 Poster: A snowHead
|
As an offshoot on another thread.
When I started skiing in the mid 80's, the runs were graded
Green, easy beginners slopes, (ususally groomed daily)
Blue, moderate slopes, intermediate (Groomed every other day)
Red, difficult, advanced (hardly ever groomed)
Black, very difficult, expert, (never groomed)
In many resorts these days, every single marked piste is groomed and a confident beginner can easily get down a groomed black run after 1 week on skis.
In Grandvalira, Andorra last year and in the Sella Ronda on the birthday bash I came across no pistes that could be rated more difficult than a blue by 1980s standards, even in the three valleys, challenging "expert" pistes are few and far between, Grand couloir is interesting but very short.
Whilst most of us like the groomed pistes, It would add to a resorts appeal if they allowed a handful of pistes that are not primary routes or if they are paralleled by other pistes, to go natural, to give the more advanced or adventurous skiers a challenge without having to go offpiste.
There are those that would suggest that I go to a resort that has ungroomed pistes, but I prioritise skiing with good people rather than the best skiing, the likes of the Sella ronda could easily have a number of natural pistes without detracting from its appeal.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
I've done a couple of good itinerary runs in saas fee. Marked yellow and left ungroomed. There are about 8 of them, though some are only short sections between runs, others allow almost top to bottom descents. Everything else here is groomed, but is mostly marked red, not many black runs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
This is where I think that the North American idea of 'in bounds' rather then on piste vs off piste is a real winner. Whistler for example has an easy route down from every lift, but at the same to time you can pick any route you like down, and its all avalanche protected and patrolled.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Pila is a small resort in Italy and only has 3 black runs. 2 are never pisted and the 3rd is very short black leading to a red that is pisted. Loads of easy reds that are flattened every night. Being old, doggy knees and unfit I like the Pisteing.
Whistler does Piste Black runs though not often, the double black diamonds never. They do not even Piste the Blues that often.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| tangowaggon wrote: |
| ... It would add to a resorts appeal if they allowed a handful of pistes that are not primary routes or if they are paralleled by other pistes, to go natural, to give the more advanced or adventurous skiers a challenge without having to go offpiste. |
I agree that it would be nice to see more itinerary routes (red as well as black) which are generally not pisted. However, a little confused by the notion that advanced skiers can't be challenged when skiing on prepared pistes, of whatever grade. I can easily challenge myself to ski at the limit of my ability on just about any grade piste, even on a green run if I choose to ski on one leg or a similarly challenging.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
As rob@rar, any run can be challenging if you want it to be.
Try doing different ski drills ( plenty of vids on youtube if unsure what to practice ) many experts will do drills on reds because the drills themselves are more than challenging enough.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I know in Val Thorens that (with the exception of the most popular runs or thoroughfare runs) a lot of runs are only piste-bashed every other day, and there's a few blacks that never get bashed (cascades comes to mind).
| tangowaggon wrote: |
In Grandvalira, Andorra last year and in the Sella Ronda on the birthday bash I came across no pistes that could be rated more difficult than a blue by 1980s standards. |
I think generally that Grandvalira is more of a beginners/intermediates area - although saying that, surely the black run they use for the World Cup run is considered tougher than a 1980's blue!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| tangowaggon wrote: |
| Whilst most of us like the groomed pistes, It would add to a resorts appeal if they allowed a handful of pistes that are not primary routes or if they are paralleled by other pistes, to go natural, to give the more advanced or adventurous skiers a challenge without having to go offpiste. |
That's what I like about North American resorts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Quote: |
However, a little confused by the notion that advanced skiers can't be challenged when skiing on prepared pistes, of whatever grade. I can easily challenge myself to ski at the limit of my ability on just about any grade piste, even on a green run if I choose to ski on one leg or a similarly challenging.
|
Mmm, I think it not unreasonable to sometimes enjoy a challenge without making it artificial , it would be a little dull to have to do various drills all week however beneficial to ones skiing if one was not specifically on a race camp or something.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| tangowaggon wrote: |
As an offshoot on another thread.
When I started skiing in the mid 80's, the runs were graded
|
maybe you've just improved too much?
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
When I was a nipper, we had to wake up before we went to bed, eat coal for breakfast and walk 8 miles to get to the outhouse... 
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
@tangowaggon, my memory is different. When I did my first black run, with an instructor in Austria, it was long and moderately steep but most definitely pisted. That must have been in the 80s. No doubt there were some "never pisted" but it certainly wasn't invariably the case. There are two "never pisted" blacks, as well as a long itinerary in Les Saisies - not a resort noted for challenging skiing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
@Alastair Pink, 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| T Bar wrote: |
| Mmm, I think it not unreasonable to sometimes enjoy a challenge without making it artificial , it would be a little dull to have to do various drills all week however beneficial to ones skiing if one was not specifically on a race camp or something. |
Doesn't have to be drills, just skiing well and to your limit. Cleanly carved turns on a steep blue run, good short radius turns down the fall line on a red, narrow corridor run at speed down a black can all challenge good skiers. Skiing on piste doesn't have to be unchallenging.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Alastair Pink, speed098,
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
The issue is that andorra and the sella ronda is some of the least challenging skiing in Europe. Skiing Tignes and Val Thorens there seem to be more difficult runs available and what runs there are tend to be graded lower than andorra or Italy.
