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BASI sued for £500 000

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@halfhand, +1. I cannot fault the instruction I regularly receive from a Level 2 and a Level 3 instructor. The proof of the pudding is the improvement in my skiing. And I have received instruction from one or two Level 4s which - at least for me, as an intermediate punter - was not as good.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@speed098, I'd agree with that.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Could we look at learning to ski in the same way as learning to drive? Both require a level of skill to be safely done, and this needs to be taught in a safe environment by people fully qualified to pass on the knowledge to make sure those that they are teaching are fully prepared for what dangerous activity they are about to undertake.

Would we ask a fully qualified driving instructor to have the same qualifications as a level 4 ski instructor, in that they must get around a race course within a % of time that a fully qualified racing driver would do?

It seems strange that ski instruction has this elitist approach to it. Why cant the equivalent to a learner driving instructor earn a good living from teaching skiing to beginners/intermediates . Is skiing more skilled than driving a car? I am guessing, but i would think that most instruction work in the ski industry is in teaching those new to skiing. How close the instructor is to a full time racer is irrelevant. What is more important is how they pass on the knowledge to skiers.

I'm sure a 30 year old new to skiing wont want instruction from a 25 year old failed racer, they would probably learn a lot more from an instructor who took up skiing later in life. They would find it easier to relate to them, and the instructor would have a better understanding of what their clients are going through.
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halfhand wrote:

I've never felt the need to question the quals of my instructor


That's lucky 'cos BASI doesn't publish them, not at least to the unwashed masses of punter skiers who might want to know the qualifications of the instructor they are hiring. At least I've looked and failed to find.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
If I were a BASI member with less than L4 qualifications I think I would be very upset with the way that my organisation treats me
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@yuppie,

+1

I wanted to highligh a couple of sections but frankly it is all to the point.

Experts in any given field don't automatically make the best tutors.
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@D G Orf,
Quote:

If I were a BASI member with less than L4 qualifications I think I would be very upset with the way that my organisation treats me


Me too
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
fatboyski wrote:
@yuppie,

+1

I wanted to highligh a couple of sections but frankly it is all to the point.

Experts in any given field don't automatically make the best tutors.

Unless tutoring is the field! Or are BASI levels just based on your skiing? That would be strange.
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I would just like to clarify that@fatboyski, is not Alex Casey as some private messages have asked.
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wot Puzzled

Who believes I'm whom?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@fatboyski, I'm Alex Casey, and a lot of clients that i used to teach skiing are on here, a lot of them also know me as "FatBoy" so you can see the confusion.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@BlubaBluba, Ah, yes then.

My apologies if this is a sore point, but you used the past tense .."that I used to teach.." have you been caught up in this absurd situation with France?
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@fatboyski, yep Alex is a long-term Simon Butler employee, and the best motivator of teenagers, in any field, that I've ever met. A few old codgers love skiing with him as well. Apparently he can't ski a GS course quite fast enough, but then again he's coached youngsters to significant racing success.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Thanks @laundryman, After all the crap that has been going on your words mean a lot, just wish a few more people realised that some of the greatest instructors i've ever had the pleasure to work with have lost out on great careers, such a massive loss to company and industry.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Can't pass the Eurotest? Go and work in Austria, Switzerland, Andorra and others.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@waitrose, You seem to be another one of those people who believe the lies from basi, read the laws yourself not what you are told, you don't need the Eurotest to work in France, you don't even have to take the Test Technique.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@BlubaBluba, From catching up with the post I see you have already/are considering retiring.
If what @laundryman, says is true then that's a shame.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@fatboyski, It's true, 14 years i worked as a ski instructor and loved every second of it, gave 100% everyday to the clients and more.
The fact that basi keeps telling everyone lies is going to kill the industry, the truth will come out very soon and i can't wait.
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yuppie wrote:
Could we look at learning to ski in the same way as learning to drive? Both require a level of skill to be safely done, and this needs to be taught in a safe environment by people fully qualified to pass on the knowledge to make sure those that they are teaching are fully prepared for what dangerous activity they are about to undertake.

Would we ask a fully qualified driving instructor to have the same qualifications as a level 4 ski instructor, in that they must get around a race course within a % of time that a fully qualified racing driver would do?

It seems strange that ski instruction has this elitist approach to it. Why cant the equivalent to a learner driving instructor earn a good living from teaching skiing to beginners/intermediates . Is skiing more skilled than driving a car? I am guessing, but i would think that most instruction work in the ski industry is in teaching those new to skiing. How close the instructor is to a full time racer is irrelevant. What is more important is how they pass on the knowledge to skiers.

