 Poster: A snowHead
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| SkiPresto wrote: |
This is what the nay-sayers to the so-called "Speed-Test" don't 'get'. It's not about more speed. It's about the correct speed for the conditions and the amount of edge inclination. Skiers who have poor technique can't control the speed without exhausting their physical strength owing to having to soak up the big forces late-on in their heavily-edged phase-3 of their turn, whereas expert skiers are off the edge by then and don't take nearly so much force in phase-3.
The references to body Inclination/ Angulation earlier reinforces what we have already learned that Body Inclination is "stance of strength", but it's not agile. So we compromise by angulating at the various joints - to get the job done in time. |
Nope you have it wrong re the nay-sayers. The speed test as it stands is irrelevant to teaching most punter skiers, it comes more into it's own as you instruct/coach better skiers. What you are saying could be assessed more effectively from just observing the skier through gates or even free skiing, there is no need for a time limit if we are talking technique. As there is no need for a time limit to assess technique why do they put 100% emphasis on a time limit rather than 100% emphasis on technique ? Is there an ulterior motive.
If they balanced time through gates with technique it would be more appropriate than what they have now for a L2/L3 BASI who is not likely in the case of a L2 to be teaching advanced and above skiers on a regular basis. But a this time and below you pass and 0.001 second above and you fail shows just how pathetic it is that skier who just failed may have far better technique but not be as aggressive as someone who just passed. A balance between time and technique would see the more aggressive skier fail and need to go and work on their technique and the skier with better technique pass.
You could award points for the time ( look at events like decathlon for examples) and points for technique, you need to gain a certain number of points to pass not a set time.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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speed098, Speed in the Eurotest comes from good technique. Your strawman of someone really good but slow doesn't exist.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rjs wrote: |
| speed098 Your strawman of someone really good but slow doesn't exist. |
Yes it does; there are plenty of really good skiers who don't like to ski fast, whether through fear of injury or whatever.
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@rjs, Good technique is one small part of speed in an ET. As you know speed comes from mainly from good tactics gained through experience, physical fitness, well maintained and selected equipment plus the psychological willingness to put it all on the line, risking injury and leaving it all on the hill..
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rjs wrote: |
| speed098, Speed in the Eurotest comes from good technique. Your strawman of someone really good but slow doesn't exist. |
Maybe not among people who love racing but plenty among very good skiers who don't get their kicks that way and are abundantly clear on the risk/reward of pushing it.
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Whatever. I get to watch lots of people doing Eurotest training each year, I have never seen one and thought "that is pretty", I just see the technical faults that are slowing them down.
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@rjs, which makes perfect sense, but is quite different to the statement above.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| @rjs, which makes perfect sense, but is quite different to the statement above. |
It is a response to the original suggestion, I can't think of anything that I have seen that would qualify for "style points".
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Speed098 wrote this:
| Quote: |
...
If they balanced time through gates with technique it would be more appropriate than what they have now for a L2/L3 BASI who is not likely in the case of a L2 to be teaching advanced and above skiers on a regular basis. But a this time and below you pass and 0.001 second above and you fail shows just how pathetic it is that skier who just failed may have far better technique but not be as aggressive as someone who just passed. A balance between time and technique would see the more aggressive skier fail and need to go and work on their technique and the skier with better technique pass. ... |
You are asking for some sort of style points award - a bit like ice dancing competitions perhaps?
The whole benefit of the Eurotest is that it takes the qualitative judgement out of the equation. You either make the time or you don't. But you need to be skiing under control and pass the time set.
The thing people don't seem to get is that similarly with the 400m athletics race, you can't just go fast and win. Try to do that and you'll blow out.
In GS The faster you go - the forces increase by the square of velocity, so it gets impossibly difficult if you are not in control.
So you need to control the speed and the line. For each turn there is a maximum speed for the edge angle you choose - or you slip out.
You can call it a speed test, but it isn't.
It's a time trial. It's a test of skiing skills. But it's ruthlessly objective.
So you need to control the speed to make the best line possible without blowing out or without going wide or low.
Aggressive doesn't pass it.
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| Quote: |
Speed098 wrote this:
Quote:
...
If they balanced time through gates with technique it would be more appropriate than what they have now for a L2/L3 BASI who is not likely in the case of a L2 to be teaching advanced and above skiers on a regular basis. But a this time and below you pass and 0.001 second above and you fail shows just how pathetic it is that skier who just failed may have far better technique but not be as aggressive as someone who just passed. A balance between time and technique would see the more aggressive skier fail and need to go and work on their technique and the skier with better technique pass. ...
You are asking for some sort of style points award - a bit like ice dancing competitions perhaps?
The whole benefit of the Eurotest is that it takes the qualitative judgement out of the equation. You either make the time or you don't. But you need to be skiing under control and pass the time set.
