 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@martinm, group lessons can be useful at any level, providing you end up in the right group. You might want to consider more of a "camp" type setup, with lots of technical development, video feedback, staying with the same people who are on the course so you get the social side, etc.
For your trip to La Plagne why not book a private lesson towards the start of the week and ask the instructor to give you some feedback on why you struggle when conditions get difficult. You're right, it's probably the same "intermediate plateau" that many people will experience, myself included, and getting good lessons is an effective way to take your skiing beyond the limitations that often arise when you ski a lot but don't have much in the way of technical instruction.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'd do as rob@rar says 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@martinm, I'm probably at the same level as you. I've had a couple of Club Med holidays recently which included group lessons and to be honest I felt that I didn't improve much. This may be because of the number in the group or that they were more of a "follow me " type lessons.
I just find private lessons to be expensive. A private lesson sharing with 1 or 2 others of a similar standard would be ideal but that may be difficult if you are travelling on your own.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Take a look at Oxygene's steep & deep group class, getting uncomfortable is one of the best ways to improve. Much cheaper than privates, good fun and great instructors.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I agree with @rob@rar. Give it a day or two to get comfortable and to understand where you are struggling and then book a lesson. My brother did that last year and it made a world of difference to his skiing.
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| henzerani wrote: |
| I agree with @rob@rar. Give it a day or two to get comfortable and to understand where you are struggling and then book a lesson. My brother did that last year and it made a world of difference to his skiing. |
Was that a private lesson? How many hrs did he have?
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I had a 1-2-1 private lesson at the end of the 1st day of a week's holiday last year. It made such a difference having someone just looking at my skiing and helping me with that. I spent the rest of the week trying to put in to practice what I learnt.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I am an old skier (not that good) but I take private lessons with Mrs. Hyst (a technical very good skier, but slow) every year at least once. 2x2 hours (morning)
It works well as a brush upp and we can still improve - mrs. Hyst on the speed and I on technic.
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@martinm, he had a 3 hour private lesson with an English instructor who basically ironed out his bad habits. The main thing was his turns and his body position. He had the same problems as you. Loves going really fast but when it gets steep, tight or icy he slows up, stiffens and hunches over. I'm not saying it cured everything but he was much more fluid afterwards and confident.
I'm biased. I'm a fan of lessons. I took lessons for the first few years then stopped for a bit and started again when I wanted to ski off piste. And what I found from lessons is that if you ski like they tell you when you first learn you can deal with pretty much anything. It's the bad habits that creep in and work well on nice soft reds and end up becoming normal.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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If you are considering group lessons but don't want a whole week, how about just booking in for 2-3 days.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
It's the bad habits that creep in
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This. With bells on! That's why I have lessons.
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Not sure if you've sorted anything out for yourself yet, but we used to have this problem - brain suggesting joining a lesson, but heart knows that it's a waste of a valuable day (especially if it's only a week's trip) if it's a 'follow me' snake down the mountain... That's actually why we founded Ongosa.com where only ski guides and instructors who are 100% recommended by clients AND locals are listed. They list group trips/lessons that have spaces in for solo travellers like yourself. We're really anti massive ski schools, as skiing is such a personal activity so I think we'll probably have something to suit you? Our site has an enquiry messaging system so you can discuss a bit with your instructor before you book to ensure that you know exactly what you're signing up for, and they can make sure the lesson is tailored to what you want.
Hope you have a really lovely trip anyway, our website is www.ongosa.com or for just a bit of inspiration visit our blog at www.ongosa.com/explore. 
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You know it makes sense.
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A private lesson wins hands down for me, every time! Helps eradicate the bad habits we all pick up and improves your technique and confidence. And you get to jump the lift queues!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Agree it's a fairly tragic service to be spamming - worthless.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Sorry to hear this - you can see on the site it's still in Beta version (everyone's got to start somewhere!). I thought it might have been a helpful suggestion. Enjoy La Plagne anyways!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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But you've been rolling since last season. Success of a business model like yours depends on you having a lot of instructors signed up and some sort of benefit to the customer like a price break or last minute booking. AFAICS you haven't got any of this so no-one is going to be an advocate for you.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The main thing group lessons give you over private is that that are cheaper (per-hour) and you don't have to worry about navigating around the mountain. This makes them great for the first week or two but after that I'd go private every time.
