grenouilles)
So by their own admission, it's a blue with a black bit in the middle = a red |
Well if that's the case then the La Plagne piste graders are at fault then IMO. Surely the point of a grading is to let a skier know whether they'll be able to safely complete a run or not before they start it. The average gradient is irrelevant in this regard. Its the most difficult bit which anyone would be concerned about.
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You know it makes sense.
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Well if that's the case then the La Plagne piste graders are at fault then IMO. Surely the point of a grading is to let a skier know whether they'll be able to safely complete a run or not before they start it. The average gradient is irrelevant in this regard. Its the most difficult bit which anyone would be concerned about.
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Couldn't agree more.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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It's just taken me 10 minutes to work out where you were. 
I can imagine the amount of people that head down that run.
'This is very red is Dave'
"No John, er hang on a minute...'
I can't imagine the amount of people that head up the top of the Grand Rochette for the 'lovely looking' Mira.
A smooth blue that turns into a huge steep face that claims many people.
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Poster: A snowHead
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That said, a friend of mine is constantly trying to convince me that there's no such thing as colours or even pistes, it's all just mountain...... not sure I'm sold on that philosophy yet!
For me it's all about the snow conditions and the skier's condition (physical and mental) - at that point we were tired, mentally scarred from Kamikaze and it just seemed like a no-go. I'll report back at the end of March how we faired second time around!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| chopkins13 wrote: |
| For me it's all about the snow conditions and the skier's condition (physical and mental) - at that point we were tired, mentally scarred from Kamikaze and it just seemed like a no-go. I'll report back at the end of March how we faired second time around!! |
That's probably the ultimate lesson.
I distinctly remember (in one of the snowhead bashes in 3V) asking one of my roommate about a blue run one must take going home at the end of each day... whether she find it a bit of a challenge. I'm a fairly advance skier but I found a section of that blue run required my full attention due to it being chopped up by the high volume of traffic: snow got pushed into piles resembling giant moguls (albeit soft ones). The roomful of mostly intermediate snowheads agree in unison that section was quite difficult to be considered a blue piste. But they all thought it was them being rubbish rather than then the piste being graded wrong.... Well, the piste wasn't graded 'wrong'. It was just the combination of high traffic and a sharp bend caused the snow to pile up resulting in a much more difficult condition than what a simple gradient number or colour would normally indicate.
On good weather day with soft snow, many of the notorious black piste can be easily done by even advanced beginners. But if they use that to judge their ability and willingly gone to other black piste on a day with refrozen wet snow, they could be in for a rather nasty surprise.
Condition makes the day. In the end, your friend was right:
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| a friend of mine is constantly trying to convince me that there's no such thing as colours or even pistes, it's all just mountain..... |
You're skiing in a natural setting. The mountain can have many moods...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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We had a fairly brutal experience doing le Coqs (hehehe) in La Plagne above Montalbert. Very unforgiving black run with no 'relief' sections, just huge moguls and ice. Not being able to see your hand in front of your hand didn't help either..
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
Not being able to see your hand in front of your hand didn't help either..
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Well you couldn't see your hand because your other hand was in the way by the sounds of things..... 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Oops 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Is this a good point to bring up the lessons needed discussion again ?
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Is the bottom of Grenouilles quite flat and narrow by a stream? If it is then I think I accidentally did that last March when it was closed and I didn't have the courage to walk back. Cover was a bit thin, although not as thin as in some places in the 3v over Christmas, and the fact the snow was quite soft made it easy enough to get down as long as you dodged the really patchy bits. I didn't think it was any steeper than Kamikaze though, although I did do the latter early morning when it was hardpacked and icy in places all the way down. I also tried it later in the afternoon when it was a bit more cut up and my legs were tired, thankfully the legs didn't have to do much as I caught an edge and did half the slope on my face before coming to a stop
I think that La Plagne has quite a few mis-labelled pistes, or pistes that have been graded when conditions are perfect. As @Whisky_priest, said Mira is hard work the majority of the time and you see quite a few people struggling on it. Blanchets (and the run off the back from the same place that joins to Levasset) both are frequently busy and have very steep bits that can be tricky. It was actually pretty much the first run my mate ever did on skis, having had no lessons and only skied from Belle Plagne to Bellecote before failing to find a nursery slope and getting on a chairlift. It was, in retrospect, a stupid idea.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| abc wrote: |
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we were both on tired legs
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If one were to tackle a piste with a name of 'Kamikaze', it's better done with fresh not tired legs. |
Au contraire: if a run is named Kamikaze, it is completely appropriate to tackle it with tired legs
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It was actually pretty much the first run my mate ever did on skis, having had no lessons and only skied from Belle Plagne to Bellecote before failing to find a nursery slope and getting on a chairlift. It was, in retrospect, a stupid idea.
