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BASI sued for £500 000

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Sod it, gonna run out of pizza and popcorn. Sad
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
It'll be over by Christmas.....
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@AndAnotherThing.., that's what they said about World War One (well, they said it about the Great War, because it wasn't known that there would be a World War Two....)
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@dobby, wink
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I was reading about a 2000 reform to the French legislation governing ski instructor (and other mountain) qualifications which was drawn up the then Minister of Sports Marie-George Buffet. Buffet, looking at the whole concept of equivalence in the EU, proposed that the French ENSA qualifications were not some reference by which others should be judged but would be just another set of qualifications amongst other routes to becoming a qualified ski instructor. "Does someone need to ski a slalom at world cup levels to teach kids on a nursery slope", asked Buffet? Buffet's changes would include foreign examinations, work experience and even amateur examinations as starting points for becoming an instructor.

Needless to say the law was totally gutted in the Senate by politicians representing the ESF.

http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2000/03/02/89276-les-moniteurs-de-ski-et-guides-defendent-leur-profession.html
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from the basi newsletter:

Quote:
BASI Initiates Brenaissance Discussions with French

On 18 October, Andrew Lockerbie and Dave Renouf met with the French (SNMSF, ESI) got to formally introduce James Lister as BASI's new Chair and to reaffirm BASI's commitment to co-operative working with European countries on snowsports instruction issues. The French took this opportunity to reconfirm the good relationship and friendship that has been established over the years with BASI, with a special mention and thanks to Dave Renouf. The French also confirmed that the current situation with the Eurotest for Alpine and Snowboarding would still exist despite Brexit and that the access to gain the French Carte Professionalle would remain as it is.

BASI confirmed that the Eurotest would remain part of the Level 4 qualification award and that BASI would continue to take an active part in the running of the Eurotests and the French welcomes this confirmation. There was a broad-ranging discussion on instructor work opportunities for BASI qualified instructors and the French were keen to point out that Level 2 and Level 3 qualified instructors can teach in France (if they meet the French system requirements) and that there are work opportunities for BASI Level 4 instructors within their own snowsport schools. All agreed that there was work to be done to build understanding at a local level in resorts for the BASI qualification, as BASI instructors were seen by some in France as a threat rather than an asset to the local economies, but it was important to have the conversations and see where understanding can be increased. One area to start with was the possibility of French snowsport schools placing any vacancies they have on the BASI Jobs Board.
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What would UKIP say if this was a Frenchman e.g. A "Simon Butleur" setting up a business in UK, importing French ski worker people with insufficient quals?
But UKIP - they seem to support his cause in La Belle France.
(sorry, it's an old link and doubtless already posted here).
http://www.ukipmeps.org/news_880_UKIP-stands-up-for-victimised-British-Ski-Instructor.html
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The Scottish court case that this thread is about has nothing to do with French working rights but is to do with SB having his MoU stamp recinded and being booted out of BASI and his license to practice revoked. The courts forced BASI to reinstate his membership and will make a decision on his claims for loss.

@SkiPresto, A lot of people like to point to UKIP's taking up his cause but if I was facing jail time and my professional body acted as they have done I would enlist every politician I could. FYI the Conversative MEP also went to bat for him http://conservativeeurope.com/news/mcclarkin-ski-case-highlights-french-protectionism
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@skimottaret, Indeed
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UKIP is un peu de hareng rouge in this case.
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Quote:

UKIP is un peu de hareng rouge in this case.


as are the eurotest, gallic arrogance, Brexit, the merits of purpose-built resorts and the prospects of decent snow at christmas this year.
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@Little Martin, BASI Initiates Brenaissance Discussions with French

Wouldn't it be a nice change if BASI initiated discussions with some other EU country other than France. Perhaps talk to one or two that actually welcome L2 and L3 BASI members to work and that our association actually tried to ensure that current members working rights in places such as Italy, Austria, Spain, Finland, etc. carry on..
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skimottaret wrote:
@Little Martin, BASI Initiates Brenaissance Discussions with French

Wouldn't it be a nice change if BASI initiated discussions with some other EU country other than France. Perhaps talk to one or two that actually welcome L2 and L3 BASI members to work and that our association actually tried to ensure that current members working rights in places such as Italy, Austria, Spain, Finland, etc. carry on..


