 Poster: A snowHead
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Does anyone know if there are any laws in France regarding causing injury through negligence whilst skiing/boarding? For example, guy goes to overtake someone on the piste but skis/boards straight into him and injuring him for life, would the Police be obliged or wish to be involved?
I am asking because I am aware of a case whereby someone was hit from behind and sustained an injury. He reported it to the Police but they said that don't get involved in such situations. However, I have spoken to other people who have seen situations on the piste where the Police were taking pictures, notes and measurements etc. and seemingly gaining evidence.
Does anyone know the proper legal situation regarding such events in France?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Is it a serious injury? Did he need to be air lifted? Is there evidence that the collision caused all the problems. Do you have the name and address of the third party?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Depends on the nationality of the injured party. 
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| waitrose wrote: |
Does anyone know if there are any laws in France regarding causing injury through negligence whilst skiing/boarding? For example, guy goes to overtake someone on the piste but skis/boards straight into him and injuring him for life, would the Police be obliged or wish to be involved?
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If there is evidence of an infraction or if there is a death then the police should get involved if they are called. For example: hit and run, drunk skiing, reckless skiing. Most big ski resorts will have a police station.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I've only ever seen the police involved in cases of extremely poor snow safety, such as chalet hosts showing punters around the best restaurants without holding the Eurotest.
In Italy however, the pisteurs are Police...
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| under a new name wrote: |
| I've only ever seen the police involved in cases of extremely poor snow safety, such as chalet hosts showing punters around the best restaurants without holding the Eurotest. |
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| waitrose wrote: |
| He reported it to the Police |
What kind of Police did he report it to ? Police Nationale or Gendarmes ?
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or Police Municipale?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Filthyphil30k, it was a serious injury but he wasn't airlifted. The collision certainly did cause the injury and yes the name and the address of the third party could be obtained.
@davidof, it was reported to the Gendarme but they said they cannot investigate such events which was surprising to me and I can only assume it must be considered as a civil rather than a criminal matter. You say the Police should get involved, are you sure, do you know under which law/s this applies or have any further information?
@rjs, it was reported to the Gendarme, do you know if the Police Nationale or Police Municipale would be more interested.
@ringingmaster, @under a new name, hilarious.......................not.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Sat 13-02-16 22:28; edited 3 times in total
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| waitrose wrote: |
@ringingmaster, @under a new name, hilarious.......................not. |
And there goes any further help you'll be getting on this topic. If you want the correct advice without a hint of humour, turn off your computer and visit a solicitor (of google one!)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@PaulC1984, nothing wrong with a bit of humour in appropriate situations but this isn't one of them. Also, humour is supposed to be funny and as I said it wasn't funny.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@waitrose, pretty hilarious from my point of view.
I mean, get real. You or your friends have a potentially serious legal and injurious issue and you seek help on here! really?
and get ersey about it?
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You know it makes sense.
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I would also assume the injury occurred last season? So why now seek advice....
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| waitrose wrote: |
@davidof, it was reported to the Gendarme but they said they cannot investigate such events which was surprising to me and I can only assume it must be considered as a civil rather than a criminal matter. You say the Police should get involved, are you sure, do you know under which law/s this applies or have any further information?
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Of course they can. If they are not interested you need to contact the prosecutor or tribunal (parquet) and make a complaint and then you have to become a civil party to your own complaint. Then the prosecutor will have to investigate. You'd really need a lawyer to do this. You can also contact the prefet who is responsible for the gendarmerie in his department and for security and the mayor who has a particular responsibility for security in his commune. The police municipal don't have any capacity to investigate and I don't think the police national operate in any ski resorts.
Coming back to possible offences:
1. La violation d'une obligation de sécurité ou de prudence. This could be disobeying the FIS code in a serious manner - I note at least two cases in Chambery in 2007 concerning FIS rule 3 after an injury to a skier. So the FIS rules do form jurisprudence.
2. L'exposition d'autrui à risque de mort ou de blessures: Reckless endangerment.
3. If you don't stop after an accident that would also be an infraction (Non-assistance à personne en danger)
Obviously it is up to a court to decide if there has been such an offence committed.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Sat 17-10-15 18:32; edited 3 times in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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@under a new name, I am not getting arsey about it, I simply don't think what you or the other guy said was funny.
@PaulC1984, you found it hilarious, now that is hilarious.
@under a new name, I am asking on Snowheads because I believe that the total experience on here of skiing/boarding in the alps is enormous and I was just wondering if anyone here has any knowledge of the system in France with regards to Snowsports and acts of negligence on the slopes, perhaps due to personal experience. I have sought legal advice in this country but the lawyers I have seen have no knowledge of French law which is understandable. I have explored the insurance route via my insurers but this is proving difficult for various reasons so I am tentatively exploring a different approach. In addition, I thought that just maybe there is a Snowhead who has legal qualifications who maybe lives in France or has dealt with similar cases. All of this is of course is a longshot, but then maybe I might be lucky.
