 Poster: A snowHead
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Twenty years after snowboarding began to gain mass popularity - snowboarders accounted for 29% of lift ticket sales in the USA last winter - four American resorts are literally maintaining their status as 'ski resorts'.
Snowboarding is still banned in Deer Valley and Alta (both in Utah), Taos in New Mexico, and Mad River Glen in Vermont.
This article by Doug Alden of Associated Press in Salt Lake Tribune reviews the varied reasons that skiers have these mountains to themselves:
- The one-time owner of Mad River Glen got mad with some snowboarders who didn't agree with her policy of banning snowboarders from its historic single chairlift and insulted her in a shop. The ski area is now a cooperatively-owned business, and its hundreds of shareholders have decided to continue the policy.
- Deer Valley just seems to be too posh, sophisticated and exclusive to want to know!
- Alta, a mecca for powder skiers, first introduced its skier-only policy in the early 1980s and has maintained its stance despite its recent lift-link with Snowbird. This is a particularly interesting case in point, since the most sophisticated development work in snowboarding in the 1970s - on the Winterstick, made in Salt Lake City, was done on local slopes.
- Taos seemingly just likes a 'pure skiing' image, and is sticking with that for the moment.
There's now speculation as to which of these four areas might blink first and join the hundreds of US (and thousands of worldwide) ski areas that adopt no discrimination.
As a skier, would you visit a ski-only resort as a matter of specific choice?
As a boarder, would you like to see snowboard-only mountains?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Out of interest.... is skiing simply defined as using 2 planks and not 1?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Probably not. I'm not aware that mono-skiing is banned in any of the above resorts.
There's also the Skwal, a kind of monoski-snowboard hybrid, that might be allowed because the stance is forward rather than sideways.
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Just wondered since I like skiboarding which of course is effectively short skis with no poles.
I can understand distaste for snowboarders, I think it would be heaven to ski without finding seated snowboarders over the brow of every hill you come to! Oh and the sound is awful! 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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My sister lives and skis in the States and her main gripe is the amount of soft snow scraped off steeper pitches by boarders side-slipping on one edge.
The counter-argument is that boarders buy lots of lift tickets and hence maintain the viability of ski areas (her regular one is Jiminy Peak). Presumably that economic argument is a key reason that so few mountains ban snowboarding, though it might be illegal in Europe to do so, under anti-discimination legislation.
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I was skiing at a small NH area yesterday and heard to Mad River Glen stories while riding the lift. FWIW, MRG is owned by a cooperative of skiers and is a VERY traditional, old time New England ski area. One story: At a recent share holders meeting someone got up and said we should at least talk about snowboarders. He said he wasn't in favor of allowing boarding but thought the cooperative should at least discuss the issue. After a long pause someone in the back said "get the rope." The second stroy was about the person who owned MRG prior to the cooperative. A snowboarder showed up, the owner said what are you doing with that, the boarder said I want to board this mountain. The owner said you're not boarding my mountain. The boarder was Howard Dean, governor of Vermont. The cooperative has an old single chair which is nearing it's end of life, they've decided when it was time they had to replace the old lift, it would be replaced with another single. MRG is reputed to offer very good expert level skiing when snow conditions are good.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
My sister lives and skis in the States and her main gripe is the amount of soft snow scraped off steeper pitches by boarders side-slipping on one edge.
The counter-argument is that boarders buy lots of lift tickets and hence maintain the viability of ski areas (her regular one is Jiminy Peak). Presumably that economic argument is a key reason that so few mountains ban snowboarding, though it might be illegal in Europe to do so, under anti-discimination legislation. |
I dont really do steeps, but I have seen snowboarders scrape moguls making it rather more likely that I go on my behind when i go after them
I dont think snowboarders really maintain the viability of a hill. I would imagine that if the world banned snowboarding, most snowboarders would just turn to skis as opposed to giving up downhill snow sports totally.
I dont really think having exclusive resorts is a good way to go, the mountains should be for everyone to enjoy. There just perhaps are some piste use concepts that the various users need to better appreciate.
Adam
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| buns wrote: |
| Out of interest.... is skiing simply defined as using 2 planks and not 1? |
In france, I believe there is still no such direct qualification as a "surf" (snowboard) instructor. Any ESF Ski instructor can teach snowboarding, even if they havenever even stood on one!
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| buns wrote: |
I dont think snowboarders really maintain the viability of a hill.
