Has skiing become more dangerous?

A snowHead

I get the impression that since the introduction of the new generation of carving skis, life on the piste has become decidedly more dangerous. The main reason for that being the speeds that even fairly novice skiers can attain while maintaining at least the appearance of remaining in control. Add to that the fact that with carvers one tends to use the radius of the ski more fully, meaning that skiers use up more room on the piste than they used to. Add Alcohol and you've got an explosive situation on your hands...
This is confirmed by statements from an Austrian surgeon ( I forget the name ) who operates in Innsbruck. He stated that the kind of injuries he sees coming in off the pistes these days resemble motorbike injuries more than the skiing injuries of latter years. And he sees more of them as well.
Any opinions on that? Given that most injuries involve alcohol, should slaes of alcohol be restricted to the Apres rather than the Intra-Ski?

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Viewing this from a 40-year perspective of sliding around mountains, there's no question that the collision risk has increased. The high-speed collisions, which certainly didn't happen in the 'old days', are of particular concern. If people want to enjoy speed they should do it very early in the morning when the pistes are empty. It's a huge buzz to ski deserted mountains.

I regularly implore people to train seriously. A serious two-week application to learning the fundamentals of controlling skis pays dividends and radically reduces the risk of personal injury and injury to others. Work up to an instructor's licence if you really want to make a lifetime investment, but this really requires spending a whole winter in the mountains to get the miles, strength and fitness up.

What an appalling proposition, I know.

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The reason skiing has become more dangerous (and it definately has) is because there are more people on the slopes, in the same way that the increasing number of cars on the roads has made driving more dangerous, of course the fact that people spend less time taking lessons might be a contributing factor as well

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D G Orf, do you (or does anyone else) have any statistics to back up these claims, i.e. it's more dangerous, there are more people (thought there were less in the last couple of years in Europe?), fewer people are properly trained etc?

I'm not really doubting your points, but it would be nice to see some figures.

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Going off on a tangent, I came across the following on the Bupa site, quoting Vanessa Haines, spokesperson for the Ski Club of Great Britain ....

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The Austrians will never ban alcohol on the slopes. That would be commercial suicide . Its all part of the "gemütlichkeit" .

Many skiers/borders (especially from non-german speaking countries) are a liitle naive regarding the allready existing laws & very harsh penalties for skiing the slopes seriously under the influence in Austria.

laundryman, I have no proof whatsoever just anecdotal evidence, however I do agree that given the high speed nature of snowsports we have a still fairly low rate of accidents. I suspect that the ski industry would rather not tell us just how many injuries occur in different locations each season, it would be interesting to find out though

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I was under the i8mpression (although my statistics might be a bit old), that ski-ing is 4 times safer than playing football. However, if you add snowboarding into the statistics the rates change dramatically. Unfortunately (as far as I know) all the statistics are now made up to include both sports.

The nature of ski-ing injuries has changed along with the equipment. Very few people now break their legs or ankles, and there are lots more soft tissue injuries (knees - acl) and dislocations from collisions.

The answer is not in the speed, it may be in the alcohol - remember that 2 small beers at altitude are equivalent to approx 2 big ones at home, but is largely in the "me" culture of today.

Many holiday skiers are not taught how to behave on the pistes as often as they should be. They don't take enough lessons and become "good" skiers - they just fly around thinking they're good because they're going fast.

Fast and steep DO NOT equal good.
CONTROL does NOT equal slow.
CONTROL EQUALS GOOD.

Rant Over!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Laughing

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You know it makes sense.

I don't think that there's anything wrong with the occasional beer at lunch time, and nothing beats a few Vin Chaud sitting out in the snow at the end of a long days skiing.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

"first-to-last skiers out there" > This isnt very a good policy most people are physically done after 4hours of non-stop skiing especially if it is there once a year 1 or 2 week holiday.
A large majority of accidents happen when people bodies become fatiqued .
Best practice, get up early first lifts with the locals , ski hill fast as a previous post mentions. Its amzing how much vertical you can do in 2 hours with empty pistes & empty liftlines. Then relax with the tourists in the liftlines listening to them moaning about the Q's, etc knowing they will never match the vertical you had competed before they reached the lifts Smile