The thing people don't seem to get is that similarly with the 400m athletics race, you can't just go fast and win. Try to do that and you'll blow out.
In GS The faster you go - the forces increase by the square of velocity, so it gets impossibly difficult if you are not in control.
So you need to control the speed and the line. For each turn there is a maximum speed for the edge angle you choose - or you slip out.
You can call it a speed test, but it isn't.
It's a time trial. It's a test of skiing skills. But it's ruthlessly objective.
So you need to control the speed to make the best line possible without blowing out or without going wide or low.
Aggressive doesn't pass it.
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Have you passed the eurotest @SkiPresto ?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@geo
No, I have not passed the Eurotest.
Not Yet!
Have you?
Not many over 30's have passed it.
However it is the thing that keeps me interested in skiing, and trying to improve.
I've just finished a training session in the pool, and tomorrow it's a weights session. Next month its out to the Alps.
Interesting you should ask though. You could divide the BASI world into two groups. Those who've passed and those who haven't.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| SkiPresto wrote: |
| Interesting you should ask though. You could divide the BASI world into two groups. Those who've passed and those who haven't. |
Then we have a vote on if it should be required or not, I'm pretty sure I know which group would win that vote 
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^Vote yourself a Eurotest 😊
Unfortunately, if you have the brass neck to ask for payment for teaching what you know about control of speed and line in skiing, you need to show that you are among the best in the business at doing it.
You can only do what you know.
The alternative is poor quality and a race to the bottom not in time but in wages.
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You know it makes sense.
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yup BASI with 6000 members and typically 20-30 of those pass the ET each year. should only those people be allowed to teach kids and families how to ski on holiday?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| SkiPresto wrote: |
The alternative is poor quality and a race to the bottom not in time but in wages. |
There is poor or no correlation here. Look at the US - wages suck but there are plenty of good quality and fit for purpose instructors who are in it for the love of the sport/lifestyle/hobby reasons and who would never get near a race course. Of course the decision of how qualified they are to teach is taken by their employer not some national organisation.
If anyone did a realistic assessment of instructor personal skills vs that required in the market I suspect that solid L2 passes would suffice for 80%+ of the market. The rest has always been ego driven horsepoop
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Poster: A snowHead
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| SkiPresto wrote: |
| The alternative is poor quality ... |
Are you saying that a ET pass is a guarantee of great ski instruction that the client is happy with, and without a ET pass you can't provide great instruction and the client will not be happy with the service they provide?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| SkiPresto wrote: |
| The alternative is poor quality ... |
Are you saying that a ET pass is a guarantee of great ski instruction that the client is happy with, and without a ET pass you can't provide great instruction and the client will not be happy with the service they provide? |
No, I'm not saying that an ET pass makes you all that much better at teaching, but you will certainly know your stuff based on bitter experience, and you will be dedicated to your job, having committed many tens of thousands of £ to the achievement.
I'm saying it selects for high skill, and as a by-product - the knowledge and dedication required to achieve that. Obviously, you need to be a top teacher too. But the difference will be in the quality of the technical demos and that is something clients wordlessly absorb.
I'm saying the high ET technical standards makes for a better system.
If there was no Eurotest selection then about 2 million French people would be flooding the ski-school teacher jobs. There would be no high technical bar, and the ski teacher would perhaps resemble in time, a Butlin's holiday camp redcoat.
Happy Clients? Clients take it on trust that the instructor is teaching them high-quality, transferrable skills. They'll think it's great if they like the teacher. How would they know otherwise?
I'm not that impressed with people who can't ski very well claiming to be wonderful teachers. They have the vanity to believe that the customers listen and do.
No they don't, they watch and copy.
Next, people will be saying "Why do we need to ski bumps?". "Our 'punters' can't learn bumps- it's too difficult". Does that mean bumps shouldn't be assessed in the BASI Levels?
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Fri 2-10-15 20:09; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| SkiPresto wrote: |
I'm saying it selects for high skill, and as a by-product - the knowledge and dedication required to achieve that. Obviously, you need to be a top teacher too. But the difference will be in the quality of the technical demos and that is something clients wordlessly absorb.
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You are the national director of the ESF circa 1970 and I claim my cinquante francs!
Really? I'm a great believer in the learn by finding someone good and try to copy school of skiing, but I'm first to admit that doesn't work for everyone. You claim that everyone expects top professionals but actually offer them a choice priced appropriately and see what they really want when there is a true market choice. Etienne Eurotest at 50 euro/hr or Larry L2 at 30 euro/hr. Measure their overall satisfaction thereafter.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Dave of the Marmottes,
Quote
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| "You are the national director of the ESF circa 1970 and I claim my cinquante francs!" |
Brilliant!  The cheque is in the post!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@SkiPresto, not much I agree with in your last post, including the final paragraph. I think it's a grave mistake to assume clients are stupid and aren't capable of judging what they consider to be good quality ski instruction.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Dave of the Marmottes
You say
| Quote: |
| "You claim that everyone expects top professionals but actually offer them a choice priced appropriately and see what they really want when there is a true market choice. Etienne Eurotest at 50 euro/hr or Larry L2 at 30 euro/hr. Measure their overall satisfaction thereafter." |
The place I used to work (EV2 at Val d'Isere and Oxygene at La Plagne) charged the client the same whether the client got me as a stagiaire or got one of the Full Diploms.
