There are a lot of good people suffering greatly financially due to the high Swiss franc. It has become the currency of refuge for many nations. The Swiss government has expended vast amount of reserve trying to address the value of the franc but people keep buying. Small groups of key providers such as independent guides, small independent ski schools and small specialist retailers - really good guys on whom we rely for gear, support and service - are getting into a terrible financial state. I know that the Swiss have done things such as exert the minimum wage amongst temp seasonal workers, but many of these things do make sense when you dig a bit more deeply.
I am very worried about the small guys. They are good people and we depend on them for things ranging from a replacement for lost tat and screw-gates to heli service. They are the same types of guys who we love in the UK - Colin in Bicester at solutions 4 feet, Jon at the piste office.
First - stark realities - prices on the hill in Switzerland really are comparable to places like the Trois Vallee. Food, lift passes etc are comparable. Austria is, I know, largely cheaper, but France broadly is comparable. Accommodation in the small villages around resort - 10-15 mins drive to resort - is surprisingly cheap. Again, comparable to France.
Lift queues in low season were again this year negligible - all the weeks we spent on the hill this year, we had no queues at all outside Christmas and Easter weekends. Ski down, ski in, ride up.
Second I would like your advice. What are the things which could be laid on which would be attractive and get Brits back to Switzerland. 'Nothing' you might say. But how about these? it would great to have feedback. Last year I asked for feedback on whether female-only course would be in demand. They weren't, so I didn't recommend to the independent ski school in Crans that they put them on. In other words, your feedback is very valuable. Here we go...
1 a week with skiing and ski repair and maintenance workshops, with specialist technicians in support. Ski day one, repair skis 8-10am, go out wreck the bases on sharky slopes, another repair workshop on day 3 and 5.
2 Avalanche training - full training days in a very demanding off piste area, miles from anywhere. Full briefing on meteo, avoiding risk, access to pisteurs for discussions and observations, then out on the hill digging snow pits and reading slopes, as well as saving the lives of buried transceivers...
3 intro to ski touring, with guides to a couple of overnight stays in huts
4 a normal skiing week but with full access to all he resorts' facilities - time with lifties whilst closing up, up early to blast the slopes, an evening on piste bashers
5 a normal week but with race prep, and then full timed, long downhill, not dangerous gs, but 8km timed downhill run where small difference in technique can make a big difference
6 clinics for those recovering from injury. Instructors especially committed to rehabilitation from injury, medical advice avaiable through the week, physios on tap.
7 very small group tuition - intensive work in the morning, practice in the afternoon
8 guiding support rather than instruction. Stay in small village, accompanied from arrival in valley, immediate kit supply, help to resort on first day, all passes waiting, guiding support through day, shown all the secret ways and places in resort.
Anything else?
Any feedback really welcome. Without this, we run the risk of losing some very fine, small resorts.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 29-06-15 21:33; edited 1 time in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
There is no doubt the exchange rate has made Switzerland an expensive place to ski for Brits and Euros.
When I worked there in 2008 in was 2.6CHF to £ - today it is just 1.46CHF....
However if you get off the beaten track, away from the big tourist resorts, then it can be much better value.
Small resorts like G3000, Grimentz or Les Marecottes are way cheaper than the mega resorts such as Verbier or Zermatt.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Haggis_Trap, ....spot on; people only tend to think of verbier and zermatt. There's amazing skiing at grimentz and other stations in the val d'anniviers, and there's 120km at crans Montana. And indeed far cheaper than zermatt or verbier.
Haven't skied there for a few years after 3 visits between 2007 and 2010. One positive is the generous child reductions in Switzerland compared to France.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@valais2, I'm curious as to whether foreign visitors are so down or visits in general. I know that globally, tourism has been hit badly, but how many foreigners visited, say, Disentis in 2005 versus 2015?
How about positive encouragement for short breaks, possibly with intensive coaching at whatever level. Though I know from personal experience that it is actually quite easy to book short hotel breaks in swiss resorts (been to Grimentz, Engelberg and Zermatt, all for short trips) a lot of people still think such trips are hard to come by.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@under a new name, ...visits definitely well down in val d'anniviers, val d'herens and crans Montana...very obvious from both accounts of guides etc and guest house owners. Visits well down and foreign visitors too - Russians much affected by crash in Russian currency. @Perty, many thanks, good info re short breaks - actually valais resorts very accessible by road ( faster than three valleys) and by rail - Tgv from Paris to Sierre...very quick train from Geneva airport. Great fro a three to four day break (which I do all the time). Good info all...keep it coming....