I'm sure a 30 year old new to skiing wont want instruction from a 25 year old failed racer, they would probably learn a lot more from an instructor who took up skiing later in life. They would find it easier to relate to them, and the instructor would have a better understanding of what their clients are going through.


100%

And a major reason why I went to Canada to train to become an instructor.
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@BlubaBluba, I have read the law for myself and in great depth and currently you need to pass the Eurotest with an ISTD to work as a fully fledged instructor in France. Until the highest and ultimate courts interpret the law differently that is how the law is. I concede that the courts may well decide differently in which case things will change but until that happens you need the qualifications as stated. In the meantime, I am happy to be able to work in Austria, Switzerland, Andorra and other countries that have a muti-tiered system.

Please note @BlubaBluba, that I do NOT want to get into an argument about it, there is no point. If at some point in the future the law is interpreted differently to how the French ski authorities see it then fine but until that time I am not going to risk being arrested and to be honest I prefer to work in Austria. In the meantime, let's not argue about it please.
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hey, @waitrose, could you write a short paragraph that also solves the euro crisis?... NO-ONE will argue or even WANT to offer any kind of RETRIBUTE to your POST.
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@waitrose, I never argue on these things anyway, and for the record i never wanted to get arrested either, i did my last season in Crans Montana (Switzerland) and it was great fun, the thing that amused me the most was that the process of declaring yourself to work in Switzerland is exactly the same process in France, 100% same laws. funny old world.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@flangesax, not quite sure I fully understand your post but the reason I don't want to get into a discussion/argument with @BlubaBluba, on this issue is because it has already been debated over and over. The courts will eventually decide how EU laws should be interpreted by EU member sates and I prefer to wait until then.

I had originally made the point that if people wanted to teach skiing without having to do the Eurotest then there were a number of other countries they could teach in which is true and yet for some reason I was accused of being another person who doesn't know the law and believing BASI's lies which is not only untrue it is also unfair.

Hi @BlubaBluba, yes perhaps so, except that to teach skiing in Switzerland you don't need any qualifications whatsoever so not quite the same laws in that regard.

The fact is that each country developed their own ski instructing qualification system over many decades. Their own system suited their culture and the way their country worked, it is therefore going to take some time and no doubt quite a few lengthy discussions before they and the EU hierarchy decide how to integrate each others system.


Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Wed 22-07-15 1:29; edited 1 time in total
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I could probably help with the Euro crisis, but only if you explain first what "RETRIBUTE" means.
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if basi are shown to have being telling porky pies then the lot of them should be shown the door at the very least......

without knowing the in's and out's of it the only observation that i would make it seems very odd that France is allowed to be the exception to a european rule, indeed i believe that austria have now also agreed that they have to operate on the same playing field and remove their special conditions so they are the same as italy, switzerland, spain etc etc....... anyone would think that France has a protectionist culture? Happy
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@ajc2260626, France are not the exception. Italy have a one tier ski instructor system and to get that one level you need to pass the Eurotest. The Austrian's have a multi-tiered system but you have to do a timed GS race in order to pass their equivalent of our level 3 whereas in our system you don't. In France a Level 4 with Eurotest can open a ski school but in Austria he couldn't. As I explained in my previous post, each country has their own ski instructor qualification system which has evolved over many decades and understandably there is a problem in getting them to all agree on one system and how they can integrate instructors' qualifications from other countries into their system in terms of recognition and the free movement of labour. The EU are putting pressure of the member states in this regard to come up with a solution as clearly there is a problem and at some point something will have to give, which may well mean that the highest courts will be involved.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@philwig,
http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/retribute

@waitrose, Level 3 Basi is the ISIA qualification. In Austria (within Land Salzburg) you have to do an L1 and then an L2 with the addition of the Alpin course to be ISIA. There is certainly no timed GS run.
However, each county set their own courses and modules within them which are then signed off by ski austria (oesv.at) so maybe some counties do.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@flangesax, I am sorry but you are wrong. In order to pass the Landeslehrer 2 with the Salzburger Ski School Association you have to do a "Riesentorlauf auf Zeit" which means a "timed Giant Slalom". Here is a link to their webpage which states this under "Landesskilehrer 2" - http://www.sbssv.at/de/allgemeine-kursinfos/pruefungen/

The ski instructor system in Austria is made up of 8 regional associations of which Salzburg are one. One of the other regional associations is Vienna and they require a timed GS for Landeslehrer 2; I know this because I am training with them at the moment trying to pass it!