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It was, even in prospect, a stupid idea!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| chopkins13 wrote: |
For me it's all about the snow conditions and the skier's condition (physical and mental) - at that point we were tired, mentally scarred from Kamikaze and it just seemed like a no-go. I'll report back at the end of March how we faired second time around!! |
Absolutely! One thing I hate about an unknown resort is doing each run for the first time. Another thing I hate is any snow conditions that don`t involve lots of fresh snow lol
I have no faith in piste maps and no faith in gradings. What is difficult for one skier may be easy for another, and yes I know good technique is supposed to be the answer but snow conditions, attitude, frame of mind and level of fatigue all contribute hugely to the perception of a run and the pleasure/angst of completing it!
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One thing I hate about an unknown resort is doing each run for the first time.
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That's my favourite bit about going to a new resort!
The worst bit is ending up with a mediocre lunch if we don't know where is good
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You know it makes sense.
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I have no faith in piste maps and no faith in gradings. What is difficult for one skier may be easy for another, and yes I know good technique is supposed to be the answer but snow conditions, attitude, frame of mind and level of fatigue all contribute hugely to the perception of a run and the pleasure/angst of completing it!
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Some years ago, I stood frozen on top of a black piste because, while there were multiple easy routes down from that point according to the map, NONE OF THEM WERE OPEN due to insufficient snow! To make matters worse, the said black piste was quite slick looking with not any trace of snow on it.
I made it with shaking legs, thanks for no one else being in my way requiring any maneuvering on my part, for I wasn't in control of neither speed nor direction of my travel.
After that incident, I vowed I would take as many lessons as necessary till I could COMFORTABLY ski down any black piste even when it's icy!
It probably took me another 2 years. Can't remember how many lessons. I can say now I can 'get down' SAFELY any black piste. When I say safely, I mean IN CONTROL of both speed and direction regardless of condition. No ifs and buts.
These days, I only consult a piste map when it's time for me to return to the same valley where I started. I don't look at the color of the piste.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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now my health issues give me a good excuse
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Actually, that's now becoming the overriding motivation for me taking more lessons (I've gone almost a decade without lessons).
As I'm getting older, I realize there will come a day when I will not be as strong as I used to be. If I want to continue skiing beyond that, my chances will be better if I have the best technique I can master so I will be able to ski with the least amount of strength and energy.
And the time to fine tune my technique is now, rather than wait till I couldn't ski more than a couple hours a day.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@abc, Absolutely correct!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I remember it being very liberating when my skiing got to the level where I could go up any lift and know that it didn't really matter what the pistes were off the top, so long as it was a piste I would be able to ski it safely even if not stylishly.
We did ski Grenouilles in January, and it was a bit of a surprise, and a bit of a challenge to one of our group, but not so much that it was a problem, fortunately. I do agree that it was blue with 50m of black, though.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| karin wrote: |
I remember it being very liberating when my skiing got to the level where I could go up any lift and know that it didn't really matter what the pistes were off the top, so long as it was a piste I would be able to ski it safely even if not stylishly.
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Yep! That being the result.
I know this isn't the "I don't need lesson" thread. But really that was the motivation for me, and it worked out very well as an outcome. Now a skiing holiday is a far more relaxing holiday than I ever remembered.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I would say the app Fatmap is great to stop things like this
You can look at a run and see the gradient at any point , the max gradient and the average
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No that it won't 
However its useful in an unfamiliar area to give at least a little clue.
If you look at gradients and colours in resorts you know you may find it does open a few eyes !!
I am told the gradient mapping is fairly accurate and its a huge step forward in ski apps
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if you do find yourself on a very steep section that has been scraped and icy then a good tip is to ski the edges. They often look the worst bits as all the snow ends up there and it can look bumpy but the lumpy stuff can be your friend an slow you down and give control as opposed to the sheet ice in the middle of the piste.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@harvsurrey, I will check it out, thank you.
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@cameronphillips2000 +1
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FAQ