After all it is free
After all it is free
@valais2, sorry, I keep asking you questions, not giving you answers... have the big foreign TOs moved away? Attracting them back may (!) make a more significant difference.
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... even the Swiss are skiing over the border in France and Austria (it is a bargain for them)
the Swiss franc certainly is artificially high - mainly because people see it as a safe haven from global uncertainty.
however there is no doubt this will hurt their industry, especially tourism.
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Esprit has certainly stopped going there. I know they aren't that big but one I watch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
On our only visit to Switzerland (Wengen) we found it a bit lacking in atmosphere and friendliness. Being charged a not inconsiderable amount (4 or 5 chf) for tap water on the table was just one of a number of small things that did not make us feel welcome, especially as we were usually buying at least 1 bottle of overpriced wine. Being charged for lunch we were not going to be allowed to eat in the Schilthorn restaurant was another. Just minutes after we'd ordered they decided they had to evacuate due to increasing winds, we had no food, but we still were being expected to pay the bill. Also, although it may be comparable to the 3V it was more expensive by a long way than the French resort we had spent the previous week in.
Not sure what would persuade me to go back to be honest.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Sun 21-06-15 18:37; edited 1 time in total
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
To get Brits back they have to make things cheaper - whether this is heavily subsidised lift passes with accommodation or free rail transfers or whatever is up to them. I used to go a lot for long weekends to Engelbert and Andermatt, haven't really considered it for 5 years.
Not really attracted by any of your ideas given underlying cost - sorry. If I fly into Zrh I'd rather drive to the Arlberg etc. Maybe a Gordycamp/ Grip n Rip type thing would attract me but I'd kinda want it so my benefit of paying for the camp was really cheap accom or lift pass etc.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@under a new name, entirely good questions ... In crans Montana, the english tour operators have moved out apart from two, not due solely to the Franc but due to the minimum wage requirement - which, given the wage structure in the industry I think is pretty reasonable. I have questioned the tour operators but they are unlikely to return swiftly - even with less restricted labour markets the underlying economics of the ski industry will most likely. Mean that we willl see a big consolidation of operators and a reduction in capacity.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@Hells Bells, in the small valais resorts this would be considered very poor. Tap water is of course not available in many mountain restaurants as they have no potable water supply, so it's usually bottled. But lower down the hill it's no problem to ask for tap water at all. I frequent a load of lovely small family restaurants - la cure at aminona, petit paradis at bluche, cave du sex in the summer and they are just great - local produce, excellent service, reasonable prices and none of the nonsense you describe in wengen. In over twenty years of being in the valais I have never heard of this kind of thing. Chetzeron is a bit more expensive
But then it is one of the most beautiful restaurants I have been to (and I travel the world a lot) - we have Christmas lunch there every year as a family tradition, the bill hurts less than the equivalent in France or London.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:
To get Brits back they have to make things cheaper
Easier said than done when you have to pay the bills / wages in CHF.
Pre 2008 Switzerland was similarly priced to the UK.
Prices are still the same in CHF, inflation in CH is low - however the exchange rate has made Switzerland unfordable for many.
Shame - as Valais has some of the best skiing in Europe.
The Swiss franc is (IMHO) artificially high due to investors using the currency as a safe haven.
The government tried to artificially peg CHF to the euro up until last year.
But this costs the government a serious amount of money
The economics benefit of such tactics are debatable, and obviously a strong CHF suits some Swiss people as well.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@valais2, I think most of the suggestions you have in the original post would only appeal to a tiny minority of the most dedicated/nerdy skiers. They certainly wouldn't appeal to the vast majority. The most important thing to do is focus on price / VFM. I struggle to believe that prices are comparable to all but the most expensive ski areas in France and that's your problem. I may be wrong or I may be right, but if I'm wrong you need to address the perception. If I'm right then you need to cut the costs somehow to attract British skiers.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
not too sure how best to approach this.
agree with foxtrotzulu that the ideas won't be enough.
I have a place in Grimentz. it is fully rented all winter season or as full as we want. however, our renters are mainly non Brits booking through e-domizil or homeaway type sites ie not coming through any UK directed sales activity. UK visitors are up YOY but in total make up less than 5 % of numbers, despite many press visits and decent UK coverage as a result. our perception is that UK visitors tend to be word of mouth or property purchasers. I don't think that will change in these small resorts. owners need to be realistic about their target market, as with all such property anywhere.