Chances are there's only a couple of things wrong with your technique and the instructor will only give you a couple of things to think about - probably keeping your shoulders facing down the mountain and something to get you in to the front of your boots/committing to the edges based on what you've said (had a lesson for much the same issues year before last). Once the instructors seen you ski and told you what to do it's just a matter of doing it - and if you're happy finding your own way around the mountain there's no benefit in paying someone to ski infront of you.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@martinm, I'd definitely recommend a private lesson too. Christoph Lagu at reflex ski school in Plagne Centre is excellent (as are his other instructors).
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| Mjit wrote: |
| The main thing group lessons give you over private is that that are cheaper (per-hour) and you don't have to worry about navigating around the mountain. |
I don't agree with this, either as someone who has had a lot of group lessons over the years, or someone who now offers group and private lessons.
In my experience as a skier and as a ski coach it often takes time to change the fundamentals of skiing, especially if a skier has ingrained habits. The benefit of a week (or a longer term partnership between the skier and instructor) is that you have the time to experiment with different ways of helping the client make the changes they want to make. You have the time to develop all aspects of their skiing so you can make a step-change in their performance rather than "fixing" one or two things. Crucially the client has plenty of time to develop their intrinsic feedback for the changes they are trying to make, so they can feel what they are doing, know when it's not working, and be able to continue improving without needing external feedback on that particular issue. It would be nice if I could have a quick look at a client, spot a couple of key things which will help, tell them what they need to change and maybe offer a drill they can practice and then the client simply does what I've told them to do. I can't think of a single client (or people that I've skied with) where that has been the case. Improving your skiing is a process not an event.
If you have more time working with a good instructor you will be able to make more significant changes to your skiing. Less time with an instructor you will make fewer changes, or the changes will not be as "deep". It's a fairly simply equation in my experience. For me it's group lessons which have had the biggest impact on my skiing.
Generally there is a compromise between teaching and touring the pistes, so if your instructor is navigating you around the ski domain when you actually want to have some technical input you're with the wrong instructor or ski school. In a typical week of coaching that I do I won't tour around the piste map very extensively, other than travelling to pistes that I select because they provide the right terrain for training on. Sometimes that might be more technically focused to help develop skills, other times it might be blasting around to test and consolidate those skills, but the choice of terrain, speed and kinds of turns being made are always carefully chosen to match the goals that we have for that week. Outside of the coaching sessions there is plenty of time for my clients (typically skiing with other people in the group, so there's a great social aspect as well) to explore more of the ski domain, and it's not unknown for us to all meet a the end of the day for sundowner drinks at a favourite mountain restaurant or two  Also, with the group's permission, we might have one session where we do have the aim of touring around the resort a bit more than other days, but this isn't too much of a compromise in terms of development time as the route selected will normally aim to challenge every in the group, building on the stuff they have developed earlier in the week.
As an aside, if an instructor has told you to
| Quote: |
| keeping your shoulders facing down the mountain |
without explaining the situations when this is the right thing to do and the situations when it is absolutely the wrong thing to do, you probably want to find a different instructor.
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@rob@rar, OK I'm biased, but that's a great post and I agree with every word, especially the two words 'sundowner drinks '. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@martinm,
Last time I was in Les Arcs I booked a private lesson with an instructor from New Gen Ski school. It was well worth the money. He tailored the lesson to what I was after and as I only booked 1 gave me a couple of pointers that I was able to work on for the whole week to improve my technique. I would thoroughly recommend him and the new gen ski school and I am sure they would hop over to La Plagne to meet you or if you are close pop over on the gondola to Les Arcs.
I think as @rob@rar, said new gen also do the targeted more " boot camp" style lessons which work on specific areas for intermediates. They had something like this in Meribel so would think the would do similar in Les Arcs/La plagne. I havent tried them so not sure what they are like but they seemed a lot more tailored to correcting specific issues or gaining confidence in certain areas rather than traidtional group lesson approaches. Maybe worth checking out their website or if any others have experience of these types of lessons??
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| Quote: |
Last time I was in Les Arcs I booked a private lesson with an instructor from New Gen Ski school. It was well worth the money. He tailored the lesson to what I was after and as I only booked 1 gave me a couple of pointers that I was able to work on for the whole week to improve my technique. I would thoroughly recommend him and the new gen ski school and I am sure they would hop over to La Plagne to meet you or if you are close pop over on the gondola to Les Arcs.