My thoughts exactly after reading the BASI email in the week.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@skimottaret Thanks for your knowledgeable info! (I note, though that as far as I recall, the rescinding of the MOU was for SB's own quals (or alleged lack of them) as well as the hiring of unqualified assistant ski instructors, and the consequent embarrassment to B*SI. I'm aware that the court case has been brought down to the simpler case of whether the MOU withdrawal was legal or not and if not whether damages are payable.)

The herring may well be a red one, but do we forsee a new "war-II" if the ESF decides to prosecute for something like operating as a ski school with insufficient quals all round?
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
SkiPresto wrote:
... do we forsee a new "war-II" if the ESF decides to prosecute
Does the ESF have powers of prosecution?
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@SkiPresto, Lets wait for the court decide, I hope that being an embarrassment to BASI isn't grounds for revoking someones license Wink

working rights in FR and the rest of the EU is a much wider discussion...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rob@rar wrote:
SkiPresto wrote:
... do we forsee a new "war-II" if the ESF decides to prosecute
Does the ESF have powers of prosecution?

OK "take legal action" might have been better wording. :-}
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
SkiPresto wrote:
OK "take legal action" might have been better wording. :-}
What sort of power does the ESF have to take legal action?
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Little Martin wrote:
from the basi newsletter:

Quote:
BASI Initiates Brenaissance Discussions with French

On 18 October, Andrew Lockerbie and Dave Renouf met with the French (SNMSF, ESI) got to formally introduce James Lister as BASI's new Chair and to reaffirm BASI's commitment to co-operative working with European countries on snowsports instruction issues. The French took this opportunity to reconfirm the good relationship and friendship that has been established over the years with BASI, with a special mention and thanks to Dave Renouf. The French also
<snip> ... and the French welcomes this confirmation.


If this is an example of the attitude, communication skills and diplomacy of BASI, then there's no hope for them. "The French" indeed... rolling eyes did they meet with all 67ish million of them, or with a few representatives of ski organisations? Or is this a global search and replace by someone too tired of reading a list of the organisations every time? If the text is as they published it, it reads very badly and has more than a hint of the "Johnny Foreigner" rubbish we've had too much of over the last 6 months.

Last season, I had the misfortune to have two BASI members stumble into me (literally) in Saalbach. They were half-wearing BASI jackets and salopettes, had obviously topped up the beers they had over lunch with schnapps, were braying about how France is so much better at serving a decent lunch, and had some trouble finding their skis before spending 10 minutes trying to fathom why the bindings weren't working before miraculously discovering that it's easier to get your boot in if you hold onto something so your body stops swaying. This was at 1pm. I was less than impressed, I have to admit... I think one of them was even called Nigel Embarassed
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@ousekjarr, sounds more like SCGB reps to me!... you sure the other one wasn't called Tarquin?
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Definitely not, but given the age and state of both the people and the clothing, it wouldn't surprise me if they were retired. The jackets clearly said BASI on the back, but of course I didn't take any photos Sad

Having skied mainly in Austria, I have only ever seen one SCGB rep, and he was looking lonely in the centre of Mayrhofen.
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Simon Butler back in court in Lyon today.
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davidof wrote:
Simon Butler back in court in Lyon today.


Not in person, he's in America wink
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stewart woodward wrote:
davidof wrote:
Simon Butler back in court in Lyon today.


Not in person, he's in America wink

He doesn't look Hispanic, should be OK.
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ousekjarr wrote:
Little Martin wrote:
from the basi newsletter:

Quote:
BASI Initiates Brenaissance Discussions with French

On 18 October, Andrew Lockerbie and Dave Renouf met with the French (SNMSF, ESI) got to formally introduce James Lister as BASI's new Chair and to reaffirm BASI's commitment to co-operative working with European countries on snowsports instruction issues. The French took this opportunity to reconfirm the good relationship and friendship that has been established over the years with BASI, with a special mention and thanks to Dave Renouf. The French also
<snip> ... and the French welcomes this confirmation.


If this is an example of the attitude, communication skills and diplomacy of BASI, then there's no hope for them. "The French" indeed... rolling eyes did they meet with all 67ish million of them, or with a few representatives of ski organisations? Or is this a global search and replace by someone too tired of reading a list of the organisations every time? If the text is as they published it, it reads very badly and has more than a hint of the "Johnny Foreigner" rubbish we've had too much of over the last 6 months.


