 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Carrying a beep but mates weren't. If he hadn't raised hid pole me might not be here now.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Christ, I am so pumped on adrenalin from watching that.
I'm not going to list all the things it's obvious they should have done, I'ld sound like I was lecturing and being holier than thou, when in reality in the past I have gone out equally unprepared.
I'm just pleased James got out alive, that he was lucky he was visible from the surface, and that at least one of his mates had a shovel. In the comments on YouTube James acknowledges that there is nothing to boast about in the groups performance and states that he posted the film as a cautionary tale for others, and I find that admirable as they are bound to get a little toasted by the denizens of some web forums.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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what a very lucky man
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A 'sage' told me to chuck away my sticks if stuck in an avalanche as may get caught on trees and hold me down. That is one piece of advice I will be ignoring! Never quite worked out how I would I manage that anyway.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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In BC at least most back country riders would not be using ski straps, so hanging on to your poles may be a challenge.
As for the rest of that, I'm sure they don't need me to point out what went wrong. They were lucky more of them weren't in that terrain trap.
Sorry to hear about Gmoser jnr.
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I loved the way they took the opportunity to poke him with the probe even tho' they knew exactly where he was.
@hawkesbaynz, strictly speaking the advice is correct - poles can do you a fair amount of damage in a fall. To avoid the hook up risk I use Leki breakaway 'trigger' and 's' fixtures.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Lucky muppet.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@hawkesbaynz, A good tip is to never have your hands in the straps while going offpiste. Makes it much easier to get rid of your sticks in case of an avi and also means that you will not damage your arms for example in a tree or poor snow.
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That really was frightening how deep he was buried 
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You know it makes sense.
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| Woosh wrote: |
| @hawkesbaynz, A good tip is to never have your hands in the straps while going offpiste. Makes it much easier to get rid of your sticks in case of an avi and also means that you will not damage your arms for example in a tree or poor snow. |
I hear this kind of advice from random people but no one seems to be able to produce the data that supports this as sound advice. I've also heard advice to the contrary. Again, no data to support it's veracity.
Does anyone have any evidence either way?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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The best practice advice seems to be to swim to the surface and keep yourself up. Poles could prevent you from doing that plus make clearing an air space in front of your face impossible. In forest skiing I have twice had a pole smashed from my hand this season, if a strap had been caught up it may have damaged my arm.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Just think of times when you crash in porridge snow and how hard it is to free your skis, if your pole is trapped under your body it can effectively trap that arm. Sometimes I have needed a free hand to release a binding.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Zero_G wrote: |
... I hear this kind of advice from random people but no one seems to be able to produce the data that supports this as sound advice. I've also heard advice to the contrary. Again, no data to support it's veracity.
Does anyone have any evidence either way? |
For avalanches, which you're asking about, it's a fair point, although you'd already not have the straps because there may be trees (and tree wells) out there.
I have seen no data either way. The logic of not using straps seems sound to me. Bear in mind that you're not going to keep the thing in your hand, you're going to have it hanging by the strap. As the snow sets up, those straps may prevent you from doing what you need to do with them.
Clearly in this case his pole saved him.... so if you're planning to ride into a terrain trap without airbag, without transceiver support, in a bunch, and with incompetent buddies, it is safer to keep those straps on 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Zero_G, ...spot on that you call for evidence.
This is an amazing tale of luck. Serendipity. He survived by good fortune, not by skill or good strategy.
The key things to learn from this are not about whether you use pole straps or not. These key things have been well pointed out by some of the posts: ignoring Avalanche warning level which should have set alarm bells ringing and determined where they skied; ignoring signs from the pack; carrying and knowing how to use beacons; etc.
Don't forget Touching the Void - Joe Simpson survived by an amazing set of coincidences. He puts the cause of the accident down to carrying insufficient gas - a cause set in place before they left base camp. A UIAGM guide I know says most people die in Avalanche because of something they did hours or days earlier - ignoring the meteo; rushing to summit in the first sun after two weeks of wind and snow; going in the wrong group where a gung ho mentality takes over; and so on.
This story is an amazing story of luck, and I a very glad James Mort survived. He should change his name from Mort to Vie.
On relatively trivial issues such as 'should you use pole strap?' - sometimes such things can play a role - I know many an ice axe lost at altitude (good job I always carry a camp nano spare) because someone wasn't using a leash. Andreas Franssen always carried an axe as well as a pole. But then people I know have been saved from a fall on the steep precisely because they almost dropped a pole but managed to flip it back up into their hand using the strap. And in a big slide I have heard of packs being ripped off let alone poles. The upshot? Get into a dangerous situation and loads of trivial things can come into play - the form of grip in the bottom of your boots; the anti-fog coating on your goggles; the quality of the insulation in your gloves. Detail can count. But the major thing is what put you at risk - and over the edge - in the first place.
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SO scary...
How the guy managed to find 'up' and get his pole into the air I have no clue...
Truly sobering.
They should play this video and ask questions about what they did wrong at the end of every avalance training course. Once the heart-rate of the examinees is up and the adrenaline is pumping, they hopefully will be able to answer [a long list], and they will associate the answers during the quiz with the experience of the avalanche if it ever happens to them. Hopefully then if they're ever in the same scenario [and shi**ing their pants] they will snap to the right actions without delay...
Thank you so much @Karl Marx for sharing.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
They should play this video and ask questions about what they did wrong at the end of every avalance training course.
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Yes, this!
