Legs also getting tired too quickly :-(

A snowHead

Hi,

I’m looking for some advice following a recent ski trip where my legs (quads) got constantly extremely tired, from the first run onwards. I had to stop every 4-5 turns as my legs just burned, and I have never ever experienced this before (at least not until the end of the day or on a black, for example). It was very frustrating and I want to understand why it happened to try and combat it.

A bit of background and my thoughts -

1) I am an intermediate skier and I have done around 7 weeks skiing over the last couple of years. The first two years I had rental boots, they caused me pain so I bought some of my own boots which I know now were very badly fitted and were way too big/loose. This year I got some new boots - made sure I went to a recommended fitter and they are much tighter and better fitting and most likely help me ski better. They may also make my stance different though? Not sure if this could be a contributing factor as I have just read this thread… http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=116804 . Also it's one of the only things I can think of which has majorly changed this year.

2) I am generally quite a fit person. Without meaning to sound big headed, my general fitness and leg strength are better than 75% of the group I went skiing with (there were 19 of us). So imagine my frustration when I had to stop a LOT more than most other people. Someone mentioned I may need to work on ENDURANCE in the legs (rather than STRENGTH) which may be true, but then why haven’t I felt like this in previous years (when I was a little less fit)…?

3) I had a lesson last year which helped my technique a lot and I definitely feel like I ski technically better than before (shifting weight and all that). The problem is that when I ski better I go down the slope faster, which I hate because I actually don’t like speed very much (I know, wrong sport…). So as I’m skiing down I just try to control my speed a lot by digging in. I reckon maybe I’m doing that more this year as I’m skiing better and going faster.. so by constantly ‘having the brakes on’.. I am actually having to work a lot harder…? Does that make sense?

Anyway has anyone experienced anything similar or recognise anything they have heard before or want to share any thoughts??? I would very much appreciate any advice.

Thanks!

A snowHead

Hi @shazchip,

Good job getting properly fitted boots. That will be a huge step forward to help improve your skiing.

A lot of the time whenever people get sore quads it is due to a stance issue of being too far back (back seat skiing). A good neutral fore-aft position is when the shoulders are approximately over the knees and the knees are over the toes.

When people bend too much at the knees without compensating by bending more at the waist they are then supporting their whole upper body with only their quads leaving the quads tired after not very long.

My guess would be that your new boots have a different forward lean than you are used to in the rental boots therefore you end up bending the knees too much and ending up in the back seat.

If that is not the case then my other best guess would be that as you increase speed and carve your turns, you get lower at the end of the turn by bending at the knees instead of moving the hips inside to get lower through angulation. By moving the hips inside you keep balanced in the fore-aft plane but still increase the ski edge angle and move the centre of mass inside to resist the higher forces trying to push you outside.

The issue shouldn't be anything to do with endurance since once you get the correct stance and technique most people then avoid sore quads even if they don't have high endurance.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Maybe you are using your legs too much for braking or holding a stress position, trying to correct a changed body position caused by the new boots to a position you are more used to. With 7 weeks experience you are possibly now dealing with more and more challenging terrain, and your body is tense as the stuff you're skiing is more challenging?

Too many variables to give you a solution other than cover mileage to see if becoming more used to the boots and terrain will help you relax more into skiing.

Get on some snow and get a lesson or two Very Happy

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I don,t agree with your conclusion that skiing better means you go faster. I once joined a ski class where most people were better than I was. I told the instructor that if I wasn't fast enough I'd go down a group. "it's not about being fast enough" he said "but being slow enough" and told me to follow close behind as he did beautiful controlled turns down a red run. I struggled but was allowed to join the class and learnt to steer my skis and control speed better though the others remained better.

The time my legs got really tired I'd had bronchitis and been on antibiotics. Had you been ill?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

You shouldn't be feeling anything in your quads with a right stance. If your ski stance is similar to that in the first picture in the thread that you quoted you should expect your legs getting tired. In this position it's harder both to turn skis and to maintain balance so your muscles get strained and fatigued quicker. Hard to tell if your new boots are contributing to the issue, but if they don't allow for a more relaxed upright stance they probably are and you should see a fitter to have it addressed. Try to slow down, get more fluid before you get faster. Going faster is about efficient speed control, so it helps to start with slower speeds and learn to maintain it throughout the run without accelerating, braking or stopping.

