We've recently concluded our second trip to the Alps where we tested our prototypes for a digital ski coach. Back in February, Snowheads introduced us to chamsocial (thank you @Zero_G!) which made our first trip to Chamonix absolutely awesome. Our prototypes were chunky black boxes then, but the weather was great and we met many fantastic volunteers who gave us lots of great feedback and ideas. Thank you Snowheads!
We threw together a short video of our trip to Chamonix:
This time, we went to Hintertux and Passo dello Stelvio with improved (both functionally and aesthetically) prototypes and had a blast testing with ski racers, freestyle skiers, cross-country skiers and instructors. We're still working on churning out decent looking videos, but we're really excited to get back here to give any interested Snowheads an update.
For this trip, we placed a lot of emphasis on the force applied through the ball and heel of the feet; here's a clip of our test with Enrico Nizzi which we found particularly interesting:
At this time, we're trying to figure out what direction we should go with this technology, and it would be great to know if there is any interest from the skiing community.
Let us know what you think, and thank you again!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I like what you're doing and admire the way your taking this forward but I have to admit I think there's only a limited opportunity for this other than in high end / race coaching.
The key thing for me would be that you're measuring the result or output of the skiers dynamics whereas for most of us what's important is the way we create the dynamics with our movements and this is what good ski instructors can see and teach. I also think that most of the time a halfway decent instructor can see the output from the way the skis perform on the snow, so again there's not much need for this here either.
To me the main opportunity would probably be where the skier is making all the right inputs and you really want to try and optimise the impact of these. That seems like a fairly limited opportunity to me but it could be important for some people.
The other thing I wonder about is that this seems to be measuring at the sole only and I wonder if there's a case to be made for also measuring the presuure being applied to the shin cuff at the front of the boot.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@olderscot
First of all, thank you for the response! I am part of the team that is developing this technology, and we really appreciate your feedback.
Considering the information we provided, I tend to agree with your analysis! We believe the measurements we make given in its raw form as shown in the video has much more value to racers than to most other people. Honestly, we too think graphs are not an effective way to present the information about skiing technique.
Actually, we have put in a lot of effort developing software that provides real-time feedback to the skiers, as well as summaries of skiing performance. We've tested these algorithms, and are now in the process of putting them together in an hopefully easy-to-understand app. We're also planning to offer some lessons which can be monitored using our technology. Here are some mockup screens of the app:
During our tests with racers and coaches, we found the response to be very positive, particularly regarding the measurement of force which allows the skiers and coaches to minimise the amount of guesswork and to pick out potential points of improvement.
Regarding shin pressure, we put a lot of thought into that early in the development stage but decided to focus on the sole first. It's definitely been been coming up every now and then so it's certainly something we're looking into!
We are very keen on knowing what the skiing community thinks about this technology, and we'll be very happy to receive any feedback, as well as answer any questions!
... it would be great to know if there is any interest from the skiing community.
As an instructor I'm interested in this as it's always helpful to have more information you can provide to your client. There's a lot you can do using video analysis, instructor observation, helping the client tune in to their intrinsic feedback, but having another source of information which you can share with your client could he helpful. Obviously, when working with recreational skiers there's less need for the highly precise level of detail that you might want to work with when coaching ski racers, but that's not to say that this info has no value for recreational skiers. Coupled with input from an instructor it could be very useful for some aspects of developing skiing skills. For example, I think if used carefully it could be a valuable in terms of setting short-term goals with immediate feedback (e.g., do ten turns and achieve the greatest amount of force before the final third of the turn) - I could see it easily have the addictiveness of online games like Angry Birds, with a straightforward task, precise success criteria and immediate feedback. There are obvious logistical challenges to do with getting the footbed in to the client's boots, especially if the client is using custom footbeds already, making the footbed thin enough to use comfortable (there's not a huge amount of spare volume in my boots as it is), battery life, robustness, etc, etc. Where are you in terms of building final prototypes which address these logistical challenges?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@jamiegrant, @boxuan,
Hey guys, really like what you're doing and the way you've presented it. I love a bit of innovation and entrepreneurship.
I am an average to intermediate once-a-year snowboarder, who's had one proper lesson in the last 16 years. So I don't know whether I'd be your target market (perhaps you're not even going to adapt for snowboarding). But I am generally an early adopter, so have a couple of thoughts I thought you might be interested in.
As someone who regularly looks back up the slope to see my carving lines, I'd be really interested in the technology. If it were just an app that I had to pay a few quid for then game on. I think your issue will the peripherals required as mentioned by @rob@rar. I've paid £200 for a very comfortable pair of boots, I'd be very reluctant to pay for something that could compromise that. Will it be wireless? I think if I had something running up my leg to some kind of box, that would be really off-putting too. All the technology I carry with me when I board is linked via Blutooth.
Anecdotally, it reminds me a bit of this http://www.wilson.com/en-gb/tennis/accessories/sony-smart-tennis-sensor/. I am a keen tennis player, and have the Wilson racket that is compatible with sensor. But the possibility that it will change the weighting in my racket, thus affecting my game, outweighs my desire to be the only person with a smart phone app connected to my tennis racket.