I also don't think tourist office heads think they can fight the strong CHF so naturally focus on clients who are less currency affected eg Swiss and wealthy ones.
the Nouvelliste paper reported that bed nights in Valais were down by, I think, 10% yoy which feels about right. there are subsidised loans available to hoteliers but there are still many hotels for sale in the valley. so supply exceeds demand in the medium range hotels sector. there, the issue is that the hotels have not moved with the time sufficiently. I am pretty confident that if the right hotel investment was made (probably half board to fix costs for guests) it would succeed. bella tola hotel in St Luc get it right and have added on various other side offerings.
so, I agree that Swiss resorts will be a niche offering for UK visitors for the foreseeable. outside the big name resorts, those who can offer something niche or high quality will still attract in guests willing to pay the premium. skizinal.com is another good example, as is backcountryadventures.co.uk.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@foxtrotzulu, ...have done homework on this and prices on the hill comparable to many mainstream destinations in France eg les arcs, la plagne, meribel, deux alpes, alp d'huez. Indeed cheaper in Austria. But as many have said, the skiing I the valais is extremely good,
Thanks for the suggestions and observations ... All very helpful.
@valais2, How much do you reckon you could put an All-In package together (with or without flights)?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
It's expensive, you can't change that.
Target people who can afford it.
Don't try and do cheaper at the expense of quality.
Convince them it's good value.
Take away to hidden charges risk.
Nothing wrong with ideas.
I think the more you can bundle in the better.
PS twenty years ago the Swiss were skiing in Austria to save money.
^ yip : Brits will still ski in Switzerland.
However those on a "normal budget" will just go DIY / youth hostel / self catering apartment option.
Rather than book a package deal.
I heard there are no large British tour ops visiting Zermatt anymore ?
Surprised me until I thought about it...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@ALQ, ...not exactly my bag since I simply ski the hill but have friends who have ski school n resort....but
6 day pass 245 gbp
6 days lessons in independent ski school Swiss mountain sports max 5 per group 220 gbp
I usually get flights for around 120 gbp
Train to Sierre return 90 gbp
That's 477 gbp without accommodation -
After all it is free
After all it is free
valais2, I paid the same as that for my French season pass.
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@valais2, I was asking coz if you're saying it's not as expensive as folks think, then there's a perception issue that needs to be neutralized. An All-In package may relieve some of the fears of £20 burgers etc.
I like your ideas, but not sure it will be enough. It's sad to hear the little guys getting crushed, but I think they'll need a resort-wide marketing effort to get more not-so-rich folks in to resort.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
valais2 wrote:
Without this, we run the risk of losing some very fine, small resorts.
I dare say. I think we are over-provided with small resorts that aren't viable and that isn't restricted to Switzerland.
As for your opening list. sorry but none of those would interest me.
Your premise that the most expensive area in France is comparable in cost to some less expensive areas in Switzerland is pretty much a statement of the problem. I'm afraid I think the point at which the Swiss have set the minimum wage is the nail in the coffin of mass tourism and even before that, "mass" was pretty strained. With a couple of exceptions, I'm not sure that catering only to the super-wealthy can sustain ski facilities for an entire resort.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@dogwatch, ...no, that's not the comparison I made. The most expensive places in France are val d'isere and courchevel. I think my concern is based on the fact that I ski in France with friends ( st Martin) and find prices on the hill comparable with places like Crans Montana. And crans is hardly small...120 km of piste and loads of off piste including the huge area of the faverges. Zinal has an amazing free ride zone which keeps good condition because of its orientation. Some skiers have the mental fix of 'must cover distance' - which is one entirely legitimate way of spending a week - but others don't approach it in this way, often due to having small children, so 120 km is more than enough for them.
I'm certainly not thinking of catering for the super-wealthy, quite the reverse. Specialist provison like the skiers lodge in la grave isn't only for the super-wealthy.
Self- catering and self-drive to places like St Lucia and grimentz is really reasonable. Staying in the small villages can be really cheap. That's the point of discussing this misperception. The Swiss franc is indeed very high, but the underlying costs can be equivalent to other places.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
As a customer I have mixed feelings re Swiss ski hols. I do not mind paying more if I get something better in return (views, infrastructure, less people, etc). in my view ski infrastructure in CH is not better than in AT or FR. Food is not that good (for my liking) as in FR, IT Or AT. Crowds - my last two trips were to interlaken/grindenwald and 4 valleys - quite busy. I love CH skiing, but it is not better in any way, I will certainly come back because I still like it, but only when at least the exchange rate is more favourable and I'm tired of a good FR And IT food
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
valais2 wrote:
@dogwatch, ...no, that's not the comparison I made. The most expensive places in France are val d'isere and courchevel. I think my concern is based on the fact that I ski in France with friends ( st Martin) and find prices on the hill comparable with places like Crans Montana. And crans is hardly small
If by "prices on the hill" you mean mountain restaurants, that's pretty tertiary to me. Around 5% of the cost of the holiday. As for mountain restaurant prices in Val d'Isere, if you know where to go you can have a simple lunch for €10 a head which isn't dissimilar to a UK pub lunch. You can of course pay a great deal more.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
TeleVerbier announced last week a 6.2% drop in lift ticket revenue for last season. Of course the removal of the CHF:€ peg only impacted on the last two months of the season. They say mucky weather at weekends was the other issue. They don't mention last summer's squabble over the future of the 4 valleys has having any impact.