Adam |
Are you kidding? There are not many resorts that could afford to turn away 30% of their customers (who will go to the resort in the next valley that welcomes them) and survive.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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It seems to me the objections to snowboarders boil down to two things:
1. Too many of them sit in the middle of the piste just over a ridge
2. Too many scrape off the surface by side slipping
Both of these are surely a question of education? Number 1 is easy and instructors should probably din it into their pupils' heads from the first minute of the first lesson. Number 2 I have always put down to the fact that snowboarders can generally "get down" steeper slopes with less technique than a skier would need, consequently they end up doing more side slipping. Again isn't this down to instructors to try and a) instill a sense of actual ability and b) a sense of responsibility to other users? Obviously assuming said snowboarders actually take more than one lesson... Maybe it's also to do with the fact that it seems that snowboarding tends to predominantly attract the teens and early twenties, many (not all) of whom tend to suffer the arrogance of youth and haven't yet learnt not to overestimate their abilities?
A good snowboarder carving properly is a joy to behold, but IME it is noticeable that there are comparatively fewer of them than good skiers
As an aside, one of the most encouraging things I've seen in a ski resort was an elderly chap getting on the shuttle bus in Courchevel with his over 72s free season pass in one hand and his snowboard in the other. Good on him!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Diarmuid wrote: |
| buns wrote: |
I dont think snowboarders really maintain the viability of a hill.
Adam |
Are you kidding? There are not many resorts that could afford to turn away 30% of their customers (who will go to the resort in the next valley that welcomes them) and survive. |
I didnt simply say that, you cant quote that because you have taken it out of context! I said that I believed snowboarders would likely take up an alternative downhill technique were they not allowed to snowboard....
That doesnt seem an unreasonable assumption.....
Adam
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You know it makes sense.
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The only thing I have about snowboarding as opposed to stupid practices which is not confined to one set of snow users , is that as a downhill tool, skis and snowboards aren't really compatable. If you are anywhere that needs height or extreme care the two don't mix. For this reason it is unlikely you would have a guided group with both sets of users.
Other than that I like seeing a board really laying it down on the piste and don't like to see side slippers but everyone is guilty of that and in some cases it is a very desirable technique.
Would I go to a resort that banned Snowboarders? Sure!
Would I like skiing to be banned in a resort? Don't be rediculous..!! Which is what this policy is bordering on IMV... ha!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
If you are anywhere that needs height or extreme care the two don't mix.
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...or if you're on a T-bar
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Poster: A snowHead
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| though it might be illegal in Europe to do so, under anti-discimination legislation. |
Surely not! If I own a field, presumably I have the right to hire it out to footballers, but ban rugby on the grounds (!) (if I needed any) that the field would get too cut up.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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easiski, true but if they did...he he 
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You know what, there are plenty of other resorts in the US if you want to snowboard. why get worked up about 4 where they decide against it?
Bunsm yes, skiboards are allowed in Alta, but given the snow there, I would suggest that you might want somethings longer/fatter.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| though it might be illegal in Europe to do so, under anti-discimination legislation. |
Surely not! If I own a field, presumably I have the right to hire it out to footballers, but ban rugby on the grounds (!) (if I needed any) that the field would get too cut up. |
Not quite a pure analogy. Taos Ski Valley does not own the land where its lifts and trails are situated, merely leases it from the US Forest Service. Alta and Deer Valley are probably in the same situation.
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A snowboard is inherently less stable on ice than a pair of skis, because only having one edge to grip with (as compared to two) is a huge disadvantage. (That's why no snowboarder will ever beat a skier of similar ability down an icy race-course.) And that is why the sound of a snowboarder skidding on ice is so scary.
Here in Taos, opinions are divided. Some business owners think that the tourist business here is slowly dying without snowboarding. But most locals I have spoken to are happy about the ban.
I don't think snowboarders sitting beneath a blind lip is that much of a problem. It could just as easily be a class of 5-year-olds going slowly, or an 8-stone woman who has just fallen. You should always take it easy over blind lips.
By the way, mono-skiing is indeed allowed in Taos; haven't seen any Skwals yet...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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During the 3 years that I've been skiing I have had many "incidents" involving skiers (near misses, selfishness etc) but I can't think of any with snowboarders. Nothing wrong with boarders and even if they scrape the snow it makes the surface more interesting to ski on.
I'm a 2 plank man btw.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I think that the snow-scraping thing is inherent to the boards not the boarder. If a skier side slips he can do it in a very controlled fashion by varying between hard on the edge and slightly flatter. Because he is standing on two thin planks instead of one thick one snow can escape between the two. A boarder, having only one edge to use has to dig it in hard and snow cannot escape and forms a wedge under the board and tends to get dragged down.
I also hate that noise especially when it is behind me.
My wife and I ski but two of my sons are going over to the dark side this season so we will see whether I am more sympathetic afterwards.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
| two snowboarders lying down on the piste beneath me smoking something other than tobacco |
Were they inhaling?
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David Goldsmith, I didn't stop in mid air to find out 
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You know it makes sense.