Overall, considering the dangers on the slopes and how someone's negligence or recklessness can cause serious injury or even death I would have thought that it should be a Police matter and I am just wondering if anyone here has any knowledge of this?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| waitrose wrote: |
[b]@under a new name, I am asking on Snowheads because I believe that the total experience on here of skiing/boarding in the alps is enormous and I was just wondering if anyone here has any knowledge of the system in France with regards to Snowsports and acts of negligence on the slopes, perhaps due to personal experience. I have sought legal advice in this country but the lawyers I have seen have no knowledge of French law which is understandable. I have explored the insurance route via my insurers but this is proving difficult for various reasons so I am tentatively exploring a different approach. In addition, I thought that just maybe there is a Snowhead who has legal qualifications who maybe lives in France or has dealt with similar cases. All of this is of course is a longshot, but then maybe I might be lucky.
Overall, considering the dangers on the slopes and how someone's negligence or recklessness can cause serious injury or even death I would have thought that it should be a Police matter and I am just wondering if anyone here has any knowledge of this? |
So is it you that was injured or family member under your insurance?
I think if the insurers are not getting involved then you will have a lot of difficulty. If the injury is that bad you are looking at criminal action then obviously it is serious enough for a payout under the insurance. If insurers think there is a chance to recover that payout they will chase it pretty vigorously,
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| davidof wrote: |
| waitrose wrote: |
@davidof, it was reported to the Gendarme but they said they cannot investigate such events which was surprising to me and I can only assume it must be considered as a civil rather than a criminal matter. You say the Police should get involved, are you sure, do you know under which law/s this applies or have any further information?
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Of course they can. In that case you need to contact the prosecutor or tribunal (parquet) and make a complaint and then you have to become a civil party to your own complaint. Then the prosecutor will have to investigate. You'd really need a lawyer to do this. You can also contact the prefet who is responsible for the gendarmerie in his department and for security and the mayor who has a particular responsibility for security in his commune. The police municipal don't have any capacity to investigate and I don't think the police national operate in any ski resorts.
Coming back to possibly offences:
1. La violation d'une obligation de sécurité ou de prudence. This could be disobeying the FIS code in a serious manner
2. L'exposition d'autrui à risque de mort ou de blessures: Reckless endangerment.
3. If you don't stop after an accident that would also be an infraction (Non-assistance à personne en danger)
Obviously it is up to a court to decide if there has been such an offence committed. |
Thank you very much for taking the time to provide this information. You appear very knowledgeable so may I clarify something please: -
My understanding is that in the UK if something is a criminal matter then the Police will investigate in order to see if there are grounds for criminal proceedings. On the other hand if something is deemed as a civil matter then the Police will not investigate and it is then up to the aggrieved to bring civil proceedings via the appropriate courts. Do you know if the French system is similar please?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@waitrose, you might get a more sympathetic hearing if you were a bit less cryptic. And a lot less tetchy
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@speed098, the reason the insurers are reluctant to pursue it is due to the cost of taking the matter to court which in their case would be a civil court. Therefore they will not proceed.
However, the reason for me posting here today is because I am wondering if it could be a criminal matter in which case if it were the Police in the UK they would have to investigate and I am wondering if the situation is the same in France. I thought this the day after the accident but as I said I went to the local Gendarme in resort and they said they that such cases are nothing to do with them. However, I have long since wondered if indeed that is the case as I know that individual police officers do not know everything and maybe the guy on duty that day was wrong.
I have also seen and heard of the Police being on the piste taking measurements and reports etc. and seemingly investigating an accident and wondering if in fact they could investigate the incident I am referring to here.
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Let's take a recent, high profile, accident. When Michael Schumacher crashed into rocks skiing off piste there was a long and extensive investigation by the authorities, especially the gendarmerie, to determine responsibility. The ski resort? Go Pro? The Helmet manufacturer, Michael Schumacher? All were in the frame initially. Obviously if it is purely a civil matter your own legal team will take the matter to court just as in the UK but how do you know that if there was no investigation?
If you want to go further you need to speak to a lawyer who is competent in these kind of matters who is registered in the area where the accident took place and they can advise. Did the piste patrol write up the accident (procès-verbal) ? If you are after compensation then it will be through the civil court system but that doesn't preclude an investigation by the piste patrol or gendarmerie at the time of the incident. If you have a car accident in France you always have the possibility of asking the police to attend the scene and write up the incident; this is especially true if someone is injured.
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@pam w, not wishing to be cryptic Pam and certainly not being tetchy, just pointing out that certain comments in my view were not funny unless you are aged about 10.
