Category IIIb is currently the most advanced automated landing system in operation anywhere in the world, and requires only 150 feet / 46m of visible range on the runway.
So often, main airports like Geneva and Zurich will have CAT IIIb, and your plane will be able to land even in very bad fog/visibility. Whilst airports like Chambray and Innsbruck will have less advanced landing categories, and your plane may get diverted — and if you're not careful you end-up on a coach for 5 hours.
Note: The plane has to equipped with at least CAT IIIb equipment I think. Plus I'm not a pilot or connected to aviation, so do please correct me if I've gone wrong somewhere!
Also please add any new or better info you have. I can't seem to find a database of which airports have which systems; nor which aircraft have which systems.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I think you are being a bit over optimistic for Geneva as aircraft movements have to be reduced from 40 to around 15 per hour in thick fog. Geneva having probably the worst fog record of the western Alpine airports. The town spends most of the winter shrouded in pea-soupers whereas you go over the Mont du Sion and it can be brilliant sunshine.
So fog at Geneva can be a total fustercluck given the number of flights. Lyon seems better as it is high up out of the Rhone valley. Chambery suffers more from windshear and this seems to be the major cause of diversions although fog can roll in of the Lac du Bourget. Grenoble is in the Terres-Froides and suffers from snow and ice.
Annecy might be a good airport to use for ski charters.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@davidof, Thanks! That is so helpful. Are you in aviation? Or just fly loads?
Sometimes I'm torn between flying to Geneva or Chambray for Meribel. Same goes for Zurich or Innsbruck for St. Anton etc. Zurich is good as I can fly from London City Airport which fab.
But as they say — these are 1st world problems!
@musher, Very grateful — I'll take a look.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Part of the problem is safely handling aircraft movement on the airfield to and from runways.
Well, that puts skiing in a whiteout in to an altogether less scary category
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
PeDaSp wrote:
@davidof, Thanks! That is so helpful. Are you in aviation? Or just fly loads?
Neither, I was in transport for a while so experienced the Lyon/Chambery/Geneva triangle at its worst. I worked for a number of years at Geneva airport too but nothing to do with flying. It is true that Chambery gave the most problems at the time but not from fog but other weather.
None is perfect from a skier's viewpoint and sometimes people were even flown out of Turin. If you want any detailed info I have a couple of BA pilots for neighbours who know the local airports well. There is a second private/military airport at Chambery which can land troop transports and a second airport at Grenoble right by the city. I've also seen big planes come in there but my pilot friends say they wouldn't want to land an airbus. Would be very convenient for skiers though. If you don't mind flying a C160 Grenoble City (le Versoud) would be ok though.
Nearly landed at innsbruck a few years ago... Pilot aborted just before the wheels touched.. Acceleration immense to get us back in the air...
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
If you think Geneva slows down in fog, you should see it with a few inches of snow.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
We've had aborted landings at Chambrey, plane in front hadn't cleared runway, Innsbruck for the same, and Manchester due to high winds, we were what looked to be less than 100ft from touching down when nose went up with engines on full throttle, all were a bit unsettling but the pilots were doing what their trained for, all gave a very calming explanation on what had happened.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
PeDaSp wrote:
Note: The plane has to equipped with at least CAT IIIb equipment I think. Plus I'm not a pilot or connected to aviation, so do please correct me if I've gone wrong somewhere!
It is not just the airport and aircraft that have to be CAT IIIb certified the crew need to be 'current' too. That means they need to have passed a checkride/simulator check in previous XX months.
When airports are on LVP (low visibility procedures) there are strict rules on movements around the airfield. Aircraft and vehicles are restricted from moving around in case they 'bend' the ILS beam. If you are observant you may notice the signs on taxiways saying CATII/III Hold. These are normally further away from the runway and are used during LVPs.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Interesting to read a "pilot's eye" view of landing/takeoff from Innsbruck in this thread from a couple of years ago
Interesting that sometimes in bad weather they need to take off with less fuel (so the plane's light enough in case of engine failure, to climb on one engine) to ensure that they make sure all the Pax's bags are carried, and land at Munich for a top up
Quote:
With a limited permitted weight we cannot generally offload baggage (as there are rarely any later flights that day to repatriate said bags, it's not like Geneva with lots of flights per day!), which leaves us only one option - take less fuel and have to stop on the way home to refuel
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
At one point my job meant I flew occasionally out of St Vincent. Geography dictated that take off was always in the same direction. Normally the winds were OK for that but when they had tail winds and lots of passengers they ditched the baggage.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
pam w wrote:
If you think Geneva slows down in fog, you should see it with a few inches of snow.
we flew into Geneva on one of the big snow fridays last year , and we had a small delay as they had shut for an hour earlier in the evening, but they had had eight inches of snow and had cleared in . The pilot said they had a heated runway, but I was never sure if that was a joke or serious comment.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I have been many times into and out of Inns and MUC. Maybe 10 times a year. I think I have been unlucky but for me INN averages 2x diversions a year. The aborted landings tend to be summer due to wind shift, whereas in winter if the vis is poor you just circle a bit and if it does not improve you divert to MUC.
I was on quite a famous BA flight to INN last year. We had 2 aborted landings, having got quite close to the ground. A friend was watching from the airport restaurant and she said it was scary even watching from the ground. The pilot then told us there was also a de-icing issue and we had to divert to Zurich (only ever been diverted to MUC before). We waited on the ground at Zurich for 3 hours whilst they bodged the de-icing system. Then we had another go at MUC without success. A Monarch flight in front of us then had a go and reported significant turbulence, which I believe means not much fun at all. So we went to MUC. The BA pilot was excellent.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
achilles wrote:
Part of the problem is safely handling aircraft movement on the airfield to and from runways.
I landed in GVA a couple of seasons ago, glad the captain was a local as even when the gangway was connected, I still couldn't see the terminal building from my window seat
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
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