I also don't think you used the word "retribute" in the right context and I would have thought "rebuttal" might have fitted better but then as I said I was not quite sure what you meant and so maybe "rebuttal" is incorrect. Either way, I am happy to stand corrected as I certainly don't profess to be not an expert in linguistics!
Confused
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@waitrose, as I understand it the Austrians have been told by the European Courts that they have to amend their rules on the Giant Slalom element which they have finally agreed to, so if what I have heard is correct then that would leave France with timed race type of qualification needed to teach etc......
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@waitrose, I think you will find that the requirement for the timed GS is part of the entry level for Staatlich Diplom-Geprüfte Skilehrer, not a barrier to obtaining the LL2. The link you have given does not describe any need for a timed GS in the sense of a Eurotest. For a start you only need to get a positive grade to pass, not be within a certain percentage of a racer's time. All trainees have to go through a GS style course, even Anwärters!

I know the Obmann for the SBSSV and his business partner (they run a large ski school) as they are long time friends of mine. Two of their sons have done a timed GS as they had to in order to gain acceptance onwards to the Staatlich path. Another one did not and has stopped at LL2. The youngest of the 4 boys is now training for GS as well as working to build up his skills in Freeride and Touring as his aim is to go on and be a Ski Bergfuhrer. However, he is currently only 17 so he has to wait yet another season before starting but he is using the time to gain more experience in back country and Freeride. The highest level is run by the national federation based out of Innsbruck not by the regional associations.

BTW there are 9 regional associations - one for each of the provinces (Bundesländer) and they all control the training up to LL2 in their areas and contribute to the national organisation for the highest level of training by providing trainers (National examiners). Both of my friends are/were national examiners (one has retired from all aspects of ski instructor training and concentrates on preparing youngsters for the exams instead).
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@ajc2260626, @Samerberg Sue, at the moment I am training with the Vienna ski instructor's association (WSSV) and you have to pass a timed GS course in order to pass Landeslehrer 2. It is not to the level of the Eurotest but it is timed and if you don't get within a certain percentage of the opener's time then you fail. I could not find this mentioned on their website and so I checked the Salzburg ski association's website and under Landeslehrer 2 it says "Reisentorlauf auf Zeit". Now my German is not that great but this does mean a timed GS run. This is not a part of the entry to the Staatlicher it is a requirement to become a Landeslehrer 2 which is the equivalent of the BASI 3 and gives the ISIA stamp. In order to become a Landeslehrer 1 which is the stage below there is a GS run but it is NOT timed and you are assessed on your technique only through the course. To become a Staatlicher, equivalent to BASI 4 you have to pass the Eurotest.

There are 8 regional ski instructor associations, here is a list of them http://skilehrer.at/index.php?id=landesverbaende

I don't know if they all have a requirement of a timed GS run to pass the Landeslehrer to ISIA level, but I will try and check and report back here, but certainly some do.

@ajc2260626, I will check what you say about the Austrians. To be clear, the Eurotest is only required to get the International Ski Teaching Diploma (ISTD) it is not required to become a Landesleher 2 (ISIA) in the Austrian system. As I have said earlier the Italians also have the requirement to pass the Eurotest in order to teach. The reason for this is because they only have one grade of instructor which is the same way the French do it. So in short, the French and Italian ski instructors are the same level as BASI 4 and Austrian Staatlicher which gives them all ISTD, they do not have the lower grades, just the 'top' grade.


Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 26-07-15 12:50; edited 1 time in total
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@waitrose, i might be getting my wires crossed like you say maybe the eurotest is to pass ISTD (basi lvl 3) rather than lvl 2..... what i was trying to say that i have heard on the grapevine that austria has vein told by the european courts that it must allow level 2's to teach regardless of any race gates level being passed because its against EU law..... which if this is the case it should follow that france will have to do the same. so if i am right that would mean that level 2 instructors can teach across europe rather than jus switzerland, italy etc
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Samerberg Sue, @waitrose, just goes to show one shouldn't believe everything one reads. You both sound so authoritative, I would have believed either of you! wink
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@waitrose, I stand corrected on the number of Landerverbänder, Burgenland's has obviously folded or been absorbed by Kärnten's, they were never very big any way so it makes sense.
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@ajc2260626, it is BASI Level 4 (plus Eurotest) that gives you ISTD not BASI Level 3 as you have stated. BASI Level 3 gives ISIA. For the record ISTD stands for International Ski Teaching Diploma and ISIA stands for International Ski Instructors' Association and both are designed to provide some sort of equivalence on a world level.