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Me too (although I had two lessons rather than one, a couple of days apart, which I found worked well), and I agree with all of the above. Also found the lift queue jumping handy at the top of the Aiguille Rouge!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Mjit wrote: |
| The main thing group lessons give you over private is that that are cheaper (per-hour) and you don't have to worry about navigating around the mountain. |
I don't agree with this, either as someone who has had a lot of group lessons over the years, or someone who now offers group and private lessons. |
OK, maybe I just been unlucky and had poor instructors the last couple of times I've done group lessons.
| rob@rar wrote: |
As an aside, if an instructor has told you to
| Quote: |
| keeping your shoulders facing down the mountain |
without explaining the situations when this is the right thing to do and the situations when it is absolutely the wrong thing to do, you probably want to find a different instructor. |
Personally given we are in a thread where the OP has stated [quote]...if it gets icy/steep/narrow I struggle - Always make it down upright but don't enjoy it and it's messy...[quote] and my reply it said that was the advice I was given when having a lesson for the same problem the situation was quite clear? OK, with hindsight perhaps "possibly" would have been a better adverb than "probably" but then at no point was I saying that was what the OP should do, just that it was what the instructor was able to quickely identify and coach me on in a single private lesson with a similar complaint.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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martinm, definitely lessons. I've been skiing rather longer than you but take lessons every year.
(remember, the likes of Novak Djokovic and Andy Murray still have tennis lessons)
Private much better value than Group - go for Group Lessons only if you want the companionship, but you probably won't solve your continued struggle with icy/steep/narrow. Likely you will with a couple of private lessons
As you are in La Plagne, then you want Christophe Lagu. Best there is.
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| Mjit wrote: |
Personally given we are in a thread where the OP has stated
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| ...if it gets icy/steep/narrow I struggle - Always make it down upright but don't enjoy it and it's messy... |
and my reply it said that was the advice I was given when having a lesson for the same problem the situation was quite clear? OK, with hindsight perhaps "possibly" would have been a better adverb than "probably" but then at no point was I saying that was what the OP should do, just that it was what the instructor was able to quickely identify and coach me on in a single private lesson with a similar complaint. |
Yes, that's one of the situations when having good rotary separation would be useful, but I've had so many people relate to me advice they've been given to keep their "shoulders down the valley" that I think it's always worth pointing out that it's not always good advice, certainly not on a "probably" basis. In terms of my point about time, poor rotary control (steering your turns with your shoulders) is a tough bad habit to fix, especially if it has been perfected by lots of practice. Simply telling a client to stop doing a bad habit like swinging their shoulders simply does not work, and often needs time to make improvements.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Mjit wrote: |
| OK, maybe I just been unlucky and had poor instructors the last couple of times I've done group lessons. |
Unfortunately there are too many poor instructors, or certainly instructors doing a poor job. I hope I don't fall in to that category, but I know it's not always easy to guarantee you'll end up with an instructor who will do a decent job for you (regardless of whether that's a private lesson or a group lesson).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@rob@rar,
surely the issue with group lessons is that you cannot get the personalised attention on what each skier needs to work on. Don't you always end up doing some drills which are highly pertinent for some of the group but of marginal benefit to a minority?
Also, for those that learn best by watching / copying you only get a small part of the time closely following the instructor.
And then you just have the lost time associated with grouping up, waiting for the stragglers on the chair, etc.
I like the approach of occasionally spending a couple of hours with an instructor getting one or two things to work on then "purposefully practicing" that during my free skiing.
But then I don't think I've ever needed "to develop all aspects of (my) skiing so you can make a step-change in their performance" - I built a pretty solid basic technique skiing with and copying, taking tips from, pretty decent technical skiers and I've been able to polish and add to that through reading and purposeful practice. In that sense a lesson is another way of getting an idea for something else to refine (but so might a chapter in Ultimate Skiing).
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
surely the issue with group lessons is that you cannot get the personalised attention on what each skier needs to work on
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in big groups, no. But in a group of 6 or less that's certainly possible, IME. In a group where one person can execute perfectly a drill which others are struggling with instructors can usually come up with a tough variation. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| jedster wrote: |
| surely the issue with group lessons is that you cannot get the personalised attention on what each skier needs to work on. Don't you always end up doing some drills which are highly pertinent for some of the group but of marginal benefit to a minority? |
If your group need different drills, surely it's just common sense to set different drills? I differentiate the task for groups I'm teaching whenever necessary, sometimes it's different drills, sometimes it's the same drill but made more or less challenging, sometimes by the speed at which the client skis, etc. The only thing which is difficult to differentiate by is the choice of terrain as everyone needs to be happy to ski the same slopes (especially when doing development work). Often the only differentiation you need is for each client to work on the skill you are developing at their own performance level, and to have a clear idea of what they are working towards.