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Check out this very helpful video through this link http://www.lucymacdonald.co.uk/skiing-and-snowboarding.html
Am no expert, but asborn2ski, says, it could also be your me boots have affected your stance. Try and see a good bootfitter...you may (inexpert advice here) benefit from heel lifts for example.
And finally....sorry to point out the obvious...but book a couple of lessons, private if you can, and hopefully your instructor will identify the problem, and improve your technique.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Thanks for your responses each one of you.
First stop - back to the boot fitter. The more people that say it the more obvious it seems now that it's probably a changed stance..
And then yes, I will get a lesson or two and get an instructor's input. I was thinking to book a long weekend away for this purpose anyway, as I didn't want it to get to next year and be in the same position.

Thanks again, great advice.

...and this is why I love Snowheads! Happy

P.S. Those who mentioned about skiing slower with more control rather than going faster.. yes, that's definitely something I need to work on, though hard when skiing with a bunch of speed-freak guys and girls! :-/ But I will....

After all it is free

The other thing you should watch out for is the skiing faster than you're comfortable with. This can often be accompanied by a tendency to ski in the back seat as you're getting ready to bail out if you need to.

I would say the boots could well have something to do with it -- maybe the flex index is too high (forcing you into the back seat).

Test that -- rent a pair of boots for a day and see if it makes a difference.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

If I've understood this correctly, you were fine for your 6 weeks in rental boots and your previous (oversized) boots. Since getting a new pair you're getting unbearable thigh burn very quickly. Certainly sounds like it's the boots.

Here's a an easy test: Put your boots on and do a deep squat with your arms held out in front of you. Where are your armpits in relation to your knees? They should be directly above them; my suspicion is that they'll be on front, which means your having to ski back seat to centre your weight, which is why you've got the thigh burn. See the helpful advice given on the following forum page for a better (and illustrated) description.

https://www.j2ski.com/ski-chat-forum/posts/list/12025.page

If you're not sure, post of pic of you doing it in your best pink pants.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

lol. Crikey ben - I think there are other forums for that Embarassed

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Are you maybe also sweating and losing fluids and salt, muscles tighten/ cramp with lack of fluids, ie water.......if you've been on alcohol (?) the night before (first run onwards you say) it is a holiday after all, then this can happen due to dehydration....... seriously!

Also quads are the largest muscle group in the body, guess where would feel it first?!

I ended up with similar issues that were sorted with some bootfitting (though there was a distinct amount of assumption about whether shims to increase forward lean would either force me forward a bit more, a good thing, or I would fight the feeling that I was being pushed forwards and end up leaning back to compensate, a bad thing) but new stiffer boots certainly changed how I was skiing.

The other thing which helped was a day with Inside Out designed to focus on backseat skiing, this gave me a good idea of what I was actually doing from video feedback, but also gave me some drills that I have since used while skiing to make sure I am sufficiently forward on my skis, usually when I feel a twinge of work in the thighs I try one of these to make sure I am in the right place.

I would be very surprised if strength in your legs was an issue unless you have issues with this or have deteriorated significantly since previous trips. Frankly my fitness is probably at an all time low, and legs at their all time weakest, and the thigh burn I have now is literally nothing compared to the trips where my stance was wrong.

You know it makes sense.

My wife had the same problem, most of it was solved when she bought new boots that were set up for, but she still suffers tired legs as she does not lean over enough to let the skis carve and do the hard work, so instead she drags the skis around turns which is tiring ..especially in deeper snow, not too bad on boiler plate though wink

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

try some of this stuff... Very Happy

Or come along and we can have a closer look...

https://vimeo.com/56882024

A snowHead

My wife won't have another lesson after a bad experience in France not ESF, Sad

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Few skiers can consistently carve turns on a red run (I can't) but I think a lot kid themselves.

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Just to clarify, back seat skiing means sitting back too much right? I think I have tried consciously NOT to do that since my lesson last year, but maybe what I am actually doing is leaning forward and sitting lower at the same time?! Anyhoo without any video feedback I don't know what I'm actually doing, so that's a good next step.

@ben76, yes you've understood correctly. I'll try the test you suggest when I've got my boots handy and will certainly consider posting a pic Happy

@Markymark29, I appreciate what you're saying but I didn't drink any more alcohol or any less water than I have on previous holidays...

