 Poster: A snowHead
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Sorry I have deleted my original post which was about the percentage of search queries which people put in the Google.
See below
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 26-06-15 15:24; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Either that or it is biting less and more people are trying to decide if they can afford to ski...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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We didn't head to the snow this season having gone to Australia for 3 weeks instead, but in looking for next year's snow fix, I would say that prices have increased. Certainly the place we stayed at last time is more expensive for the same week (via TO I add, not DIY).
This could also be a reason - nobody's particularly worse off, but increases in price = people looking to save money.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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The media keeps trying to tell us that the recession is over.
However, I suspect this thread is an opportunity for the OP (a small TO I believe) to ply her/his trade.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Randomsabreur wrote: |
| Either that or it is biting less and more people are trying to decide if they can afford to ski... |
Very true - need to look at the overall figures of people searching for ski holidays. If the overall numbers have gone up, then this could be a positive.
Very dangerous to take one stat and come to a conclusion, easy to come to the wrong conclusion this way - need much more information to make sure you get the correct viewpoint.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
The media keeps trying to tell us that the recession is over.
However, I suspect this thread is an opportunity for the OP (a small TO I believe) to ply her/his trade. |
I thought it would be an interesting topic for discussion but, as always, if you work for a tour operator whatever you post is seen as some form of marketing.
It wasn’t, but just so there can be no doubt it has been deleted.
This leads to another question. As I work for a medium sized tour operator which, amongst our other trips, runs ski holidays, is there anything I can post that would be seen simply in the spirit in which it was intended, that of just a bit of idle chat.
Enough people who post regularly on here know me personally and they will confirm that I don’t own the company where I work, I am not on commission, in fact there is no benefit to me what-so-ever in posting other than to talk about a topic of mutual interest; it’s mid summer and our office is rather quite now.
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@Lisa_BrentaSki, personally I didn't it as a promotion for your own company at all, so it's a shame that you deleted the stats just because of one person's comment.
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LoL, If anything it was the opposite of a promotion, not sure what you'd call that. It showed that people were landing on our site by searching for terms which we wouldn't really want to associated with.
Each year I ski with many, many people on this site so I know that that the vast majority of people on here are really nice so I don't take it personally. But I don't want to upset anyone so I deleted it. O, when I say I "ski" what I mean is that I fall over lots with a bit of sliding around in between  One day I'll actually be as good at skiing as I think I am.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
The media keeps trying to tell us that the recession is over.
However, I suspect this thread is an opportunity for the OP (a small TO I believe) to ply her/his trade. |
Cynical me did wonder.
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| Lisa_BrentaSki wrote: |
| ......This leads to another question. As I work for a medium sized tour operator which, amongst our other trips, runs ski holidays, is there anything I can post that would be seen simply in the spirit in which it was intended, that of just a bit of idle chat..... |
That's a fair question. There are snowheads with recognised trade connections, who none the less do have the community's trust. Spyderjon and CEM spring instantly to mind.They have participated in general discussions, and have also given expert advice which is clearly impartial - or offered there services when very directly relevant. I think your response here has been credible - and as I am a fairly cynical bloke, that will probably be the thoughts of others, too. Clearly if you are trade-related, there will be some scepticism as to the motive of early posts - there have been many in the past who have simply tried to take blatant commercial advantage of the community. But if you continue to want to muck in with us - and where relevant share your expertise, I'm sure you'll get along fine.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Lisa_BrentaSki wrote: |
| This leads to another question. As I work for a medium sized tour operator which, amongst our other trips, runs ski holidays, is there anything I can post that would be seen simply in the spirit in which it was intended, that of just a bit of idle chat. |
I really wouldn't worry about it. Deleting the original post was a disproportionate response IMO. This isn't Facebook, there will be banter, if you don't like that then really you are posting in the wrong place.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Lisa_BrentaSki, it is a fine line but also very blurry.......... i won't start any topics that may be interpreted as promoting my company but i will respond and contribute to others topics quite happily.
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| Lisa_BrentaSki wrote: |
Sorry I have deleted my original post which was about the percentage of search queries which people put in the Google.
See below |
Shame I thought it was an interesting topic high was why I came back to read more on the discussion.
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You know it makes sense.
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What you'd posted was fine.
Even though as I'd approached the thread cynically hoping for a treatise on SEO or even a "you know what else is cheap - kitchens" bait and switch I was a bit disappointed that there wasn't an opportunity to be unwittily sarcastic about a spammer.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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As I've just come across this now, it's all a bit meaningless without the original post... 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Basically Google June 2014 ski holiday related search terms topped by "Ski holidays 2015"
June 2015 topped by "cheap ski holidays"
Does this mean anything?