Whilst the Brit market is not insignificant, the bigger impact is on those coming from the €zone. Sterling is nearly back to where it was before the € peg was removed. With the €:CHF rate now virtually at parity it makes Switzerland over 20% more expensive to those earning € then it was 4 months ago. It's the lack of German, Dutch and French visitors that will really be felt this winter and it will impact on the cheaper end of the market most, which is bad news for smaller Swiss resorts.
If you can afford all the other things that skiing in Switzerland involves, you may not be looking for budget accommodation. We've seen that in Verbier where the bottom end of the housing market has gone a bit soft.
There's going to have to be some significant discounting to get people back. At least anything imported from the €zone, should be 20% cheaper than it was, and I'm not sure we're seeing all those savings being passed on to consumers.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@dogwatch, was thinking of equipment hire, lift pass and food and drink.
And re busy or quiet, I skied in mid and late January, then feb half term then late March - no queues at all - and with a huge dump in March just no one on the hill during days of snow - and that makes for a lot of time skiing rather than waiting. At the same time I skied in meribel and queued for ages and ages
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
We (Inside Out Skiing) were planning a trip to Switzerland next season, with a week's coaching, half board accommodation in a basic hotel within walking distance of the lift, short transfers from Geneva, low season week, PDS ski domain so more than enough terrain for teaching, for those who want to test themselves and those who like to rack up the mileage with cross border skiing. Then the Franc was unpegged from the Euro and quite literally overnight the trip became financially impossible for us, so we're heading to Finland instead.
One of the challenges that we always face is getting accommodation for solo travellers, some are happy to share but many are not so a place with a relatively large number of single rooms or a hotel happy to allow sole use of a twin for low (or no) single supplement is a deal breaker. This is a real tough point for us, and our experience is that most hotels are not interested, even in low season weeks. It might be a bit of a niche market, but if resort accommodation providers were able to be flexible about the cost of solo travellers during low season weeks I'm sure they would be in a better position to attract group bookings comprised of friends, solo travellers, etc.
Another thing which makes life easier for those arranging groups is for the hotel to have a transfer service from their local airport direct to the hotel. For example, I know a large number of independent chalet operators in Meribel work together to provide an effective transfer service from Geneva which allows door-door transfers. If you are looking to work in a market which means a large proportion of your clients are going to fly having an easy and cost-effective airport transfer service is a major factor in your favour. On a related point, over the last couple of winters there seems to have been an on-going argument about such transfer services having access to GVA. That kind of action seemed very counter-productive and I know several of the transfer operators and chalet companies were very worried about being denied access and the consequent effect on their business.
I had to ski Zermatt last season for a week and (as someone who skis regularly in the Trois Vallees and Espace Killy) I found it eye-wateringly expensive. Parking down the valley, train up the valley, accommodation, lift pass, coffee and food on the hill were all stupidly, IMHO, expensive. On a previous trip to the Mighty Z I also had the rudest service from a waiter I've had on a mountain, in fact the rudest service of any kind in any location. The famed Swiss standard of service clearly didn't extend as for as Mr Grumpy Pants of Zermatt.
I think Norway's tourist industry has similar issues to CH ?
It is only 1-1.5hr flight from the UK.
Some great skiing with reliable snow.
Lovely place to visit in winter or summer with (IMHO) some of the best scenery in Europe.
But : NOK-£ exchange rate make it even more expensive than Switzerland for visitors....
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
rob@rar wrote:
Then the Franc was unpegged from the Euro and quite literally overnight the trip became financially impossible for us, so we're heading to Finland instead.
And yet the CHF-GBP exchange rate bounced back to the previous level within 6 weeks.