The rest of your statement is also not quite right for the following reasons:- the BASI system has 4 levels as does the Austrian system (3 levels in some of their regions) and their top levels all require the Eurotest and all therefore qualify for ISTD. The French and the Italian systems only have one level, which is equivalent to the BASI and Austrian systems' top level and therefore qualifies for ISTD. In order to allow for free movement of labour in the European Union, member states must recognise the qualifications of another member state but ONLY IF THERE IS NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE in the level of the examination. Therefore there is no significant difference between say a BASI Level 2 and an Austrian Anwaerter (their level 1) and so the Austrians are required to allow BASI Level 2s to work in their ski schools - which is in fact normally the case; I am a BASI Level 2 and I could work in Austria quite easily.

However, there is of course a very significant difference between me (BASI Level 2) and a BASI Level 4 with Eurotest (ISTD) and it follows that there is just the same difference between me and a French or Italian instructor who are all equivalent to BASI Level 4s with Eurotest (ISTD). Therefore because there is a significant difference in the required qualifications I am not allowed (and rightly so) to teach in France or Italy.

I believe, in the fullness of time, that there will be an agreement with all the member states of a European wide system, but the debate that is going on is that some member states think that there should be several grades of instructor whereas others think there should be just one. The European Union authorities are putting pressure on the member states to resolve this issue and ultimately it may require the highest European courts to decide.

By the way, there is no requirement for an Anwaerter (the Austrian level 1 equivalent to BASI Level 2) to pass a timed slalom.


@Hurtle, I agree with you 100% as there is so much mis-information bandied about on this whole subject, it is a bit like Chinese whispers. So you are right, you should not believe everything you read or hear - unless of course you read or hear it from me, ha ha ha! Very Happy


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sun 26-07-15 23:24; edited 1 time in total
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@waitrose, Laughing
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@waitrose, as far as I understand (as a punter) there are a few levels of "working":


Independent Instructor - ISTD

Owner of ski school and employs others - ISTD (in France only ISTDs that went through the french system)

Instructor/trainee employed by ski school - are all ESF instructors fully qualified? (and why don't I get a discount if a trainee is earning his quals on my back? if indeed non fully qualified instructors provide an inferior product). Why can't a British (make that Romanian or Dutch) school employ trainees working towards the ISTD under the BASI model, on French snow?
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@sugardaddy, I am interested and keen to answer your question but I am not 100% sure what you are asking. I have a good idea I think of what you are asking but as I am not 100% sure it would be wrong of me to assume so could you clarify please?
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This...

Quote:

The rest of your statement is also not quite right for the following reasons:- the BASI system has 4 levels as does the Austrian system (3 levels in some of their regions) and their top levels all require the Eurotest and all therefore qualify for ISTD. The French and the Italian systems only have one level, which is equivalent to the BASI and Austrian systems' top level and therefore qualifies for ISTD. In order to allow for free movement of labour in the European Union member states must recognise the qualifications of another member state but ONLY IF THERE IS NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE in the level of the examination. Therefore there is no significant difference between say a BASI Level 2 and an Austrian Anwaerter (their level 1) and so the Austrians are required to allow BASI Level 2s to work in their ski schools - which is in fact normally the case; I am a BASI Level 2 and I could work in Austria quite easily.

However, there is of course a very significant difference between me (BASI Level 2) and a BASI Level 4 with Eurotest (ISTD) and it follows that there is just the same difference between me and a French or Italian instructor who are all equivalent to BASI Level 4s with Eurotest (ISTD). Therefore because there is a significant difference in the required qualifications I am not allowed (and rightly so) to teach in France or Italy.


is a fantastic description of all the current goings on and is incredibly clear. And IMO totally agreeable as long as France and Italy really don't have any teachers teaching below that level or only those that are in training.

Just to stir the pot...
http://www.oesv.at/deroesv/landesskiverbaende.php

I'll have a chat with one of my mates tomorrow who is LL2. He never mentioned the timed GS but is a bit of a whizz and was mainly worried about the snowboarding! I'm interested how the GS is marked, whether 1 to 5 or as a time.

and @waitrose, don't panic about my grammar... I'm sure @philwig has a voice of his own to seek retribution.
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@waitrose,
I think it's quite clear. All this talk of L4, ISTD and GS runs is missing the point. It is agreed that in order to do #1 you have to pass the Eurotest (without going into it's relevance to the quality of the instruction that I'll receive)/ But:

1- why are French trainee instructors deemed superior to all other trainee instructors?

2- if L2 or L3 are truly inferior to a full cert, than so are French trainees. I haven't asked to see diplomas, but it seems that I've ripped off when and my safety has been endangered every time I haven't been out with a fully qualified instructor. Non? Or it may be that the "single tiered system" is not really a single tiered system, de facto

3- Why are French qualified full certs superior to L4s when setting up a school?

AFAIK a BASI L2 can work in a French school as a trainee towards the French full cert. Why can't he/she work in a Brit school, in France training towards BASI certification?
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