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That's a shame. It's quite amusing watching someone trying to inhale a kipper.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Interestingly enough, when I stayed with Mark Warner last week, no snowboarders were allowed out with the ski hosting. It was only because I was in the advanced group by myself, that my friend who was boarding was allowed to come out with me. This was because "many skiers don't like to come out with boarders".
Similarly on the last day, again when I was in a group with just myself and the host, the host was not allowed to board, even though I had absolutely no objection and was quite happy with it.
It does seem a little crazy...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Appologies for the long post
hmm moguls, not designed for boards thats for sure. Not sure what skiiers see in them either to be honest.
my 0.02c as I see it as a boarder in my mid 30's, learning to board has been one of the most rewarding things I have ever done, it was however not easy! my stages were:
course of 5 lessons at Tamworth
Courchevel
La Plagne
Mammoth
Les Deux Alps
Sestriere
Arinsal
La Plagne (this year!)
some of you may be aghast at this, but I did hit a mogul field on that 1st holiday (by accident), it scared the life out of me and I swore I would never hit one again out of choice. I suspect this is true of most novice boarders (and many novice skiiers). A number of seasons later I now class myself as a competent boarder although you wont find me in the 'park looking cool. and I now look back at those holidays and consider the runs we did in a different light, they are nowhere near as daunting. non mogulled blacks pose no problem, neither does an icy piste (you'll still probably hear me coming!) But I'm wary of slagging novices who end up side slipping or edging on steep runs. As I still remember when I was there scared half to death. I have now also developed a little more common sense regarding the use of speed in appropriate places (must be getting old). A blind summit on a public piste is no place to do 150Mph. as has been said before there could be anything over the brow! A schoolmate of mine found the same soon after passing his driving test, hump backed bridge + too much velocity + traffic lights on red the other side = a mess.
That said I always have kept to the side of the piste when sitting down (try standing on a slope with a board strapped to your feet, you'll soon see why we sit down!) there are enough warnings in resorts about it! 
Oh one skiier gripe please dont crowd around the brow of a hill so I am forced to unclip and walk through a group of you chatting!
the misquote austin powers Father: " theres two things in this world I cant stand, People who look down on other peoples snowsports...and Snowbladers!"
I'll get me coat. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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On the subject of moguls.... if you dont know a resort and are just exploring, you can find yourself on top of a mogulled run pretty sharpish and have no bail out.... now I love moguls (though on a steep blacks- it can have me on the floor easily!), but a boarder could come across this and be snookered!
Is there any way of looking at a grooming report or another way of somehow marking a mogul run which has no bail out?
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Martin Bell, quite right, Taos, Alta and DV do not own the land.
However, they also don't discriminate against anyone for what they are, merely against a behaviour. Anyone can ski. *
Nike and Burton were two of the larger corporate backers of an advertising effort in the late '90s that attempted to use anti-racism sloganeering to reverse those policies. Those adverts diluted the true definition of discrimination to further a commercial goal and I was not the only one to be incensed at the instigators.
David Goldsmith, wasn't there also an issue at MRG of snowboarder (pole-less) dismounts causing the lift cable to slip off the wheel? Back in the day,that is?
*If that smacks of other recent 'alternate lifestyles' public relations campaigns, they do (now) have medical evidence on their side.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Martin Bell wrote: |
A snowboard is inherently less stable on ice than a pair of skis, because only having one edge to grip with (as compared to two) is a huge disadvantage. (That's why no snowboarder will ever beat a skier of similar ability down an icy race-course.)
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But aren't the skiers virtually on one of their edges only anyway?
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| slikedges wrote: |
| But aren't the skiers virtually on one of their edges only anyway? |
I don't think that I spend much time at 100% on one edge, there's normally at least a small proportion of my weight on my inside edge . If my outside edge looses grip I also have an inside edge to balance on until I can regain my outside edge - presumbably with a board if you loose grip with your toe or your heel-side edge you hit the floor?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| slikedges wrote: |
| Martin Bell wrote: |
A snowboard is inherently less stable on ice than a pair of skis, because only having one edge to grip with (as compared to two) is a huge disadvantage. (That's why no snowboarder will ever beat a skier of similar ability down an icy race-course.)
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But aren't the skiers virtually on one of their edges only anyway? |
Even if they are, they have built-in redundancy 
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rob@rar.org.uk, not if you're relaxed and prepared, you just go into an oversteer/understeer skid (even at the angles illustrated above . . . if you're good enough . . . not me I hasten  )
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FAQ
too many folk get a bit of confidence and speed and think they are in control when by the stiffness of their bodies they definately are not and wouldnt be capable of stopping quickly.. and the sitting over the brow of the hill thing.. grrr to that too 
I think that in most on piste conditions that us punters rely on, there's little difference between a well ridden board or skis though I would say that it's easier to disguise poor skills on skis than it is on a board.