And for the same reason, I kind of think it'd be useful to mention here some of the things they did wrong. I don't think it needs to come across as holier than though, but there might be mistakes that others have spotted in the video that I haven't...I'd rather be learning from someone else's mistakes than have to make my own.
So there's a load of things they should have done before the incident happened, things like: checking avalanche bulletins, paying attention to the snowpack making whumping noises (mentioned in James's blog), having the correct avalanche kit, skiing individually rather than all at once in a group. But there are some interesting things in the rescue as well, like: having practised getting your kit out of your bag (so you don't put the shovel together while still in the bag, in this case), keeping gloves on when digging to avoid cold hands, and possibly communicating clearly with all rescuers (I wasn't clear if the second guy was actually being helpful or getting in the way). There must be other stuff that they should do differently if they had their time again...
I'm also not sure whether you should keep skis on while searching (probably not in most cases, but I wondered whether it might have helped in the kind of fluffy snow in the vid?), and whether the third skier who went to seek out ski patrol would have done better by phoning them and then helping dig? And I can never remember how you're supposed to dig someone out, whether you're meant to dig above them or below (suspect it's below?).
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I'm Australian and can understand the excitement that these guys were going through when doing the run. It is a bit like the overseas visitors we get to our Australian beaches and the visitors just run into the surf and need rescuing (it happens every day at Bondi Beach where I am from). In Australia, we rarely have these snow conditions so we are just not educated on avalanches and how dangerous they can be.
Glad these guys got out of it safe and a good reminder for everyone. Too bad about the Australian killed in the avalanche in St Anton which happened when I was there.
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| ChrisWo wrote: |
| ... I kind of think it'd be useful to mention here some of the things they did wrong. I don't think it needs to come across as holier than though, but there might be mistakes that others have spotted in the video that I haven't...I'd rather be learning from someone else's mistakes than have to make my own. |
I guess that's why they posted it.
The basic process is well documented elsewhere. Precisely what would work best in a specific circumstance is hindsight dependent though... so you can't fairly read it backwards, although I think studying incidents is still very useful.
Once they could see where the guy was, then I would say that the priority (all other things being equal) would be to dig. There's no way you can get help in quick enough which could dig any faster than three fit Ozzie guys, and time matters if there's an asphyxiation risk and you only have one victim. Once you get his airway clear you could worry about what to do next, which may depend on his state.
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They were out on a 4/5 day. They ignored the whump sounds. Only one of the party had a beacon ( the one that got buried )... Pure luck that he's still alive.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Apart from having the presence of mind to get that ski pole in the air, did they do anything right? So lucky.
I'll be the first to confess that in 93/94 when I worked a ski season I skied off piste a lot without any gear and any real knowledge. I still don't think - for a moment - I'd have skied that line, like that in those conditions.
Obviously they should have had proper kit but even without the whumping the angle/terrain trap/ risk level 4 made that line unacceptable.
I notice in his write-up he talks about "in-bounds" which suggests a level of ignorance about European skiing and avalanche control.
Incidentally - what do people think about taking skis off so early? I know it turned out that he was close by and skis-off was fine but I think I'd have kept them on for mobility in that snow until I knew where I was heading.
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I saw someone fall, landing face down in about 6 inches of snow with her ski poles crossed underneath her. Because her wrists were through the straps, she couldn't move her hands/arms and hence was unable to get herself up.
The fresh snow being only a few inches deep, she was able to turn her head to breath while someone came to her aid but had it been a few inches deeper, things would have been somewhat more urgent.
I rarely use my pole straps now.
I think the most important point here is the one @valais2 makes - once disaster happens, matters become chaotic, where life or death may be decided by a skipole, the kind of skis or bindings and their exact setting, the shape of a helmet or back pack, by 3 inches to the left... or right - such detail cannot be planned for so becomes irrelevant 'chance'. What matters is the sequence of decisions that took you to a place where such tiny matters acquired such exaggerated importance.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@admin,I totally agree regarding straps. When I first started skiing off piste a few tumbles (ok, on most damn turns) led to an arm often being trapped underneath me. Couple this with the odd tree collision and I never use straps off piste these days too.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
Couple this with the odd tree collision and I never use straps off piste these days too.
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I was finding that slipping into my straps as I ski away from the lift was so ingrained that I was forgetting NOT to use them off piste. So I've recently made the switch to not using them at all on piste or off piste. I really don't miss them.
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I recently switched to not using them on or off piste, for the same reason - so I don't accidentally use them out of habit when I go off piste. Hard habit to break, though. I did an off-piste course and the business about tree collisions was mentioned as a reason for not using straps, but this idea about having my arms trapped under me in deep snow is even more worrying. Maybe I'll just cut the straps off and be done with it!
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You know it makes sense.
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The only straps I routinely use are the ones on my touring poles.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Scarpa, that's not the story @Kooky tells!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@admin,  Some mornings you just can't be bothered to gnaw through the leather bonds... Emo Philips.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@admin, sure you don´t want to be in the same chalet as us at the Bash? I can bring a variety of straps for your delectation, which is your colour of preference?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Kooky wrote: |
| @admin, sure you don´t want to be in the same chalet as us at the Bash? I can bring a variety of straps for your delectation, which is your colour of preference? |
As long as they're ones that don't leave any Marx.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Especially Red Marx. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@geepee, Karl? I do draw the line at sharing with DG, my masochism has certain bounds 
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I try to carve my turns these days to avoid leaving tell tale Skid Marx.
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