 Poster: A snowHead
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Recently passed me BASI level 1 and am now starting to pick up some shadowing hours. Luckily I have been able to go to my local dry slope, and am going Hemel to do some at no cost, which is fantastic. However, in an attempt to diversify my shadowing experience I thought I would try Snowtrax in Christchurch as well ( I also learnt to ski there years ago). I was a little bit shocked to be told that is would cost me £17 per hour, which would be £595 in total to get to me 35 hours!
I appreciate how lucky I am that Southampton and Hemel are prepared to do it at no cost, but £17 per hour seems quite steep to me. I was wondering what other peoples experiences have been?
Turns out I was wrong, the £17 covers you for 4 hours when shadowing.
Thanks
Oh and I have to say how impressed I was with Southampton yesterday. Very welcoming and really helped me feel a part of the session and let me get involved. It was a great experience!
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 24-02-16 8:35; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I paid nothing for my daughter at Tallington Lakes Dry Slope where she did all of her shadowing.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Done properly shadowing should bring benefits to everyone involved. It would never have occurred to me that a slope might charge for it, and I think many clubs see instructor training as an important part of their remit as without sufficient instructors they'll struggle to survive.
I've shadowed at a few different places and the most any of them have asked for is enthusiasm and commitment.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@skimottaret, Deal 
@kieranm, I'm glad you said that, as that is what I was thinking.
Oh well. I guess I was just a bit shocked. The £17 is the cost of a recreational skier for 1 hour.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| jonkgray78 wrote: |
@skimottaret, Deal
@kieranm, I'm glad you said that, as that is what I was thinking.
Oh well. I guess I was just a bit shocked. The £17 is the cost of a recreational skier for 1 hour. |
Maybe you asked somebody who wasn't sure what you meant by shadowing then? Wouldn't expect to pay even a reduced price, but to charge you the same as any other visitor, sounds odd.
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Just tell them that's fine.
You only charge £34 per hour for the work you will be doing, so if they just send a cheque for the difference 
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Ok, at the risk of sticking my head above the parapet and getting shot at, we do charge for shadowing hours, £5/hour. We used not to, but as @kieranm, says, it should benefit both parties, and we felt that we were putting considerable effort into helping teach BASI 1's how to teach, and getting very little back for it. If people are local enough we are quite open to adding them to our staff, but mostly once people had done their shadowing we never saw them again.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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How on earth can anywhere justify charging to shadow? That's like charging someone to intern!
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| karin wrote: |
| Ok, at the risk of sticking my head above the parapet and getting shot at, we do charge for shadowing hours, £5/hour... |
Which dry slope do you mean?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The BASI 1 course teaches about the progression, the demos, improves your own skiing, but you spend very little time teaching. When people come to us to shadow, they sit on the shoulder of an experienced instructor who teaches them how to look after customers, conduct and structure a lesson, spot faults and work out how to correct them, etc. The instructor is therefore not only teaching his client, but also the shadower, and it can be quite hard work to do both jobs effectively.
We don't have lots of group lessons and kids clubs etc that people can cut their teeth on by helping out with, we don't get much back from the shadower until they are sufficiently qualified to be able to be given a private lesson to take.
We know it's controversial, but we are a small slope and all this shadowing malarkey wasn't really working for us!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@karin, in your circumstances that doesn't sound unreasonable and I'd also say that it sounds like you're taking the shadowing more seriously than some. My guess is trainee instructors will learn a lot more from that arrangement than the other end of the spectrum of just helping out by picking kids up in a large group lesson. The dry slopes I've been involved with have tended to have a long established relationship with the trainee instructors already (often due to them having been kids training at that club for years, and then working through the SSE system which is more club-based than BASI) and so that kind of charging isn't necessary. Perhaps an alternative approach would be to say that the shadowing is free, as long as you give something back to the club and stay involved with it after qualifying. To me that obligation goes without saying, but I'm sure for others it's not so obvious, which is perhaps why you've had to start charging.
What really disappoints me is when later on in the BASI system you find trainees who have somehow blagged their way through without actually putting the shadowing or teaching hours in. Those on gap-year type courses for example will often do their BASI1 and BASI2 at the start of the season and will get to the end of the BASI2 with never having had to actually teach a group of their own, and even then if they are training full time for their BASI3 in France for example (as many do) there is very little opportunity for them to do practical teaching. In this respect training and working at dry slopes and snow domes in the UK, or a country where you can use your existing qualification, is I think a much better platform for improving teaching and the UK slopes are doing a pretty good job at getting people the necessary experience.
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@karin, I think that sounds very reasonable, and as someone who is new to all of this I was expecting something along those lines. I'm guessing the people shadowing will be using, at least, the centres skis as well.
I have to be fair to Snowtrax here, as I did get the wrong end of the stick. £17 per hour is the skiing rate, however, if shadowing, it covers you for a 4 hour block. If I was prepared to use my own skis it would be £13.50.
@kieranm, I agree, and personally I am getting so much out of this experience. So far I have seen 3 different instructors take a group of complete beginners, with each one doing things differently and successfully! That kind of insight has been invaluable to me.
