 Poster: A snowHead
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We have been skiing for 30 years and usually average 60 days each season on snow, including a lot of skiing in the Durham Alps  and Scottish Alps. We were lucky to get in 90 days skiing last winter, our most ever. 
However, after a November trip to Hintertux and Stubai; and a trip 10 days ago to the 3 Valleys we have concluded that piste skiing has changed dramatically in the past few seasons alone. We like to get about a bit and, until recently, few skiers overtook us on piste.
However, with increasing frequency, we find ourselves being overtaken by skiers rocketing past us, in some cases skiing twice as fast as us. It's fair enough when the said skiers are racers (as seen at Hintertux) but, worryingly, we are increasingly noticing incompetent, technically poor, skiers racing past and skiing recklessly - way beyond their ability level. In every case the crackerjack concerned will be wearing a helmet and, I think, therein lies the problem.
In a couple of cases I was enjoying a seemingly empty piste, at relatively high speed, only to be cut up by an idiot approaching from behind and missing me by a couple of feet when they had a 100 yard wide piste to go at.... And that's despite me frequently checking behind when turning - each of them came out of nowhere!
In relation to this I wish Europe would adopt the American approach of slow skiing zones, where necessary, instead of the current free for all at strategic points like crossroads, intersections, narrow pistes and bottlenecks. And beyond that do what the Americans do and stop reckless skiers, warning them that they will lose their lift tickets.
Do others think the helmet culture has led to piste skiing becoming far more dangerous than ever as a lot of skiers now consider themselves invincible when wearing a helmet? It would be interesting to compare how they ski helmetless...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Uh oh, not ANOTHER Helmet thread..... 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'll throw my grenade and run.....
Did the introduction of airbags in cars make people more reckless drivers?
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Don't think it makes a jot of difference to how someone skis.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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What about ski tech?
Vast improvements over the years has led to better gear.
Is it not better to blame the actual equipment before the accessories?
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| Quote: |
Don't think it makes a jot of difference to how someone skis
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I agree. But I also think there's a case for more "speed control" measures (physical barriers, chicanes etc) approaching busy areas, for example where several chairlifts are clustered together.
Stanton will be along soon to say stop the brutal grooming.
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Personally feel that smart phone apps are much more to blame with people wanting to "prove" their abilities.
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Not sure that this has ever been discussed before.
My own tuppence worth is that it may have altered behaviour a bit . Modern skis and grooming practices are probably more to blame though.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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No change from me, I am more careful on my turns with a helmet on as my periphery vision is not as good.
My red boots made me go faster.
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Go skking in the Dolomites where there are police patrols who will stop you for skiing to fast on blue runs or in a dangerous manner.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Culture is the problem, not helmets. Can't believe helmets were even considered to be the reason tbh!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| ChrisP3 wrote: |
| Personally feel that smart phone apps are much more to blame with people wanting to "prove" their abilities. |
yep!
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| flangesax wrote: |
What about ski tech?
Vast improvements over the years has led to better gear.
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This.
I ski much faster than I used to, and I'm not getting any younger. Technique may have improved a bit but the biggest change is that I can now go like the clappers on a pair of confidence-inspiring 174cm GS skis, as opposed to the 2 metre pommes-frites that I had to haul around years ago.
The fact is that skiing is a lot easier than it used to be.
Here in CH we do have 'slow' pistes, but often they'll be a dead-flat blue run where speed was never an issue anyway.
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You know it makes sense.
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Yes. Some of the willy waving talk on SHs about speeds measured by these apps is indicative of the mentality.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I see a lot more people posing these days. The almost compulsory GoPro means (IME) people are concentrating more on how they look, or think they look to the camera and not paying attention at what is going on around them.
I have my theories on helmets, but think it's more to do with the actual person wearing the helmet than the helmets fault. If you're a dangerous person or a risk taker, you'd have taken the risk even without wearing a lid, so, at least in part, and only applicable to some - Helmets can make dangerous people more dangerous.
personally I think when people buy a lift pass they should be given little leaflet about the ski safety code thing - at least that way the resort is being pro-active in raising awareness. You can't always stop people being dangerous, but assuming that everyone automatically knows the rules of the mountain is wrong.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Bergmeister, so as soon as someone goes faster than you, it's too fast 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Interesting points, all.
However, while I appreciate that ski technology has improved and skiing is easier than it used to be, carving skis have been around for ages and in the pre-helmet world there were far fewer skiers going past us on piste.
Interesting point Legend. But I wonder how the culture has changed so dramatically, if that's the case.