On one run in andorra we pootled down it hopping off the odd bump, only to realise at the bottom it was graded black.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
There are quite a few ungroomed black itineraries in the Espace Killy, and several marked blacks which are never or very rarely pisted.
I think La Face is the only one which is pisted every day.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Quote: |
Cleanly carved turns on a steep blue run, good short radius turns down the fall line on a red
|
This is plenty challenge for me; I still struggle to avoid smudging turns even on a blue run and my "short radius turns down the fall line" are very much hit and miss too. But I'd prefer to get some of that right, some of the time, than "get down" a difficult black run with hurting knees, grateful just to have stayed on my feet.
Same with sailing, I'd prefer a slightly technical challenge - barber hauling a head sail to get half a knot more speed off the wind, trimming a spinnaker just right, rather than screaming along under heavily reefed sails in a gale, one bit of wire away from disaster.
I'm not very good at either skiing or trimming sails - but I like to think about the theory and try to get it right, and enjoy having someone more experienced to point me in the right direction.
And then, with the sailing or the skiing, having a nice sit in the sun with a glass of something!
When I started sailing I thought I'd enjoy the challenge of some ocean racing, changing head sails three times a night, etc etc. But I now know I wouldn't, not at all, though I would cope if required if bad weather or gear failure left me with no choice.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
And whilst some of the blacks were posted in the 3vs last week most of them (at least from the top of 1850) weren't. Cmbe de pylons certainly hadn't been posted as far as I could see all week, and both times i went down it, once on my own with an annoying binding release under the bubble, and once with both my juniors the bumps were pretty well formed. Grand coulior was also good fun with my girls.
In fact i thought the bashing wasn't particularly evident even on the reds.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Alpe D'Huez may not be thought the punchiest resort, but it didn't pay to go down The Tunnel asleep, I remember.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Pam w, as Neal MacDonald said (look him up) a boat is at its fastest just before its mast breaks, later lost his mast in Southern Ocean as a watch leader for Ellen McArthur!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
There has to be more to colour than how often its groomed.
I think in the 80s you had crappy skis, so you may have had to work harder.
I suspect piste bashers have advanced and can now groom things they couldn't.
And I suspect that artificial snow production means you need to be able to bash the blacks to move snow where needed. Not that much artificial snow in the 80s.
There should be a scientific way to allocate colour based on gradient, attitude to the sun, probability if ice, width of piste, length, mogulness and groomedness but then you might change colour through the day...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
So skiing has become more accessible for all grades of skiers, I don't think this is a bad thing. Not everyone wants to be challenged by a scary slope, some of us just like to cruise about.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| queen bodecia wrote: |
| So skiing has become more accessible for all grades of skiers, I don't think this is a bad thing. Not everyone wants to be challenged by a scary slope, some of us just like to cruise about. |
I am not sure that skiing has become more accessible just that black runs have become more accessible and possibly more dangerous as more inexperience skiers fly around on steeper elopes to everyones danger whereas before the lack of grooming would force them to keep their speed down.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
@polc1410,
There was nothing crappy about 80's skis into 90's skis just because they where not carving/parabolic/hourglass did not mean that a skier could not carve with them and you could go pretty darn quick to boot. Yes you had to be a better skier to carve them than you have to be to carve modern skis.
Piste bashers could handle pretty steep slopes back then, I stand to be corrected but they have not had any radical design improvements that have significantly increased the gradients they could be used on.
Not everyone wants perfectly groomed steeper runs but equally not everyone wants bumps or off-piste, resorts have the unenviable task of trying to please everyone all of the time, something that is almost impossible to do no matter how large the ski area.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
I am not sure that skiing has become more accessible
|
I'm sure it has, but more because (in the UK at any rate) the much greater affluence and growth of cheap flights etc now means that many families can afford a ski holiday whereas in the past it was just for the elite.
And I think the present situation is much preferable. It's still not a terribly dangerous holiday, either and so much more stimulating and worthwhile for families than sitting on an absurdly crowded beach.
It's easy to overplay the risks. For a few weeks, in a few places, there's an increased risk of a collision. But most fatal accidents (as opposed to inconvenient minor injuries) are the result of a crash into a tree, or rock, unaided by anybody else.