From my POV there is most definitely a perception problem. When we were in France at the end of April, we were shocked because Carrefour and Super U (and not up a mountain) were more expensive than we are used to for our day-to-day shiopping here. Unlike France, prices in Switzerland don't tend to increase as you go up the mountain. The price in the Coop in Flims is the same as the price in the Coop in Richterswil is the same as the price in the Coop in the back of beyond. If you want to ski on a budget, self-catering is a very viable - and very flexible - option here. If you're looking for the classic French/Austrian chalet experience, you aren't going to find it here any more because work permits won't be issued if staff aren't being paid a proper wage. Personally I think that's eminently fair - why should foreign companies get preferential treatment over locals? - and, more to the point, I don't think that model is going to survive for very much longer in France either. At which point, you can start to compare French apples with Swiss apples
My perception is that Graubünden hasn't suffered so badly, or rather more from the weather; in Flims/Laax we have 3 major championships each season, coach loads upon coach loads coming down from Germany each weekend (similar language, no real mountains of their own, day-trippable), easy reach of major Swiss conurbations etc., excellent shuttle bus from ZRH etc
The major problem in Switzerland is land prices, they're some of the highest in the world and those costs impact massively on overhead and therefore on the price of everything. It's simply not possible to just reduce prices to attract Brits because it's a sure way to go out of business - we do have to subsist here.
Best bet might be to target nationalities for whom English is the lingua franca, rather than specifically Brits. Also target Swiss residents - there are plenty of expats and emigrées who fit that description. For instance we saw 15 different nationalities through our doors in 2014. And, at the risk of poking head over parapet, as long-term residents here we do find the Brits in particular, and also the Americans, are shocking for knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing. So maybe consider changing your target market and use the English language as your USP
our and Super U (and not up a mountain) were more expensive than we are used to for our day-to-day shiopping here
Really? We do much of our shopping in France because it's much cheaper on the whole and particularly for meat than in Geneva.
Quote:
might be to target nationalities for whom English is the lingua franca
I'd expect that to work. Although as far as we can see almost the entire Anglophonic population of Geneva head to Verbier at the weekend. The rest come to Chamonix. (Although in fairness, the Jura stations seem to enjoy considerable family traffic at weekends).
@valais2, I think that you need to propose things that aren't easily available (and cheaper) elsewhere - I don't, I'm afraid, see anything on your list as being Swiss specific enough. I like @eng_ch's suggestion because you're catering to an existing market that probably get paid in CHFs - and one that may well be poorly targeted right now.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@valais2, Sorry but the ideas you mention aren't enough to tempt me/ us back, its simply too expensive to even consider right now. I have skied regularly in Nendaz, Verbier, Chur area and also many other smaller Valais resorts in 2000 to 2010 period but for us right now its off-limits, the numbers just don't stack up.
We fly into ZRH and go straight out to Arlberg. Everything is very expensive, hotels, travel, food, lunches, lift passes etc.
I don't know what the answer is for the Swiss tourist industry but I have many pals who used to ski there regularly and none are even considering coming back right now.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Quote:
And, at the risk of poking head over parapet, as long-term residents here we do find the Brits in particular, and also the Americans, are shocking for knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing.
@eng_ch, That's a sure fire way of attracting people back! You'll die a slow death with an attitude like that......
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@under a new name, meat I will grant you, but Lidl is not at all bad for meat and, especially for fish. I got a goose from Lidl for Xmas, it cost me CHF 39, served 5 of us and did 2 days. Didn't think that was at all bad. We do most of our shopping in Denner, which is 1 min walk from home, and there's also one in Flims. Richti is also just about to get a new Aldi (opening on Thursday) so the best prosecco - only CHF 6.95 - will now be in walking distance.
Also, sure milk is vastly more expensive in CH than in the UK, but then Swiss farmers are paid a price that goes further towards covering the costs. I think it's a ridiculous situation that the UK supermarkets have trained consumers to think a retail price that is lower than production costs is somehow their right. It's madness.
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I am DIYing - driving from the South East staying in self catered accommodation and only interested in the skiing rather than the nightlife. Rightly or wrongly, my perception of Switzerland is that accommodation and lift pass is going to be expensive and the lift system inefficient or disjointed. I also thought it was a tad more difficult to get to many of the resorts in France. Can you get an apartment for 4 for 500 Euros at Christmas or Easter in Switzerland? Are the lift passes comparable to France? Is my perception of the lift systems wrong? We always go to France. Whilst we have to pay tolls the roads are pretty reliable. There is an abundance of cheap apartments, once we arrive we never have to use the car or a bus again for the week, and the lift systems generally max out the skiing time. Also, most of the resorts are guaranteed snow December and April. Can Switzerland match that? I'd like it to because there are a lot of places I'd like to ski in Switzerland. Maybe some of my perceptions are wrong?
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