I got Euros 28 per hour and the Diploms got Euros 38.00
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thats a great system now isn't it... the client doesn't know what they are getting and the profit pool goes up for the full certs...
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Yeah but did the clients complain when they'd only got a stagiaire for their money? I suspect not and that's the rank hypocrisy in the whole system - the French model works precisely because there are legions of stagiaires taking up the slack despite the fact they are by definition "unsafe" and not technically proficient.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| @SkiPresto, not much I agree with in your last post, including the final paragraph. . |
Oh, so what did you agree with then?
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| I think it's a grave mistake to assume clients are stupid and aren't capable of judging what they consider to be good quality ski instruction |
You are adding your own spin there. Nobody's making a "mistake". Nobody's "assuming clients are stupid". That's your logic. Not Mine. Clients aren't "stupid" if they believe inaccurate nonsense from the teacher. I've seen some awful teachers teaching all sorts of made-up nonsense. The clients had no reason to doubt it. He was their hero.
Anyway:-
How about returning to the original topic?
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Fri 2-10-15 20:16; edited 1 time in total
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| SkiPresto wrote: |
| How about returning to the original topic? |
Ski sidecut is very important, and in my teaching I work hard to help my clients use the shape of the ski all the way around the turn although, (I suspect like everyone else in this thread) there is no way that I would get in to any of the theory that has been explored here.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| Yeah but did the clients complain when they'd only got a stagiaire for their money? I suspect not and that's the rank hypocrisy in the whole system - the French model works precisely because there are legions of stagiaires taking up the slack despite the fact they are by definition "unsafe" and not technically proficient. |
Insult, Mock. I've heard it all from better than you lot!
My policy was to teach them the same way as we were being taught by BASI. I had the Level 4 Teaching module pass at the time, so I was on the money there. I was also being coached and mentored by the ski school and TDC BASI trainers. Also I had 20 years experience of my own. I treated my class customers as I would have treated potential world-cup racers of the future, or future instructors themselves.
The full-cert French instructors had their own regular rich French clients and just led them around the place. Any teaching they did was of the "follow-me" type that works if the same client turns up every week.
British holiday-makers like to be taught real skiing - not "Holiday Punter Skiing" (Once the difference is explained to them).
I think the clients got a full-on product from me and delivered to a top level of professionalism.
Now, was someone wanting to inform me about some kind of "Side Cut Radius" computer algorithm?
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Fri 2-10-15 18:12; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Not mocking you - mocking the ludicrous nature of the system and the contradictions inherent in some of the arguments the vested interests have had to employ in preserving nice high barriers to competition. My perception is that British holiday makers like to be taught real skiing by someone who can do it appropriately, is fun and challenges them just enough without spoiling the fun aspect. I have an extremely low level of belief that that is a causal relationship with a Eurotest pass nor extreme demostrations of side cut use nor physics lecturing skills.
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| Quote: |
@geo
No, I have not passed the Eurotest.
Not Yet!
Have you?
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Nope
Never tried it.
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You know it makes sense.
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| SkiPresto wrote: |
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| Yeah but did the clients complain when they'd only got a stagiaire for their money? I suspect not and that's the rank hypocrisy in the whole system - the French model works precisely because there are legions of stagiaires taking up the slack despite the fact they are by definition "unsafe" and not technically proficient. |
Insult, Mock. I've heard it all from better than you lot!
My policy was to teach them the same way as we were being taught by BASI. I had the Level 4 Teaching module pass at the time, so I was on the money there. I was also being coached and mentored by the ski school and TDC BASI trainers. Also I had 20 years experience of my own. I treated my class customers as I would have treated potential world-cup racers of the future, or future instructors themselves.
The full-cert French instructors had their own regular rich French clients and just led them around the place. Any teaching they did was of the "follow-me" type that works if the same client turns up every week.
British holiday-makers like to be taught real skiing - not "Holiday Punter Skiing" (Once the difference is explained to them).
I think the clients got a full-on product from me and delivered to a top level of professionalism.
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SO you've literally just proved Dave's point then: despite not having passed there Eurotest and thus inherently deemed not 'safe enough' to be a full instructor by the French, you provide a better lesson and experience for your clients than many who have passed it.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Yes, but the French diploms could really ski.
Much better at the top end of the spectrum than I could.
I learned a helluva lot from them.
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FAQ