With feedback isn't it always individual, by definition? I give a lot of feedback, on the hill and back at the hotel through video feedback, although sometimes there's the danger of giving too much feedback, especially to feedback junkies (FX: hangs head in shame). Often there will be times when the client knows what they are working towards and the best thing you can do is keep a close eye on them but get out of their way. They don't need feedback on the quality of every turn they do as it will just get in the way of their improvement.
| jedster wrote: |
Also, for those that learn best by watching / copying you only get a small part of the time closely following the instructor.
And then you just have the lost time associated with grouping up, waiting for the stragglers on the chair, etc. |
I think it's a relatively small number who learn best by watching and copying, not least because once you get to a certain level of skier the changes you need to make are important but subtle (and therefore easy to miss). I'll often demo what we're working on, but the clients will be stationary so no problem with all of them seeing what's going on. I never demo something while my clients are skiing behind me in a ski school snake, and never ski in a ski school snake as we travel around as a group. It's just not necessary. I'll sometimes set up some synchro skiing because it's fun and a great discipline for your skiing, and very occasionally will ask clients to ski close on my tails so I can set or demo a speed and line I want them to ski. Quite often I won't even have my skis on, having parked myself at the side of the piste so I can watch more clearly what each client in my group is doing, video them and give them individual feedback (and task differentiation if necessary) as they lap around. As a learner and as a teacher I think this works extremely effectively.
| jedster wrote: |
| I like the approach of occasionally spending a couple of hours with an instructor getting one or two things to work on then "purposefully practicing" that during my free skiing. |
Yes, that's a good option. I'm not arguing that group lessons are always the best option and that private lessons are always the worst option. I think there are pros and cons to each, and what is best for you will depend very much on what your goals are (and "skiing" terms as well as in "holiday" terms). I simply want to provide an alternative viewpoint to the comments expressed here that private lessons are always best, other than being a bit more expensive per hour of instructor time.
| jedster wrote: |
| But then I don't think I've ever needed "to develop all aspects of (my) skiing so you can make a step-change in their performance" - |
You must be one of the lucky ones, certainly I'd love to develop all aspects of my skiing
| jedster wrote: |
| I built a pretty solid basic technique skiing with and copying, taking tips from, pretty decent technical skiers and I've been able to polish and add to that through reading and purposeful practice. In that sense a lesson is another way of getting an idea for something else to refine (but so might a chapter in Ultimate Skiing). |
You'll not hear me arguing against reading a chapter of "Ultimate Skiing", but it's not a teach yourself to ski book. Some people will get a lot out of a technical reference manual, but others will get very little out of it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@pam w, indeed 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Another point in favour of small group lessons is that you can get a lot out of your colleagues - watching what they're working on makes you more aware of your own skiing. You can rejoice with them when they get it right - and when they keep getting something wrong listen to the feedback they're getting (many of us have variations of the same faults - very little of it is irrelevant and it all helps develop the ability to analyse your own efforts). Skiing just with one technically very able instructor can sometimes be a bit demoralising. Lessons in the right group are a lot of fun - even if it's finding out that everyone is disliking high winds and bad vis just as much as you (whereas instructors can carry on being godlike....).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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At the OP' level I would say it is an ideal time for some fresh ideas.
Having taught in a larger ESI in France and now working alongside two friends with mostly private work I have seen all scenarios. Some people suit group and some private, this of course depends on age, ability(sometimes of the whole group) and goals. I have taught plenty of typical recreational skiers who have a (fairly) decent base technique but suffer on the steeper/icier/narrower pitches. I have had them improve in both group and private. When the group is well matched in terms of level this of course helps hugely.
Within private I use video feedback quite often which really helps. This is something in a group we often dont have time for, unless it is a private group in a full day booking.
I certainly consider value for money when someone books. For example they could use ESI, they will likely get a non native UK speaker but possibly great teacher. And prices are from just €130 for 10 hours of group. Or go private with us starting from €65ph or €400 per day with up to 6 people. I have taught people who I have encouraged to take a group lesson and others in group who I have suggested they take privates.
As a general rule a private will mean greater improvements but that is not every skiers goal.
As the OP I would book a 2 hour private with an instructor who has lots of positive feedback and see what they think. If they are like me they may suggest 2 more sessions during the week spaced out, or take a group with x y or x level with x y or z school in the village. Even a full week of privates, thats the great thing about the job no one person is the same to teach!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
prices are from just €130 for 10 hours of group
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and can be considerably less!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@rob@rar, Are you aware that you appear to have no DNS for insideoutskiing.com? i.e. it no existee!
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@martinm, , that's strange, as it definitely exists here http://www.insideoutskiing.com
Have to confess to not being an IT specialist, so what does having no DNS mean?
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FAQ