Answer not really other than that some people think putting cheap into google has any influence on the price of the product they end up with.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I tend to agree.
While I (and I'm sure we all) appreciate your trying to be sensitive to the whims and wishes of the community, I think your response may have been a wee bit over-sensitive in consideration of just one cynical/tongue-in-cheek response, esp. given there were 3 others that responded at face value.
I thought it was an interesting post and a good start to a conversation.
Meanwhile, pop a comment in your sigline (User Facilities (top left) => Forum profile) just mentioning who you work for. That way, you declare your area of expertise and no-one will feel the need to 'out' you.
Why not reinstate your post?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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How exactly does this work @Lisa_BrentaSki? Are these click throughs to your website? Is there something on your website that is putting you higher up the Google rankings for "cheap (ski holidays)" this year compared to past which is why more people are clicking through?
Just wondering/interested how it works as well as wondering whether there are genuinely more people searching for cheap ski holidays.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Sorry to be so cynical. I guess I find the notion of a cheap skiing holiday to be a bit of an oxymoron. Sure there are cheaper ways of going skiing, but in comparison with a week in a caravan in Skegvegas, it's not a cheap holiday.
And for the record, I don't have an issue with ski-related businesses plying their trade on here. But I don't want to buy a kitchen 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I'd like to hear alot more from folks from within the industry...this is a snow sports forum afterall. Lots of interesting inside knowledge to be shared.
IMV, spam or marketing is acceptable as long as...
| admin wrote: |
| ...you declare your area of expertise and no-one will feel the need to 'out' you... |
Getting back to the ex-topic. I think perhaps alot of folks are still feeling the squeeze on their real disposable incomes and are somewhat fatigued. I imagine, they'd like a break (what better way than a ski trip to the mountains during UK winters), but still can't quite manage it; hence "cheap". Similarly for the Swiss ski resort thread a few days ago too (but for different reasons).
I reckon if the price dropped a bit more (BOGOF ski pass or family deals?), TOs would be flooded by pent-up demand. Activity holidays are all the rage nowadays and skiing is top of the list IMO.
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I wonder how many TOs and ski accommodation providers have the word 'cheap' tagged in their google search data. Probably very few even include the word on their site.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| hammerite wrote: |
How exactly does this work @Lisa_BrentaSki? Are these click throughs to your website? Is there something on your website that is putting you higher up the Google rankings for "cheap (ski holidays)" this year compared to past which is why more people are clicking through?
Just wondering/interested how it works as well as wondering whether there are genuinely more people searching for cheap ski holidays. |
My understanding is that this is nothing to do with her website - it's the words that people are typing into google when they search for ski holidays. Hence it won't be influenced by how any website has been set up.
Be good to get the original post back up as it does genuinely seem to be driving discussion. Always nice to have something slightly different to talk about during the off season.
Now where's that link for cheap kitchens...
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@Handy Turnip, ah ok so Google Analytics is reporting what terms people are searching for. It's not a report showing the terms people searched for who ended up clicking through to the website.
And to think that two years ago my job meant I needed a vague understanding of Google marketing (we had someone who looked after it but I worked in sales). I have forgotten much!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| admin wrote: |
I tend to agree.
Meanwhile, pop a comment in your sigline (User Facilities (top left) => Forum profile) just mentioning who you work for. That way, you declare your area of expertise and no-one will feel the need to 'out' you.
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Hello Graham, I have added the signature line link. I met you in Folgarida.
@hammerite,
I am not an expert on Google Analytics, but I do spend quite some time on it trying to thwart the spammers and so this means I tend to view it maybe more than most and almost certainly more than I should.
As far as I can see there is one main problem with the way Google set this whole thing up and that is Money. From our view this problem shows itself in the vast number of bogus referrals as these totally screw up the data and, if we didn’t filter it, we wouldn’t know what was happening on our site. This is the same for every single website anywhere in the world. The spammers simply want you to visit their site as they have a cost-per-view setup with their advertisers. If they can get a million people per day, or whatever, to view it then the people paying to advertise on their site will need to pay for a million views. Of course this means that no one will actually click the advertisement, but that doesn’t matter to the spammers, as long as they get paid.
Over 90% of the traffic on our site is by automated spamming systems.