+1 - quite incredible really
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Anyone know the outcome of the Simon Butler case at Le tribunal administratif de Lyon on th November this year - can't find it anywhere in French or English
Puzzled
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dauphine today:

http://www.ledauphine.com/haute-savoie/2016/11/23/le-moniteur-de-ski-britannique-accuse-d-exercice-illegal-a-megeve-gagne-une-manche
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Google Translate:

Criminal justice was wrong, but administrative justice proved him right: a British ski instructor from Megève (Haute-Savoie), accused of illegal practice for lack of a suitable diploma, canceled a prefectural decision refusing to issue him business card.
Sentenced on 14 November 2013 to a six-month suspended prison sentence and a fine of 12,000 euros, Simon Butler, 53, was sentenced to a new fine of 30,000 euros on 16 June 2014 before the Bonneville Criminal Court for Having persisted in teaching skiing without the required qualifications.
He had appealed against that judgment to the Court of Appeal of Chambéry which, on 29 April 2015, had suspended his decision pending the decision of the Administrative Court of Lyon, which Mr Butler had brought before him.
"This is the first time that a British ski instructor has taken the administrative justice of the problem. And that makes all the difference because the correctional court only took note of the position of the State and the ministry, while the administrative tribunal analyzed it, "the lawyer of Mr. Butler, Me Philippe Planès.
In this case, the Administration considers that the qualifications of Mr Butler, who holds the highest diploma of ski instructor in the United Kingdom, does not enable him 'to ensure the safe teaching of alpine skiing' , Failing to hold a European aptitude test, Eurotest.
For this reason, the Prefect of Rhône-Alpes had refused, in February 2014, to issue a professional card to Mr Butler asking him to pass the Eurotest. But the administrative court gave him wrong in a decision made Tuesday.
"What the court said was that the administration must show that the applicant did not have the level to deny him the card, before claiming the Eurotest; The fact of not holding the Eurotest is not, in itself, proof of incompetence, "says Planès.
As the profession of ski instructor was not regulated in the United Kingdom, the administration also excluded Mr Butler from the scope of the Sport Code, which provides, under certain conditions, for an implicit recognition of diplomas awarded in the Member States Members of the EU.
The Court held, however, that as the training of instructors was regulated in the Channel, that condition was sufficient under the same Sport Code to be "deemed" duly qualified to practice in France.
On the penal plane, the Court of Appeal of Chambéry will rule on 15 March.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
So he won?
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@sugardaddy, looks like it!
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sugardaddy wrote:
So he won?


I think we need a legal opinion from TTT rolling eyes
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This is pretty massive no? Looks like skiing might be brought into line with other industries. E.g. I don't hold a masters degree, yet was able to practice in France in my occupation due to my "equivalent skills"...

What skills of a ski instructor might be weighted off as 'equivalent' to the ET I wonder? Toofy Grin
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Ah hah - not looking so clever now are we BASI?

Yep - where is TTT to tell us the courts have screwed it and only he/she knows the real law?
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Short-term victory perhaps? All for nought post-Brexit?

I believe Butler v. BASI will be resolved soon (and is likely to lead to another victory for Butler, I guess).
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Thanks - I think the ruling was only given today which explains why I couldn't find it earlier, it's all over our local news here in the 3V now. The headline translates more like 'An English ski instructor (Simon Butler) has won the [first] leg or first round.Looking forward to seeing how this one pans out . . . . .
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I think it's a happy Christmas for Snow White (Simon Butler) And well you know how the rest goes...................
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rob@rar wrote:
Short-term victory perhaps? All for nought post-Brexit?.


If we get a Frexit perhaps they would want a 'deal' on ski instructors wink

SB to be represented by Nigel Farrage Puzzled
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TTT must be crying in her beer, but good news for UK qualified people if it's what it appears to be.

BASI's corrupt deal to make their members second-rate in France is looking a bit fragile.
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Quote:

The Court held, however, that as the training of instructors was regulated in the Channel,


Perhaps the court thought this was about water skiing wink Toofy Grin
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4 years later and he wins in one French court France another 6 months to see if he will be exonerated in the criminal courts.

The BASI case is due Tuesday.


Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Fri 25-11-16 10:05; edited 1 time in total
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