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@PaulC1984, you found it hilarious, now that is hilarious. - WOW play ground tactics, I'm feeling hurt
@waitrose, you might get a more sympathetic hearing if you were a bit less cryptic. And a lot less tetchy - This is sound advice, and let me give a little of my own. Getting tetchy with Snowheads who have been here a while won't get you anywhere, and Id especially avoid rubbing pam w up the wrong way 
Good luck with any case you think you may have, but I'd say you are on a hiding to nothing - If the Police / piste patrol weren't interested, id imagine no report was written. If you don't have any video footage or credible witnesses id also suggest you'd not have a chance.
Obviously telling us who / how the person was injured would help - Given there was no airlift (or blood wagon as I assume you would have mentioned this) was used, did the person need medical treatment? was their insurance used? if not then there really isn't much evidence. and in this case Id suggest Rule 5 of the rules needs to be applied. While your at it, apply Rule 7 to your good self.
You say the persons details 'could' be obtained, not that they have...... that is a little interesting - was the person skiing with your group?
Last edited by After all it is free  on Sat 17-10-15 19:08; edited 2 times in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| waitrose wrote: |
| My understanding is that in the UK if something is a criminal matter then the Police will investigate in order to see if there are grounds for criminal proceedings. |
They don't have to and frequently do not. It's a judgement call they make all the time. There was a significant incident involving collective trespass near the village where I live, which (unlike simple trespass) is a criminal offence. The police did nothing because, they said, they didn't make enough manpower as another incident was in progress. Residents and the landowner were left wondering what we pay taxes for.
And yes you have been tetchy here.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Sat 17-10-15 19:19; edited 1 time in total
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@davidof, thank you David. I think I will try a local solicitor. That of course seems very obvious but at the time it was assumed the insurers would deal with it but one of the main problems is that the perpetrator lives outside Europe. And of course many things are easier in hindsight. Either way I am still curious to know if such an incident would be considered a criminal matter.
The pisteurs were not called because their assistance was not needed.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Sun 18-10-15 0:21; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| waitrose wrote: |
The pisteurs were not called because their assistance was not needed. |
Was the injury really that serious then?? You've eluded to it rather a lot.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@PaulC1984, my question was quite simple, there is no need to know any of the other details and hence I didn't wish to complicate matters.
As for the "rules", hilarious if you are still at school.
And despite threats that nobody here would help, there have been several intelligent and helpful posts which I am grateful for.
Actually, I think that you and Pam need to heed your own rules. Now don't get tetchy or arsey it is only me being 'hilarious'.
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| waitrose wrote: |
@PaulC1984, my question was quite simple, there is no need to know any of the other details.
As for the "rules", hilarious if you are still at school. |
Thats twice you've used that insult, time to be a little more original.
The Rules I will have you know are sacred amongst Snowheads
Time for you to lighten up. If you come on here and start to insult others, expect people to back fellow Snowheads up. Rule 7 my dear
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You know it makes sense.
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| waitrose wrote: |
And despite threats |
I don't make threats my dear
Wow this is the first time since I've been on the forum that I've had the displeasure of meeting somebody so obnoxious
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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@PaulC1984, I asked a serious question about an issue that has caused me a great deal of angst. Two people made comments which I thought were inappropriate and disrespectful. I made a very short comment to say that I didn't think they were funny, that is it, so please leave it now.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| PaulC1984 wrote: |
| waitrose wrote: |
The pisteurs were not called because their assistance was not needed. |
Was the injury really that serious then?? You've eluded to it rather a lot. |
My husband broke is neck on the piste. He was hit from behind and we don't know by whom, so yes, a hit and run who avoided liability. As he didn't realise the seriousness of his injury, he got up and skied to the bottom 200m away. No air lift and no piste patrol involved, although he did go straight to the doctors at the bottom of the pistes. No police involved either.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Hells Bells, yes, I understand exactly. The injury in question was a serious rupture of the ligaments in the shoulder. At first the pain was not major and the person was able to ski down albeit slowly. An x ray revealed the extent of the injury. Many people get taken down in blood wagons or are airlifted where the injuries turn out not to be not serious and vice versa. So as you point out @Hells Bells, just because someone makes their own way down doesn't mean the injury is not serious.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
the insurers are reluctant to pursue it is due to the cost of taking the matter to court which in their case would be a civil court. Therefore they will not proceed.
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@waitrose, Is the real problem that your injured friend's Insurers are not willing to pay up (i.e. cover the injured party for injury, treatment costs, loss of earnings etc) and are justifying this by saying that firstly there is no Police Report, and secondly that as the person who crashed into your friend lives outside Europe, they will not take the case further due to costs/difficulty/language etc? To me, your posts read as if you have hit a brick wall with the Insurers and are now trying to find other avenues to pursue.