My completely unqualified hunch is that your best route to market is to work with a boot manufacturer. Take the Oakley airwaves as a vaguely related example http://uk.oakley.com/en/mens/goggles/snow-goggles/airwave/product/WGOO7049. That way you can seemlessly intergrate the product into an existing boot and potential consumers can be confident that they're not buying something which will worsen their skiing experience. I can certainly see a high-end Burton boot, with that technology built in, being a succesful product.
Thank you for your response! We're very happy to hear that you're interested. You've raised an extremely good point about setting short-term goals and specific tasks, and that is precisely what we will have as part of our drills system. In fact, we've been looking into gamifying ski drills to make it both more quantifiable and enjoyable, and we intend for them to supplement the rigourous lesson plans we develop with the help of ski coaches.
Comfort has always been a priority for us, and we are extremely focused on minimising the thickness of the device. Our current prototypes are implemented as a two-part system which allowed us to reduce the footbeds/inserts to just under 2mm thick. These inserts go under the boot liner, and we found that it was barely perceptible with most skiers even at a highly competitive level. We intend to reduce this to about 1mm for our next revision, which hopefully will make it even less noticeable. The only issue we've had so far was with a pair of foam injected ski boots which had absolutely no room.
The inserts are connected to a clip-on device (also barely perceptible by the skiers we've tested with) which houses the battery, the processing units and the wireless connectivity components. We were able to get a very good battery life (more than 30 hours of continuous use) with lots of room for improvement. Our current prototype of the clip-on looks like this:
In terms of robustness, we've currently only casually tested our prototypes by repeatedly hitting it (hard) with a makeshift bat. Even as prototypes, they were surprisingly robust!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@FIRSTOFTHEGIANTS
Thank you for your kind comments! We actually have a older app-only version from some years ago before we started developing all the hardware. We also intend to release an updated app-only version for this system, but without the sensor system, the app will only be able to offer comparatively unexciting features.
We are very interested to cater to snowboarders too! Our hardware actually requires very little or no modification for use with snowboarders, but our software (lessons, analyses etc) is currently designed for skiing. Of course, catering to snowboarding and even other sports is certainly part of our plan!
We pay a lot of attention to the comfort of the device, and we are quite confident our devices are comfortable with most ski boots. The system is connected via Bluetooth to the smartphone, but there is a flat cable between the footbed/insert and a boot-mounted unit. For skiers, the insert and cable go under the boot liner so it's not even noticeable. For snowboarding boots without liners, I imagine it will be quite likely to be able to feel the cable, but it shouldn't cause any discomfort. We will definitely be looking to this a bit more. If you have any concerns/thoughts about this, we are more than willing to talk about this and make changes to our devices if necessary!
Having our technology integrated into boots will certainly be ideal from both a technological and comfort standpoint, and we hope we can get to that stage in the future.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@boxuan, cool, the clip on unit looks very nice.
I am far from an expert but I thought all snowboard boots had liners. Certainly all the pairs I have worn have.
You could take quite a different approach to the snowboarding training, for instance you could look at jump landings and stuff, rather than the real intense technique angle of the skiing training.
I will keep an eye out for updates.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@FIRSTOFTHEGIANTS
If all or at least most of snowboarding boots have liners (we thought some of them didn't), it'll be more convenient testing with snowboarders!
Speaking of jumps, we actually have a video clip from our test with Filip Flisar where he makes several small jumps in a small ski cross park. It's very interesting to look at the timing and the pressure applied for the jumps as well as the landings. I'll post a link to it once we get the permission to.
Thank you for your interest! We'll definitely keep you updated.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@boxuan, 99% of snowboard boots on the market have liners. Salomon have their "F-series" line which has no liner and there are a few very low-end / kids boots without liners, but it's definitely not a mainstream thing.
I'm a snowboard instructor (and an engineer!) and would love to have a play around with this. Pressure analysis would be really interesting - high-end snowboarding is all about managing pressure and moving it around between the 4 contact points of the board. These are effectively the heel and toe of the front and back foot, so your system would work really well in rider analysis.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
boxuan wrote:
Our current prototype of the clip-on looks like this:
The back of the boots is not a great location to clip the box. Could easily get smashed if trying to get on an old chairlift, which can smash in to the back of your legs/boots if you mistime getting on the chair. Much better to wear them at the (out)side of the boots or at the front. Also factor in some skiers already have a battery pack clipped to their boots for heated footbeds.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
boxuan wrote:
Comfort has always been a priority for us, and we are extremely focused on minimising the thickness of the device. Our current prototypes are implemented as a two-part system which allowed us to reduce the footbeds/inserts to just under 2mm thick. These inserts go under the boot liner, and we found that it was barely perceptible with most skiers even at a highly competitive level. We intend to reduce this to about 1mm for our next revision, which hopefully will make it even less noticeable. The only issue we've had so far was with a pair of foam injected ski boots which had absolutely no room.