Avalanche/off piste risk is another matter entirely; some people do seem convinced that it's much safer than skiing on piste but I think they are probably kidding themselves. No shortage of minor inconvenient injuries off piste, either, come to that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
@tangowaggon, If you only find "...Grand couloir is interesting but very short..." then I'd suggest it's you that's got too good for piste skiing and not the pistes that have got too easy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
What they said, really. You're probably suffering from two things:
(1) The sport is more accessible than it was.
(2) You get better as you get more experience.
Piste grading was always a mixed bag. All resorts have "black" runs, but many of them were never "hard".
I think North America has this dialled as people have said. Many places will groom one half of a run and leave the other with bumps on it. Or ride Snowbird, where the pistes are only the way to get in and out of the cliff lines. Or go to Taos, where everything except the bunny hill is likely to be bumps. Most places I ride, there's no one on the harder runs at all - all the tourists are crowded into the same one or two runs which they session all day. You can always find an out of condition bump run if you're not getting enough challenge.
Occasionally I do wonder what learners get from sideslipping down expert runs - they would probably learn more quicker from attempting things where they can turn; sideslipping-practice just makes you good at sideslipping.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Quote: |
Many places will groom one half of a run and leave the other with bumps on it.
|
I can see the sense in this with a wide run, with just half pisted all the way down. But the idea of leaving "the bottom half" or "the top half" unpisted seems completely potty; that way nobody is really happy!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Indeed: they groom the left or right side, not the top or bottom, for the reason stated.
It also means you can still use the run sensibly when it's out of condition.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
@speed098,
| Quote: |
Piste bashers could handle pretty steep slopes back then, I stand to be corrected but they have not had any radical design improvements that have significantly increased the gradients they could be used on. |
Bigger engines and winches come to mind
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Skiing has definitely got a lot easier. The resorts have responded to the demands of most of their customers who do not like moguls, narrow runs or low capacity lifts. Litigation,safety and insurance have also probably demanded safer runs. Most blacks are now winched, tillers are much more sophiscated and effective, busy pistes have been widened and realigned and of course lifts and snow making have become more industrialised. Skis have also got easier and therefore faster demanding smoother pistes and so it continues.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Quote: |
I'm sure it has, but more because (in the UK at any rate) the much greater affluence and growth of cheap flights etc now means that many families can afford a ski holiday whereas in the past it was just for the elite.
|
Yeah I agree that skiing is more accessible from an affordability point of view I was referring to @queen bodecia, point about the grooming making the skiing more accessible compared with the 80's as in the original post. I dont think grooming balck runs make it significantly more accessible , just makes some of the steeper runs more dangerous cos people ski them faster,
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
Many places will groom one half of a run and leave the other with bumps on it.
|
I can see the sense in this with a wide run, with just half pisted all the way down. But the idea of leaving "the bottom half" or "the top half" unpisted seems completely potty; that way nobody is really happy! |
I'm flabbergasted that anyone could have thought that I meant that the top or bottom half of a wide piste should be left ungroomed 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
It is not all about skiers/equipment getting better, it can be the resort responding to mass market requirements.
For example Saas-Fee mentioned in the second post had genuinely 'lost' 4 black runs due to Global warming. The runs, 3 in the Camel area, were based purely on glacier which has retreated in the last 30 years, so the pistes can no longer be constructed. Other runs have just 'disappeared' from the piste map, and become locals only routes. The glacier in general is retreating/thinning fast, with the tongue of the main glacier now stopping 300m short of the glacier lake, which it reached 30 years ago.
The other big change was the ownership and management of the lift company, which has become much more profit rather than skier based. Piste preparation is now appears to be based on the minimal they can get away with, rather than providing the best service for the users. I have regularly heard 'We are saving that for the high season' type comments.
I like with the North American model of resort, where everything is in bounds, and the same lift allows access to a green/blue path/piste, and double black diamonds. The Whistler double black diamond runs are far more extreme than any marked black run I have experience in Switzerland, and are more akin to something that would be an off-piste locals or mountain guide only type runs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Not everyone wants perfectly groomed steeper runs but equally not everyone wants bumps or off-piste, resorts have the unenviable task of trying to please everyone all of the time, something that is almost impossible to do no matter how large the ski area.
Its not impossible in the slightest for even a small resort to leave a small percentage of the pistes ungroomed
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| adithorp wrote: |
| @tangowaggon, If you only find "...Grand couloir is interesting but very short..." then I'd suggest it's you that's got too good for piste skiing and not the pistes that have got too easy. |
the simple fact is that piste skiing HAS got easier
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
Most places I ride, there's no one on the harder runs at all - all the tourists are crowded into the same one or two runs which they session all day.
|
Well that sounds exceptionally unsatisfactory from the "tourists" point of view (ie those who are paying for the resort to run and providing a profit) though clearly nice for the gnarly few.
I must remember never to go to one of those resorts as a "tourist"
tangowaggon - sorry about the half pisted thing, I must have misread something which suggested something similar in the last few days. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