How many times do you see someone proclaiming proudly that their site has had X number of visits per day/month/year. But without being given access to the actual data – the FULL data – there is no way of telling what the true situation is. And of course no site owner is going to give access to this data as it is commercially sensitive. Let’s face it, apart from Wikipedea, NASA, Youtube, MSN and the BBC there are not many sites that get as many as they would have you believe.
If we cut anyway the spam for this month and compare it to the same month last year we can see that “for our site only” (of course I don’t have access to other site’s analytics) we can see the difference in the phrases or words that people type into the Google search box to enable them to land on our site.
I just found it interesting that last year only a few people included the word Cheap in the searches whereas this year more than half of all search include this word.
What does this mean? There is no real way of telling, but many people will have ideas and some/a few of those may be correct.
Of course there is a way to get everyone searching for Cheap Holidays, Red Cars, Pink Carnations, Albatrosses delivered to your door, etc to at least see your site’s advert and that is to simply pay for Google ad words. But then again you’re into the problem of money. There are millions upon millions of websites that are simply there to host Goggle Ads in the hope that someone will click one of them and the site’s owner will receive a payment from Goggle.
All in all, it’s a mess.
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@Lisa_BrentaSki, I found your original post interesting and (as I also sell holidays) somewhat worrying. I think your take on Google is spot on too.
We have found to our bitter experience that those searching for "cheap" are just that - and not typically the sort of people we want to encourage to return.
Our prices speak for themselves.
Just one question - could these hits be from 'bots "scraping" the web for material to sell on - a la skyscanner (which I find quite useful I have to say - I buy my flights (at least a return flight once a week) generally based principally on price, all else being more or less equal).
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You know it makes sense.
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@under a new name,
We don’t mind who books on to our trips.
We are not the cheapest where we operate as it is possible to stay down in the valley and get a bus up each day. The hotels tend to be cheaper the further away from the slopes you are. It is always possible to reduce the quality of a trip and cut the cost. We try and steer a line between the two.
It’s not difficult to get Google Analytics to give you the true information, but it does take an effort.
The Spammers are virtually all “bots”, it’s just a matter of updating a filter to get rid of them as they keep changing each day.
As an example we have had, during the last 3 months, 2000 referrals from webmasters.org, almost as many from trafficmonetize.org, plus over 1000 each from other such as event-tracking.com, web-buttons.com (inc. 1web-buttons.com, 2web-buttons.com, 3web-buttons.com, etc, etc, etc), plus many, many more.
EDIT don't go to any of those sites as some are well known virus loaders
Bot hits to a page are simple to get rid of by changing your Analytics
Change this line
ga('send', 'pageview');
to this
ga('send', 'pageview',' ABCXYZ1234&*%$£!' + location.pathname);
Of course don’t use ABCXYZ1234&*%$£! But make up your own.
Then in your filter “include” ONLY those hits that contain ABCXYZ1234&*%$£!.
Next “exclude” / (that’s a forward slash) so that any hits not directly from your site will not appear.
If you combine the filters
So include ONLY anything contain ABCXYZ1234&*%$£!
Exclude anything with a Landing Page containing /
Exclude anything with a Source containing buttons | tracking | monetize | webmasters
Note don’t put a | after the last name, also note that text can only be 200 digits, so you need to do create quite a few filters.
This “should” give you a real idea of the web traffic.
As I said I spend too long on analytics for my own good.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Lisa_BrentaSki,
| Quote: |
I spend too long on analytics for my own good
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No, really, it's interesting 
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Lisa_BrentaSki, thanks Lisa, all interesting.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Lisa_BrentaSki, If you use Google Adwords (without paying anything note!) you can see the phrases that Google "thinks" are looking at website like yours. A great way to work out what words you need to include on the SEO for your ranking.
Now if I can just stop people who want "a cottage that takes dogs" landing on my "cottage no pets" site I would be a happy man.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Lisa_BrentaSki, what an interesting conversation. I came into it a bit late so it was a bit confusing to start with!
I would imagine that some of the reasons for inclusion of "cheap" in the search might be the reforms in the civil service in the last few years and/or the tightening up of term time absence policies (as per your earlier discussion). We are a civil service family and the lack of pay rises (in fact the drop in actual salary) has had an effect on our standard of living. So skiing has had to be reviewed and decisions made about what we can do. And I'm fairly sure I've included "cheap" in some of my searches.
@under a new name, @queen bodecia, "cheap" is a relative term. Skiing is never going to be inexpensive. I'm looking for ways to reduce the cost of skiing, amongst other things, in the hope that we can still do it. I'm not looking for people to make a loss, just ways to stretch my budget.