A snowHead

I once saw a program about the influence of alcohol on your ability to drive. Basically they took some men and women out on an airfield, put up a slalom course and told them to drive round the course. All of the participants managed to do it without any problems. Then they each drank a standard measure of vodka (equivalent to one pint of beer), waited twenty minutes and ten drove round the course again. The results were pretty amazing. Although every one of the participants thought that their driving ability was at 100%, every one of them ended up knocking over bollards on the course!
Best of all, alcohol gives you a kind of 'tunnel vision' in that your field of perception becomes narrowed after even small ammounts have been consumed. And if you consider that when skiing on a crowded piste, with people coming at you from left and right, your peripheral vision is more than a little bit important to you. Well what else needs to be said?
The only collsiion I have had in 40+ years of skiing was after a very gemuetliche lunch at the Rodlerhuette in St.Anton. Never even saw the other guy! That's when I decided to restrict my drinking activities to (at the earliest) the Krazy Kanguru on the last run down!

A snowHead

stanton, I always been a 1st to last skier Usually have 2 breaks 1 before lunch and 1 after lunch that way you get the quiet early start and smaller lift queues at lunch time. It does become hard to avoid the mad rush at the end of the day but I just try and not leave to many lift connections to get back. I do however refrain from drinking alcohol during the day. I find it does affect me even a few small ones so I don't drink now. Makes the bar at happy hour even more tempting

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Mikes original hypothesis was that carving skis have made skiing more dangerous. It seems to me that the main impact of carving skis has been to make it acceptable to ski shorter skis. You certainly don't see them being carved very often.

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neilswingler, They are easier to turn, Does this make less experienced skiers over confident or make then safer where they would have been otherwise out of control, because lets face it if they are at the top of a run they usually come down it

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Am I missing a beat here? Surely carving skis do aid speed, by offering the least amount of resistance by virtue of skiing on an edge. Similarly, carving turns for changes in direction surely provide more stable turns, as the edge digs or rather cuts into the slope.

As for avoiding other people, if they chose to occupy the same space that you do at the same time, then a collision is inevitable. The only question is about who has the right to be at that spot at that time. And that is the lesson skiers and boarders need to understand when learning. Maybe the first lesson should be a sort of mountain highway code with some supporting literature. An expence perhaps, but a lesser one than the medical and insurance bills if the problem gets worse.

The "sexing up" of the sport may well now appeal to younger skiers/boarders than has historically been the case, and there have been plenty of discussions that have suggested that this could be where part of the problem lies.

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Carving skis may be something to do with increased ski-ing accident trauma, but I remember when in Colorado 5 years ago, there was the threat hanging over you that if you were spotted ski-ing recklessly in beginners' area, or an area approaching the end of the run you ran the risk of having your lift pass taken away. In this day and age unfortunately self regulation doesn't work, so it is perhaps time to put in place regulations on speed on certain parts of the mountain. I am not an advocate of the "nanny state", but I certainly believe reckless skiers should be held to book if they cause accidents which cause serious personal injury. I think (correct if I'm wrong) but many US resorts don't tolerate reckless skiers, and perhaps European resorts should be made more accountable for the behaviour of their patrons on the slopes also. Difficult balance though Sad

Sadly for me, neither instructor nor coach am I.

IMHPO, carvers haven't made people speed freaks. Carvers have made it easier to learn to ski, initiate turns, etc. So is there a snowboarder like lack of experience on the piste. That is, is it much easier to progress faster without gaining respect for speed, others, gradient... & is may be a factor.

That said, it seems that the common failing of 10 years ago, not being able to complete a turn, still applies. Again IMHO, Carvers aid initialisation, not completion (don't they?), so you might intuit that Self limits still apply ("I'm scared, I'm going too fast") because I haven't completed the turn and can't slow myself down. They don't, per se, make people better skiers, just make one of the hardest elements easier.

From above, do people use more room on the slope than they used to? I reckon they use just as much...

Can I suggest that the problem maybe simply down to a much increased use of the slope, particularly at weekends (blaming cheap airlines)? (Not that I want for an instant to make it more difficult for me to weekend on snow). It seems to me that slopes are way busier than they were, say, 10 years ago. That would seem a much more obvious reason for "motorcycle like" injuries than carving skis.

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easiski, has it right CONTROL is the important factor

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D G Orf, The problem is that there is a difference between thinking you are in control, and being in control. Carvers definitely give you a sense of being in control at speeds where on 'old' skis I would have started to feel uneasy about things. When I bought my first pair of carvers (Voelkl P30) I found myself hammering down the Kandahar in Garmisch at speeds where I would normally wear a helmet. It was easy. On the old skis there always came a point where I felt that things were just getting too fast. On carvers that point comes a lot later. Whether that is due to the shape of the skis or because skis are made of more advanced materials these days I don't know, but I do know that the overall speed on the piste has increased, and that that is causing accidents to be more severe than they, on average, used to be.