2mm under the liner is probably OK. Think about the logistics of swapping the system from person to person on the hill. I can't see an instructor fitting a whole group of clients with something like this, but having one or two sets which can be swapped at coffee break from one client to another would mean that you can use the system with a group of, say, eight clients if you are teaching a week long clinic.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Out of interest, what do you do about sizing these sensors. If they're going to be swapped around in lessons is it a one size fits all thing? or else what's Rob supposed to say to someone who's feet are too large or too small for the sensor he has? And if they're all small wouldn't that create a potential problem of them slipping in a large boot?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@stevomcd
That's great! It seems there's a fair bit of interest from snowboarders as well, we'll definitely start including snowboarding in our tests. Thank you for your feedback! By the way, as an instructor and engineer, what do you think of our data representation (graphs in the video, and bars in the mockups)?
@rob@rar
The mounting point of the clip-on device doesn't actually matter! We placed them at the back when testing with racing skiers who frequently smashed into gates with the front of their boots, but ultimately the user can choose any comfortable/convenient spot to mount it.
Our current footbeds/inserts only need to be slipped into the boots under the liner, so the process is relatively simple. It is, as one would expect, a little more difficult with extremely stiff boots. In the ideal situation, the user will only have to install the device once for the entire lifetime of the boot, or the duration of the clinic. We're very interested in getting instructors to use our technology in their lessons and coaching. What do you think you (or any instructor) will need for a typical season of instruction?
@olderscot
Our plan is to have a range of sizes of the footbeds/inserts to fit as many skiers as possible. This is another advantage of the two-part system; an instructor can have many more inserts than the clip-on devices!
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@boxuan, I agree with you that graphs aren't particularly useful here.
I think for a snowboarder, what would be useful would be to have a series of board-shapes with "colour-temperature" shading showing pressure at key points around the turn or to have just one board shape that the user could drag around the turn to show the pressure changes.
For a skier, the left-foot / right-foot dual lines works quite well. For a snowboarder, I think a similar line with fore-aft pressures would be useful, but you really need to show the pressure variation across the two edges as well.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@stevomcd, imagine the thousands of self-taught, stubborn snowboarders (like me) who will quickly discover just how bad their technique is!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@stevomcd, that's what we think too. We imagine the graphs being useful for very detailed analysis of skiing technique, but most people are unlikely to use this in-between runs. We actually do have heat map representations of the pressure distribution! After installing the footbeds/inserts in our testers' boots for the first time, we use it as a quick demonstration of what our system can measure. Here's a short clip taken off our beta app: http://youtube.com/v/oU_23QUxl0Q
We think the raw information might still be a bit much to take in, which is why we are working on algorithms to analyse all the information, summarise it and provide suggestions of what it means in terms of technique. We've tested the basic features, like encouraging learners to put their weight forward when we detect them leaning too far backwards.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
"We've tested the basic features, like encouraging learners to put their weight forward when we detect them leaning too far backwards."
@boxuan, could utilise Apple watch (or Android equivalent) to give you basic warnings using the haptic responses. That would be very cool!
@FIRSTOFTHEGIANTS, that's an awesome idea! We happen to have an Apple Watch around, we'll have it implemented and tested soon!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
various on the wrist devices vibrate to various things, you'd need to be able to differentiate between my bad skiing, and a message from the wife, both equally important enough not to ignore
@Little Martin, true! We'll probably use different vibration sequences, so it'll be like getting directions as implemented by Apple. We've actually also tested real-time audio feedback, might be useful if you happen to have earphones on!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Thank you for all the responses so far! If anyone's interested in jump analysis, here's as short clip of our test with ski cross world champion Filip Flisar:
Hey guys, we've just made a new demo of our technology! The video clip shows Filip Flisar making a wide turn and a few small jumps, and the lower half of the screen illustrates his application of force relative to the line he chose:
They talk about some issues people have raised, particularly regarding comfort with using the inserts. Take a look and let us know what you think!
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
It's been a while, but this Carv thing is up on Kickstarter so it did work after all
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Looks good and is good. A very sophisticated tool.
I'd say 99% of all skiers could probably improve with good instruction without this kit. However, as the last athlete say's, it's absolute proof beyond any feeling. Qualitative and Quantitative but for full analysis, i'd have to somehow include at the minimum a side and front or rear view synced.
Probably for high end training only?
Maybe not. With the right App and feedback responses directly to the skier in 'real time' or recording, then this could be available to all at different price points for buying or hiring for training, for safety, recording all sorts of stuff. Aligning it to smart phones, possibilities are vast... having read through the above posts just now, i appear to be way 'behind the curve'
As an individual who's +50 y/o now, i can list many many accidents that have made me a little asymmetrical in ankles, knees, hips, spine. Without any sliding on slippery surface complications, just standing vertical on solid ground, going through turn and pressure build-up movement patterns slowly, my feet give different pressure feedback and i can see my L/R body shape curve has subtle differences too. My shoes have different wear patterns underfoot and i have more calluses on my L foot than R by far even though my R foot 'twists' in it's ground strike/contact whereas my L foot/leg is neutral throughout. So, throughout the kinematic chain of movement, there's a few oddities going on that i'm aware on and work on even before thinking about skiing... but, still i'm interested...
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
having read through the above posts just now, i appear to be way 'behind the curve' 
but, still i'm interested... 