You presumably have witness statements (you, your friend, anyone else who was a witness) plus contact details of the other party (who is also a witness). If your friend has been treated in resort or at home, there is presumably a medical report of come sort (you state in OP that this is something that has injured him for life). Even better would be videos, a Police/Ski Patrol report, photos etc, but you've got what you've got. This forms the basis of your friend's insurance claim.
If this is the case, you need to be speaking to a UK lawyer to understand how you can put pressure on the Insurance Company. It is not unusual for there to be no Police Report, or Ski Patrol report, following an accident on the piste unless someone needs assistance and the Police/Ski Patrol attend. E.g. an incident occurs; everyone gets up and dusts themselves off, skis home and in the evening or next morning, the casualty complains of aches, stiffness, bruises appear etc. and a doctor is consulted.
As for the other person not living in Europe; so what? Your friend is insured for accidents regardless of the nationality of the other party. In a European ski resort, there are of course going to be people from a huge variety of countries and you can't choose who is going to crash into you.
If the Insurance Company is not willing to pursue this, you would have to ask what the benefits are of taking out insurance.
(Disclaimer - I'm neither a lawyer or insurance expert)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@quinton, Yes hi Quinton. All medical expenses have been paid. The situation is that the guy who caused the accident was completely unapologetic and probably forgot all about it within 5 minutes except for the brief time he spent writing an accident report later that evening as required by the holiday company. My friend on the other hand had to curtail his holiday, endure a lot of pain, spent a lot of time seeing doctors and having physio etc, is still in constant pain and his shoulder is permanently disfigured. The fact that he is in that situation without the other person even apologising is not right. So whilst it is not financial compensation my friend is after it is more a case of letting the other guy know what he has done and to make him at least have to account for his actions as well as hopefully ski with more care and attention in the future. The insurance company won't pursue it because they feel it will be too expensive and they may not be able to cover their costs. Unfortunately there is no redress with the insurers because their reasoning is covered in the policy wording. So unless we can persuade the insurers via the ombudsman to think differently this avenue has been exhausted.
Therefore, if there is a law applying to reckless skiing on a piste in France then there could be mileage in a criminal case. We wanted to pursue this from the start but as I said earlier the Gendarme said it is not in their remit. But I thought it would be worth asking on Snowheads if anyone has any knowledge as to whether such laws exist in France.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@waitrose, so, really what you're saying is, you want revenge...
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| Chamcham wrote: |
| @waitrose, so, really what you're saying is, you want revenge... |
Justice and revenge are a fine line, but I agree this is how it comes across to me.
I can't see for one second that the injured person will get anywhere in terms of compensation or prosecution, the only thing that will happen is a large dent in your wallet. Having fractured my shoulder skiing (2 operations and still not sorted properly) I feel his pain, however Skiing is dangerous, and whilst Im not for one second condoning the behaviour of the person who caused the accident, accidents do happen.
Huge caveat though - I can see why the person is seriously pee'd off, whilst I wouldn't pursue it if I got injured, if anyone hurt my son whilst skiing through reckless behaviour I would hunt them to the ends of the earth and back!!
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Was the "guilty party" part of the same holiday group then? What did his written report say?
Did the insurance company pay everything in the small print? sounds as if they did
If someone is injured on a ski slope in a way which could turn out to be more serious than at first sight, I suppose one lesson to be learnt is that it's worth calling in piste patrol at the outset and not letting the injured person move too much in case they do more damage. A friend I was with had a bad crash last year
She skied down with her husband, very slowly and I went on ahead to get my car so as she felt so rough. In hindsight we should have insisted on calling piste patrol.
@waitrose, Davidof has already pointed out that the policeman you spoke to was probably just a local bod, not a gendarme properly so-called.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The biggest problem here is @waitrose is drip feeding information.
| Quote: |
| The situation is that the guy who caused the accident was completely unapologetic and probably forgot all about it within 5 minutes except for the brief time he spent writing an accident report later that evening as required by the holiday company. |
WTF? So he didn't disappear but spent time completing an accident report???
@waitrose I suggest that if you want help then give the full circumstances of the incident and the aftermath or otherwise any assistance or information you are given will be useless.
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| waitrose wrote: |
| So whilst it is not financial compensation my friend is after it is more a case of letting the other guy know what he has done and to make him at least have to account for his actions as well as hopefully ski with more care and attention in the future. |
So you're pursuing this because your friend wants a "sorry" and a promise from the other party that they'll be more careful in the future? 
Bluntly, I don't believe you. I think your friend does want financial compensation but lacks the necessary evidence.
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FAQ
, but then my sense of humour is engaged.....
's it brings them out - Nixmap will be next 