And if you search "cheap skiing holidays 2016" into Google Crystal Ski, Thomas Cook, Igulski, Neilson and Inghams all appear on the first page.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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My understanding of Google (which may be wrong) is that companies have to pay more to have their names come up first in searches. Therefore if you search cheap ski holiday you will not necessarily get the cheapest ski holiday but a list of names of the companies that have paid to appear in the search for cheap ski holidays.
In response to the other debate above I think it would be nice if all TO employees could be given a friendlier welcome on snowheads and not be accused of promoting their business every time they post. It would be nice to have their experience shared on Snowheads.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Timberwolf,
We did used to advertise on this website but it is impossible to say whether it was worth it or not. The problems are (and this is the same with all pay-per-view adverts) is that you have no idea if they have worked. The website may tell you (you have no way of checking without looking at the analytics which you can't get access to) that X number of people have seen your advert. But, of course you can attempt gauge the levels of interest (via analytics/bookings/etc) compared to when the adverts are running but this is never going to be accurate. The Google system of cost-per-click is at least measurable. As administration manager I am in charge of the marketing budget and I really can only spend it when and where there is quantifiable response.
@snowymum,
Yes you can pay to place an advert with Google but even then if someone pays/bids more then their advert will be shown above yours. As Google only displays a certain number of adverts per page you can actually end up paying for an advert that is shown on page 100+.
SEO (Search Engine Optimisation) is what the vast majority of website owners undertake. Of course the best way to have you website at the top of page 1 is to have Trust. Trust is what Google rates as links to/from other sites. As an example if you search for virtually anything on the web then Wikipedia will come up first. The reason for this is that so many other sites show the Wiki link on their site. So Wikipedia has a trust level with is much higher than anyone else’s, so Google tends to rank them top. Having said that the ONLY people who know exactly how Google, Bing, Yahoo, etc, rank sites are the search engines themselves and they will only ever give hints, such as Google recently announced that SEO was increased by the amount of secure content on a site.
But we keep plugging away as always 
EDIT.
I have just done a Google search on these terms
hadrian's wall
korean birds of prey
Ski resort
jelly
and Wikipeada was always in the top few site returned.
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@Lisa_BrentaSki, fair enough. My comment about advertising was a little tongue in cheek, hence the wink at the end.
If you don't notice it, there will have been a discrete visit from my IP address this morning
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| Lisa_BrentaSki wrote: |
@Timberwolf,
We did used to advertise on this website but it is impossible to say whether it was worth it or not. The problems are (and this is the same with all pay-per-view adverts) is that you have no idea if they have worked. The website may tell you (you have no way of checking without looking at the analytics which you can't get access to) that X number of people have seen your advert. But, of course you can attempt gauge the levels of interest (via analytics/bookings/etc) compared to when the adverts are running but this is never going to be accurate. |
You can measure click-throughs from adverts on other people's sites because the http header to your site carries the referring address. Pretty much analytics tool will give you that including Google Analytics.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@dogwatch,
 Yes I know. If you look above, one of the things I try and do is the shift through referrals and delete the spam and pay attention to where the others come from.
But ski holidays are different from most other items which people buy.
This is one of the reasons we tend to write our website for people rather than search engines. As an example a few weeks ago we added a page which describes the differences between a few of the many types of Italian coffee. Now to a person this could be seen as part of the experience of going to Italy. To a search engines it’s at odds with the rest of the of the site. But we like it and it does get quite a few hits and, most importantly once they have landed on the pages most people spend at least a minute or so on it. So it seems (we hope) they are at least interested.
In our opinion, which may be wrong, one of the biggest difference between ski holidays and some other purchases which people make is the amount of time they will spend doing research. It is not uncommon for us to receive calls from people that have been looking at booking a ski trip for weeks and weeks. Of course there “may” be a number of reasons for this, the relatively high cost of the trip compared to a summer holiday, the wide choice available, and the different types of trips available, is it fully inclusive or just a basic trip, are the facilities available which you are personally looking for, e.g. flight from your local airport, etc. People may be comparing the cost, convenience, hassles, etc. between a tour operator and doing it DIY. There may be many reasons.
So being on the first page of Google, and having to design the site to achieve that, is not of such great importance as it may be in other industries.
And in case you’re interested in coffee
http://www.brentaski.com/pages/coffee_folgarida_madonna_di_campiglio.html
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Lisa, shouldn't mocha have coffee in it
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FAQ
) I won’t redo the original post.