I had not come across InsideOut, sounds good but I am based in Manchester, will see if I can find similar here.

@Pynch, I agree.. i think increased speed (and trying to shed it) is probably a contributing factor, whether it's the main one or not, I don't know yet.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I've had 6-7 weeks skiing so hopefully similar to your level (hard to tell as I don't always ski by the week) but I certainly went in cycles. First week, blue runs, thigh burn. 2nd week, blue runs, less thigh burn (better technique and less fighting the slope). 3rd trip, blue runs for going fast, red runs for thigh burn. 4th week red runs less thigh burn. 5th week black runs thigh burn, reds for fun. Last week, black runs mostly OK. Next week I'm hoping for a couple of itinerary runs, but they may well be hard on the thighs. Nb, not carving on red runs or anything, merely making linked turns of varying size etc.

Although I try to focus on not sitting back and getting forward, when I move to terrain where I'm less comfortable, I tend to stiffen up and fight the hill, once I e survived the run a time or two I'm more able to relax and get my weight/stance sorted.

I'm merely an intermediate punter. I'm aware I sometimes end up in the back seat but I'm also able to start to carve on blues and when comfortable can do a top to bottom run in saas fee without having thigh burn at all, therefore the only thing I figure it relates to is confidence on the slope (or lack of) pushing me back on my heels a bit.

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Thanks lampygirl, good to know Smile

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@shazchip, seems to be too much of a coincidence that it's suddenly happened with new boots.

Similar happened to me (after 25 years of skiing). Although in my case it was down to new skis, specifically the bindings, which were putting my knees too far forward due to having a greater front/rear delta than my previous pairs.

There's a great book called the all mountain skier by R Mark Elling - it is my skiing bible. Lots of good technique chapters, but a whole section on getting gear correctly fitted and boots and bindings aligned so that you don't get knackered thighs.

After all it is free

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@kitenski, That graphic is to demonstrate the effect that the angle imparted by the boot and binding can have. As shown in C, excessive forward boot (and binding) angle causes the skier to be back seat in what should be a normal relaxed stance.

You can't change this by technique. Boots can be flexed forward, as they're designed to; however, even the world's best skiers can not bend a boot into a more upright position.

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When in trouble (if I get thigh burn/sore knees I always know I'm skiing badly) I try to remember a Warren Smith thing, from a video "Thigh high". Thighs vertical (this is just cruising round skiing, reds and blues). And pull my feet back under me a bit.

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@shazchip, I'd put money on it being the ramp angle of your set up throwing you forwards more than you want and you are fighting it by sitting back and getting thigh burn. Check how much heel raise you have in the boots and/or heel binding. Womens kit is notorious for being designed to raise the heel, not all women need this. You probably need to get flatter, see a bootfitter. Good luck.

@ben76, yes but it also clearly shows how ankle flex is necessary, compare B1 with zero ankle flex to A1. C1 is excessive flex of the ankle. All of which you could do in a boot that was too soft, or indeed too stiff and which prevented your ankles flexing. You can also make those movements and flex without wearing a boot in front of a mirror and get an idea of what is correct.

You know it makes sense.

@kitenski, You shouldn't have to forcibly flex your boot to be in the basic balanced stance (A1 on that stick man diagram) - your boot and binding ramp angle should be set up correctly to do this. Can you imagine having to have your shins pressed hard against the front of your boots all day just to be in the balanced stance? There'd be no skin left. Like I said, that diagram is nothing to do with technique; it's to demonstrate the importance of correct boot angle set up.

To back up my point, and for a better explanation of what I put, see the post by Bob Barnes on this forum link - he's the guy who created that stick figure graphic that you posted.
http://www.epicski.com/t/68624/forward-pressure-and-boot-lean

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I'm still curious why this specialist boot fitting seems to be very much a UK/US thing. I can't find such a service in some other major ski areas. The availability or not of such a service in a country does not seem to correlate to the standard of skiing from recreational to world cup so my suspicion is that it can make a major difference for some people who don't fall into the typical range and are then converts but may only have a marginal impact for the majority. I really don't know.

A snowHead

@TTT,

If you drove another car would you adjust the seat, steering wheel and mirrors or just drive it even if you had to keep adjusting your position to use the mirrors had to stretch a bit further than comfort for the pedals and steering wheel?