Then again, maybe it's us and we now ski much slower than we used to....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I was in Tux last week. There were a lot of good skiers and a lot of not-very-good skiers, with a very large proportion of both groups wearing helmets and skiing on similar skis. The problem was that many of the not-very-good skiers were travelling at about the same speed as the good skiers. One of the guys I was training with got taken out from behind at high speed, resulting in broken helmet and symptoms of mild concussion so he wasn't able to ski on Friday.
Having said that, I don't think helmets or ski technology have much to do with it. If it has got worse (and I'm not sure it has) I think it's more of an attitudinal change rather than anything else.
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| Bergmeister wrote: |
| we are increasingly noticing incompetent, technically poor, skiers racing past and skiing recklessly - way beyond their ability level. |
I first noticed that particular issue 40 years ago - long before helmets for recreational skiers were even dreamt of!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I don't get why people think straight lining is cool.
Every amazing skier I've ever see (not including park/freeride) has had their knees so bent and really carving down low - why do people think straight lining (tucked or not) is such a good thing?
Put a brick on a ski it'll go straight down the hill, it doesn't mean the brick can ski
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@Mountain Addiction, +1. The skiers I see who are travelling too fast (by which I mean very little control, with not much ability to change their line or speed) might well be on the latest pair of carving race-inspired skis, but they aren't using the performance of the ski to go fast. They are simply using gravity and irresponsibility to charge down the hill.
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| Quote: |
Did the introduction of airbags in cars make people more reckless drivers?
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Yes it did, and seatbelts before that, and ABS brakes. People drive as if their car will never lock the brakes or skid, and as if their airbags render them invincible. It will, and they don't.
Coming back to the original point, I don't blame helmets, as most reckless skiers I see don't wear them (see "it will never happen to me", etc., etc.) And as I have now reached an age (i.e. my boys have left school) where I don't have to ski at peak times any more, I see very little of the above behaviour. Maybe the issue is that ski-ing is now much more widely practised and there are a lot of people who can do it, but don't really know how to do it very well.
At off-peak times, they aren't there in numbers, because only diehards go in January or March. Just a theory anyway.
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@martinm,
Not at all. Of course I'm not saying that. I'm just saying it's happening with alarming regularity and a high number of the protagonists are simply skiing beyond their abilities - many of them skiing recklessly on crowded runs where they have no chance at all of avoiding a collision if someone ahead turns unexpectedly. We've all experienced reckless skiing and I'm just saying that I think it's becoming more common, if not widespread. Nowt to do with spitting my dummy out if someone skis past me and me automatically thinking they are too fast.
I've generally no issue with decent skiers, apart from those who ski too close to others with no room for error at >50mph.
There are some good points on here about what the lift companies/resorts could do to help. However, I sadly think they couldn't care less as long as they coin it in.
More proactive ski patrollers could solve things in a short time.
"Put a brick on a ski it'll go straight down the hill, it doesn't mean the brick can ski" Couldn't agree more!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Quote:
Did the introduction of airbags in cars make people more reckless drivers?
Yes it did, and seatbelts before that, and ABS brakes. People drive as if their car will never lock the brakes or skid, and as if their airbags render them invincible. It will, and they don't.
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Totally agree. There seems to be a formula.
Speed x Perceived danger = adrenalin buzz.
Increase the perceived danger and speed tends to drop, decrease the perceived danger by increasing safety measures and speed tends to increase. Seems to apply to most things.
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I started nearly thirty years ago.
When I started I was sixteen. We skied as quickly as possible, wore bright neon jackets, had bright neon stripes across our faces and skied everywhere in a 90 mph snowplough thinking we looked great.
I don't think anything's changed apart from it's easier to ski on modern skis and most us wear helmets.
As I've got older, I scorn at 16 year olds scorching down the pistes at 90 mph (No longer in a snow ploough as modern skis make it so much quicker to learn parallel turns.
To summarise, nothing's changed - we've just become grumpy old gits.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I think the helmets are a red herring and just coincidence rather than any correlation. Yes, maybe people are faster and more reckless but as well as more of them wearing helmets fewer of them are using long, thin skis/sporting one-piece ski suits/drinking Snowballs/wearing rear-entry ski boots. I doubt the decrease in these or them making a comback would have any significant decrease in speed/reckless behaviour (unless driven by embarrassment/far too many Snowballs).
With the utmost respect after 30 years skiing have you perhaps just started to slow down a bit?
Also do you wear helmets? If yes, it doesn't sound like they've made you faster/more reckless. If no, try it and see if you become faster/more reckless.
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| Bergmeister wrote: |
However, with increasing frequency, we find ourselves being overtaken by skiers rocketing past us, in some cases skiing twice as fast as us. It's fair enough when the said skiers are racers (as seen at Hintertux) but, worryingly, we are increasingly noticing incompetent, technically poor, skiers racing past and skiing recklessly - way beyond their ability level. In every case the crackerjack concerned will be wearing a helmet and, I think, therein lies the problem.