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You know it makes sense.
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@jonkgray78, make notes, then you can refer to the them later, it doesn't take long to work out your personal methods cherry picking the best things other instructors use, and developing your own toolbox. Cover all levels, and try cover kids, teens, adults as each need different teaching methods and terminology
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Ray Zorro, Guildford slope.
@kieranm,
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Perhaps an alternative approach would be to say that the shadowing is free, as long as you give something back to the club and stay involved with it after qualifying. To me that obligation goes without saying, but I'm sure for others it's not so obvious, which is perhaps why you've had to start charging.
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Exactly, given the option we'd much prefer to keep people on our list of instructors.
@jonkgray78, If Guildford is anywhere near you, you might want to give us a call and see yet another take on things. And yes, people do tend to use our skis.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@karin, when showdowers spend time in your skiroom fitting people for boots and skis, or do some other admin work, do you charge them for that now as well?
I know for a FACT that this type of shadowing has not been unusual at your slope...but it was in the pre-charge days...and is 100% acceptable to BASI
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
How on earth can anywhere justify charging to shadow? That's like charging someone to intern!
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there are plenty of paid-for internships.....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@pam w, "plenty"  Really?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@pam w, hmmm, but even so, the long term benefits make an internship with an investment bank slightly more worthwhile than for someone hoping to teach as an L1 instructor for a few hours a week on minimum wage.
Thankfully there are slopes out there that are grateful for the services of trainee L1's and see them as an investment for the future.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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If the instructors at Guildford are as invested in their trainees as Karin says they are, and I lived reasonably close by I would have jumped at the chance of shadowing there. I think at the big Snowdomes, shadowing can be a bit hit and miss. At least I found it a fairly long drawn out process, and many times I turned up and there wasn't anything suitable to shadow. If you don't mind doing it all in rentals or managing the under 6s lift queue on a weekend morning, then you can knock the hours out very quickly. If you want most of your shadowing to be group lessons with an experienced instructor (not someone who only finished shadowing themselves the day before!), then the £5 pales into insignificance compared to the petrol on trips where you didn't get any hours. Depending on where you are on the cash rich/time poor spectrum, £5 for a shadowing experience which is fairly well guaranteed to happen and further your own development could be a pretty good deal.
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@rungsp, sounds like you've been to us then?
No, we wouldn't just give someone admin or kitting up to do, but a shadower may do some of both as part of the lesson that they are shadowing. We don't have full time reception staff (as you probably know), so the instructors often get involved in the registration, kitting up, and rebooking of their clients.
I know that BASI allows any ski school experience hours, but we feel it's a bit pointless unless they are shadowing stuff relevant to teaching?
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Thankfully there are slopes out there that are grateful for the services of trainee L1's and see them as an investment for the future.
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Unless shadowers can come and shadow daytime in September and October, or the 4.30 slot New Year to Easter, (which are when we teach school groups), it's difficult for L1's to be of much actual service to us with the private lessons we do most of the time. We can't give them a client to teach without tying up an instructor supervising them, and there is only so much help that is needed with private lessons. I'm not saying that they can't be of service at all, but the opportunities are limited.
@Gämsbock, thanks for the vote of approval! We also let our shadowers know when there is stuff going on that would be worth them being there for.
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Hillend charge around £50 for a minimum of 35 hours shadowing. I paid it although I also shadowed at Hemel and Braehead.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Chill factor e don't charge for shadowing and there are lots of opportunities to get involved with a variety of lessons. It was invaluable experience for me pre L1 and of course post. If you're keen and have the right attitude you can be helpful and then it's beneficial for both shadower and instructor/centre. It's also a great way to get to know the place and for them to get to know you.
@kieranm, I totally agree and I'm starting to get brassed off with people faking their hours and general attitudes to shadowing and working in the UK.
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When The Lad was 17 he did his shadowing with a Swiss ski school.
"Ah, Bon...you wish to shadow?"
"These two are your students for this morning, shall we meet at 12.30 back here? Au-revoir"
In at the deep end!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@rungsp, 
I did some of my shadowing with a couple of BASI Trainers in France. It was certainly a shock to be asked to lead and demo a part of an off-piste lesson (under the close supervision of the instructor), as all I was expecting to do was lurk around in the background. Great experience though, and I soon discovered that shadowing was one of the most important parts of my training (I still try to shadow mow, when I can).
I occasionally have shadows for my sessions at Hemel, usually clients of IOS that I've taught, and I enjoy the process. I try to offer a running commentary to the newly qualified instructor to explain what I'm seeing, what I want to change or develop about the client's skiing, what indicators of success I'm looking for, and what I'm actually skiing. Plus I'll ask the shadow to set a line or a speed so the client follows them, offer some feedback (which I listen to carefully to ensure its the same as I wild say) and maybe be my Demo Monkey for some drills.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@rungsp, fantastic
@rob@rar, I think shadowing is a great experience. I did way above the required hours and still shadow when I get the opportunity. Shame there are so many who think shadowing is just something to get signed off as quickly as possible and with the bare minimum of hours they can get someone to sign them off with.
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FAQ
