 Poster: A snowHead
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[Further update 16.1.05, taking in PisteHors report. Please scroll down.] This headline of this thread has been changed, reflecting the BBC report of 21 December, linked below. Please note the clarifications to the reports below, from liverpoolski in the 29 December posting below.
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The dedicated off-piste website PisteHors.com is reporting a recent avalanche in Tignes which buried a 22-year-old British snowboarder. The slide was apparently triggered by his brother, skiing above him. [Edit 2.1.2006: the original report, which may not have been based on eye-witness knowledge, has since been denied on that point]. The victim was rescued after 30 minutes burial, but has suffered a heart attack. More here:
http://www.pistehors.com/comments/519_0_1_0_C/
If anyone has further confirmed information on when this took place, and other details, please comment. It would be nice to know where the victim is in hospital and maybe we could wish him well.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 16-01-06 17:14; edited 6 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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He will undoubtedly be in the Hopital Nord in Grenoble which is the main trauma one - however it's HUUUGGGEEEEE. No chance of finding him unless we know his name at least.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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This morning PisteHors.com says:
| Quote: |
| victim was taken by helicopter to hospital in Grenoble were he succumed to his injuries. |
Doesn't succumbing mean giving in, dying? Is this a more up to date report than the one you read yesterday PG? If so, it sounds as if he didn't make it.
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That's terrible. If it's not too late I hope that they are both OK, if the brother traps dies then you have to feel for the other brother...
I have only skied Tignes for one day, I don't know the area at all but was with a friend who was doing seasons out there. He was showing me these great open faces, they were quite easy to get too but everyone kept cutting just above us to get further round for fresh tracks. I hate this kind of stuff. What is wrong with people? Kill yourself if you must but please don't kill me.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Oh dear, what an awful story. The French tend not to say "died", they say stuff like "left us". So it does sound as though he died, and as parlor said, a dreadful burden for the surviving brother to bear. I forwarded this story to my son, who is in Val D'Isere for the season and inclined to the reckless. He had heard about it in resort, and was very shaken, noting that "there's not even that much snow around". That's the problem I suppose, people think it's only after big dumps that avalanches happen rather than check out the risk and take expert advice and guidance.
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Once again a lesson that 3 out of 5 on the avalanche risk scale does not mean 'average' - it means considerable risk. So sad.
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One lesson that stuck with me from the guiding this weekend just gone is that there is no zero risk, ANY day, when you are out. Assume sometime in your life you will be in an avalanche.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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kuwait_ian, I suspect that the current avalnche risk is infact 1. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Early season avalanches are very common, even when noted as 1, as the temperature gradient in the snow layers is so large. In fact, there probably aren't even distinguishable snow layers yet, the snow slides easy at this time of the year because the ground temperature is still different to the snow due to it's low (high?) specific heat capacity.
My thoughts are with his friends and family. Terrible at any time of the year. Desperate at Christmas.
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parlor, the BBC report said it was 3 at the time of the accident. No idea what it is now but your second paragraph sounds sensible to me.
David Goldsmith, you might want to edit the topic title in the light of the latest sad news.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I've done that, Ian. Thank you.
Perhaps the recent stormy weather deposited much greater depths of snow in the area where this avalanche took place, than the overall level of precipitation. Cornices and wind-slab commonly amplify snow depths considerably, making the risk deceptive.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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kuwait_ian, it may well be and I can't be bothered to check on their local conditions.
This serves as a very sad reminder that skiing off piste is an science and an art that takes years to learn. Even pros get it wrong at time. And you don't have to be very far from the piste.
New fat skis & snowboards make it so easy to get to it... But you gotta know your stuff.
SO without putting people off forever it's just worth remembering that you can never be too safe or over cautious. Silly things like I've never dug a snow pit on lift served terrain, maybe I should, but be being there for a whole season means that I get to monitor every snow fall and the temperature curves.
As I said in the other thread if you want to start skiing off piste do an avalanche awareness course for a day. You learn lots and you should get at least a little decent skiing in. I've done several, my boss pays for all the staff to do one every year, I missed it this year  However I'll always do one because when you do them with different guides / instructors they all have different things to learn and I get to do more search practice.
If you are holiday and skiing off piste the first thing to do is speak to locals in the know about the snow conditions and the weather patterns from at least the last two weeks if not the season thus far. I would always dig a snow pit then so that I can see and check for myself what the conditions are like.