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you've just got old and slow.... 
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
| Put a brick on a ski it'll go straight down the hill, it doesn't mean the brick can ski. |
Did the swear filter change that? 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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People dont take lessons like they used to. They dont have the skills to handle speed but they see others doing it and have a go. Helmets just keep them alive when they invariably fall over.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Where's DG when you need him
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I blame the piste bashers.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Nadenoodlee wrote: |
| People dont take lessons like they used to. They dont have the skills to handle speed but they see others doing it and have a go. Helmets just keep them alive when they invariably fall over. |
True, when we used to run the chalet i heard a lot of people say something along the lines of 'Oh, I've had 3 weeks of lessons over the last 3 years, I can't see what else the instructor is going to teach me. I don't think I'll have lessons this year. I'm advanced now'.
for the record, it took me 3 full seasons skiing before i considered myself an advance skier - people need to stop thinking theyr're experts in everything because they watched it on YouTube
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Bergmeister wrote: |
Interesting points, all.
However, while I appreciate that ski technology has improved and skiing is easier than it used to be, carving skis have been around for ages and in the pre-helmet world there were far fewer skiers going past us on piste.
Interesting point Legend. But I wonder how the culture has changed so dramatically, if that's the case.
Then again, maybe it's us and we now ski much slower than we used to.... |
Personally think the change in culture, such as not caring for those around us, the wanting to appear cool, the requirement to post show off on social media, the not considering the consequences etc etc is far worse than years ago and gets worse as each decade passes. Respect for other humans is so much less than it used to be.
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| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
I started nearly thirty years ago.
When I started I was sixteen. We skied as quickly as possible, wore bright neon jackets, had bright neon stripes across our faces and skied everywhere in a 90 mph snowplough thinking we looked great.
I don't think anything's changed apart from it's easier to ski on modern skis and most us wear helmets.
As I've got older, I scorn at 16 year olds scorching down the pistes at 90 mph (No longer in a snow ploough as modern skis make it so much quicker to learn parallel turns.
To summarise, nothing's changed - we've just become grumpy old gits. |
Great post.
I remember tearing about at high speed when I started, bent over like I was going to the loo, way out of control and jacket flapping like a cape as it hung open so that I could cool my inexperienced and overworked body down. I thought I was a legend. I was just inexperienced and had a lot left to learn (still do). And when I see others doing as I used to, I just give them a wide berth and hope that they'll get better, and realise all of the enjoyment that our hobby can give us.
The slopes are more accessible now than ever, and more crowded than ever. So in absolute numbers there may be more dangerous skiers around. But as a proportion of all skiers, I doubt there's a significant increase. You just notice it more on crowded slopes, I guess.
Stay off-piste, people, for safety reasons. That's my approach.
On another note - I have noticed A LOT more people off piste in difficult conditions, not knowing what they are really doing. And I see a definite correlation - big fat skis make it easier to go and explore, and land yourself in a bit of bother. But within avalanche controlled areas (where you usually see these folk, right by a piste), it's all just a learning experience. Better they try, than not try at all.
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Grumble bumble back in my day, these youngsters, where do they get off, grumble bumble,.......
I was in Val / Tignes last weekend, there were many many many people skiing way beyond their technical ability. Its not helmets, its just gobshites being gobshites. Its for that reason that i spend as much time as possible either on reds or blacks or off piste, and do the same with my kids when in big resorts, as these types are to be mostly found where there is an overabundance of 1st day or 1st week holiday skiiers who just want to go large. Its mostly blokes to be fair to the ladies...
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I think improvements in equipment and more piste bashing work together to make people ski faster.
When I learnt 30 years ago I'd spent a lot of time on the local dry slope and had reached the stem christie/plough swing stage. I went on my first holiday to Tignes and went up the drag lift by the palafour chair to ski down the blue run as a warm up and thought "who put those bumps there". A few years later I went to Meribel and had a bump lesson at the top of Mauduit, this year even late in the day it was a flat, fast piste.
Bumps slow people down and encourage them to learn more so they can ski them better.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
more crowded than ever
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I wonder if that's true. Evidence?
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| tarrantd wrote: |
| I think improvements in equipment and more piste bashing work together to make people ski faster. |
I'll go along with that, I'm skiing much faster now myself due to the change to carving skis which lend themselves to higher speed turns and using more of the piste, trouble is not everyone looks ahead enough and the possibility is there for some serious high-speed tumbles, hence I've worn a helmet now for 15 years and feel vulnerable on-piste without it!
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