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We shouldn't blame the tools. People's attitudes and lack of proper education/coaching/knowledge of piste etiquette, combine to make this sport more dangerous than it already is. Alcohol compounds the problem. The carving ski gives you greater control, not less. It's up to the skier to use this extra manoeuvrability responsibly, surely.

I think that after a couple of weeks sking, the majority of people tend to think that they don't need lessons anymore. People do seem to think that they are invincible. I suppose that carving skis and snowboards both of which allow for fast progress and resulting perhaps in people think that they can tackle a black after not being on snow for 12 months. Its like anything - general public en-mass can lead to more 'mis-haps'.

You know it makes sense.

I would agree with PG, on his last point. A lack of education would appear to be the root cause. I for one, enjoy blasting down the piste, but only from the viewpoint that I've invested quite heavily in lessons and coaching and taking proper note of the "skiers code". That won't protect me from those that believe they're in control enough, when they clearly aren't, but there's not much I can do about that.

I wonder, with the increase in skiing and boarding among the general populace, what the situation would be like had carvers not become the ski of choice, and the old "straights" were the accepted model. With the mindset of some people, carnage I would have thought.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Improved grooming has also tempted people into skiing faster. IMHO, one of the most dangerous places on the mountain nowadays is at the edge of a groomed, tree-lined, blue run.

A snowHead

I would like to see more piste patrollers in areas of bottle-necks or well known black spots who are prepared to have a quiet word with the more reckless element and remove their passes if necessary!

A snowHead

Diarmuid, these are interesting papers, but sadly as out of date as I thought my information was. The first paper refers to many others (which presumably had the real "meat" in them). If I get a chance I'll ask a friend whos a PhD biomechanist and race trainer if he can shed any light on the issue.

Mike Lawrie, It's really very simple - if you're going so fast (even if that's actually very slowly) that you can't take in everything that's going on around you, then you're ski-ing out of control. You should be able to see not just in front but to the side, and you should be able to look a good way ahead and judge where someone will be by the time you get there. Most people look at a point about 2m in front of their skis - what chance do they have of seeing anything?

sarah@alpedhuez, sad, but true. However I blame the ski teachers (myself excluded of course!) Poor tuition, lack of care by the teachers and people don't want to carry on with lessons - they can't see the point. If the beginner is properly brought up he'll go on having lessons for most of his ski-ing life. snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I've never snowboarded drunk, but it sounds like a good way to end up hurting yourself and others. It is about as cool as driving drunk, except without the airbags.

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I will note that in Italy over the last few weeks it was just as well that the usual holiday crowds weren't around. A lot of people skiing way to fast for their abilities on hard packed and icy pistes. I have to imagine that this is partially due to the "pseudo-control" that carvers pretend to impart.

I reckon that, say, 10 years ago, the ski felt less in control and people skied more slowly.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I would say that at speed carvers don't feel any less scary than old straight ones.

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

As a non snowboarder I dont have any real idea about this.....

Can a snowboard turn and swerve as sharply as skis?

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Frosty the Snowman, you're clearly: a. not Italian, b. not there or c. on different skis wink

David Murdoch, I think you're right, but the pistes were not a flat then - wonderful what a few bumps can do for the general speed of the less competent skiers!

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It would be interesting if there were any data to support Mike Lawrie's impression. I thought all the major French resorts sent in data of every accident to a central database. If so, there should be evidence one way or another.
But I am inclined to agree with Mike. For 2 reasons:
1. So many skiers rate their day not by the fun they have had, but by the distance they have travelled, the number of pistes they have "done" and how many Reds and Blacks they have gone down.
2. Resorts are encouraging more and more people to stay by building more and more chalets and hotels. In Olden Days with rickety lifts this would have just meant longer lift queues, but these days of six-person chairs with Warp Drive the queues are being transferred to the piste, which means more crowded pistes. Crowded pistes means accidents.
I reckon the rot started when it was no longer "cool" to go out in multicoloured day-glo suits. Skiing is not about Cool. Skiing is about snowball fights and tree routes and funny hats and laughter. Skiing is about Silly (but not Stupid).

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Has skiing become more dangerous?

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