Yes you can drive to a reasonable std like that but not to the best std you could drive to, you would not improve as quickly and potentially pick up more bad habits.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@speed098, I like the analogy but not sure how relevant it is and whether it answers the question as to why this seems very much a UK/US service. Another analogy. I was once told by ex national racer that skiing is just like walking. We seem to manage that without discussion of ramp, delta and forward lean in our footwear. Do footbeds improve the alignment in my joints - yes - do they make me walk faster or better - no. Both require being balanced on the move admittedly without planks attached. There was no such mention of things when I bought boots from a resort shop that catered for racers. Perhaps I should be in Vail this week and I only need to sort out the equipment angles. I'm sceptical but willing to be convinced.

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@pam w, agreed but then also catering to a large UK market and I said some other major ski areas. As much as I love France anywhere but France when it comes to skiing.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

@TTT, I knew of a boot fitter in Annecy when I lived there, who seemed to be well regarded in the town. I think you'd probably find such shops in most towns near the mountains, just not in the resorts themselves for cost and business viability reasons.

As for skiing being like walking, seriously? We've evolved into walking on 2 feet over 10s of thousands of years. Having 2 stiff planks attached to our feet isn't natural and is going to need some technical setting up at the interface to correspond to differing bio mechanics.

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Isn't there a very famous boot place called Strolz - in Austria? And Surefoot in Verbier? And one of the boot fitters in our local (Hampshire) ski shop is Bulgarian, and presumably learnt his business in Bulgaria.

Where are these ski markets with no tradition of boot fitting?

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@pam w, major European ski areas that are not heavily frequented by Brits. Yes as I mentioned elsewhere there are custom fit services available but general consensus seems to be that this is over the top unless you have a specific problem and they don't offer the alignment services that we are talking about here. I'm talk about a specialist boot fitter service fitting branded boots and/or with alignment services outside these English serving markets equivalent to the numerous ones mentioned in the UK. CEM who obviously knows the market a lot better than I do has confirmed elsewhere that such services don't exist in lots of major ski and pre alpine areas. Although I'm sceptical that the benefits are more than marginal I was willing to pay for such a service given the amount I ski but both the internet and talking to locals could find no such service equivalent to the UK. Very good regular keen skiers get their boots from regular sport shops and other than custom fit no one knew of any specialist boot fitters/alignment specialists equivalent to the UK and I've asked a lot of keen local skiers/instructors in the last few years. Yes I have had such a service in France but that was from a Brit. Verbier was an option but again that seems Brit related and the exchange rate being what it is then CH is not value for money at the moment. Either the Brits and Americans know something about skiing than some major ski areas are overlooking or the benefits are marginal for most people

After all it is free

@TTT, I don't really disagree. Brit holiday skiers faff far more about their kit than French ones. Most French holiday skiers rent boots and skis or have ancient long skis and rear entry boots from their youth, or borrowed from a mate, and, clad in their Quechua gear and 40 year old one piece suits (probably with cotton T shirts underneath) still ski far better than the average Brit. wink

@ben76, sorry not France. I was deliberately not specific and the answer is no you will not find such shops in most towns near the mountains because I've been looking for years and was willing to drive a few hours to a place just as people make a special trip to see CEM in the UK. What do I know compared to a national team racer and full cert instructor? I'd say skiing is a lot more like walking than driving. Both fundamentally involve being balanced on the moves. I've used alignment services for other balance sports and to be honest could not say I noticed the difference. To be honest maybe I'm missing out without having such a service available but surely if it made such a fundamental difference to the majority of people then services equivalent to the UK and US would be readily available everywhere. People on the continent are willing to pay for fat skis, caving skis, footbeds, boots that can be heated up or vacuum fitted so you would have thought these alignment services would also be readily be available across Europe but they are not. If there was a piece of kit which meant I was more centred all the time, everywhere then I would very happily buy it. However, I've found being centred is down to me not my kit and not something I can just buy other than via practice and instruction.

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@pam w, I'm really not disagreeing either. Just genuinely curious why the difference and whether I'm missing out. I know exactly what you mean as ski with Brits and locals. I have the gear and instruction - they are borrowing kit from somewhere but then it emerges they have being skiing a lot since the age of 3. I would happily invest in delta, ramp , alignment, forward lean and whatever else but I suspect it would still be another very humbling experience even though they have never heard of such things.

Help!!

Legs also getting tired too quickly :-(

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