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the avalanche risk in Beaufortain yesterday was certainly 3/5
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You know it makes sense.
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A very small area of snow has avalanched just below 2,600 here onto the piste (no-one hurt), but although it was very short and not very wide, and there was not a massive amount of snow to slide, the size of the blocks is a salutory lesson for my students!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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One cubic metre of snow weighs one ton (tonne?).
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Poster: A snowHead
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Hello Everyone,
I would just like to point out that the "French" website the BBC is quoting from is PisteHors.com so don't take anything in the BBC article as confirmation. But it is clear two young men were out enjoying themselves in some between the pistes snowboarding and were involved in an avalanche, one escaping unscathed. It is something that will no doubt stay with the surviving brother for a long long time. Let's think about the dead man and his family and friends in any comments.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| davidof wrote: |
| Let's think about the dead man and his family and friends in any comments. |
Absolutely right. However, I would tactfully ask whether it has been established if the people involved were wearing avalanche transceivers and familiar with their use? The reports say the buried snowboarder was found within 30 minutes by a rescue dog (which to my my mind is a very rapid response by the rescue service - all credit to them for a job well done.) However, in circumstances like this, every minute is vital, and the wearing of transceivers in such conditions can considerably boost the chances of quicker rescue. If there are any lessons to come out of this tragic accident they need to be made known to hopefully reduce the incidence of such events in future.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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How many times have most of us popped off the piste into the lovely tempting soft unskied snow at the edge and played there, maybe between pistes. I know I have often - it's too gorgeous not to. We don't think of doing that as seriously off piste, when we would hire a guide and wear transceivers. Our new insurance policy doesn't cover us for off piste without a guide or instructor, and in the future we'll have to think very carefully before leaving the piste. It's sad, but awful accidents like this make you realise why. Huge sympathy for the victim's brother, and the rest of his family.
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Thats awful.
I was skiing in Tignes on Sunday and even chatted to some members of the Liverpool University Ski Club. They must be devastated.
The strong winds and snowfall on Friday and Saturday had built up a lot of windslab which slumped in many places, including across the main piste underneath the Torviere Gondola. In some sheltered areas the off piste did look quite tempting and we watched a Snowboarder ride a route down a steep gulley in the Palafour sector (without incident).
The only off piste that we attempted was the approximate route of 'Genepy' the beautiful green run from the glacier down to the Fresse Chair. It hasn't been pisted yet (not quite enough snow ) and skiing on the frozen windpack and occasional soft powder reminded me of Scottish skiing, picking a route between and around rocky outcrops.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Further reports on this accident:
Sheffield Today ... ic Liverpool.
The Sheffield Today report includes the following:
| Quote: |
| Jean Louis Tuaillon, chief of the [Tignes] Ski Patrol for Safety and Rescue, said: "The two brothers were snowboarding off piste. One was completely buried, the other one was outside. An avalanche dog found Rafe who was under one metre and a half of snow." |
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Hi guys
I organised the university trip which Rafe died in, i just wanted to say a few things as the press have made a lot of stuff up. A skier didn't set the avalanche off, it was just Rafe and his bro in the area, Rafe set the avalanche off, and contrary to reports Max wasn't caught up in the avalanche, he is fine, well as fine as he could be. They weren't in some back country area, they were basically on a drop off from the piste, a place any of us would've seen and would've done. That's the scary thing, it could've been any of us.
I'm not that great with avalanches, but from what i've heard there was a windblown base which pretty much turned the bottom layer into ballbearings which the snow on top slid on basically. It wasn't a huge avalanche, it just funnelled at the base. Rafe and his brother were both experienced boarders having done quite a few seasons.
But basically i just wanted to say to his family and friends on behalf of everyone and the university we are so sorry for your loss, his death has touched so many people, words really are not appropriate enough. Hopefully people will read about this accident and think twice before going off piste.
Peace out Rafe x
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liverpoolski, thank you for clarifying the reports. There's now a caveat at the top of the thread.
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liverpoolski, welcome to snowHeads, sorry it is in such unfortunate circumstances.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Just want to say: There was VERY strong wind the day before the accident.
It was dangerous to go off piste, even if they
took a slope very close to the piste.
Doing a couple of seasons does not make you an experienced off-piste skier!
Please before going off piste in this area, follow some avalanche courses, go out with guides, and NEVER leave the pistes without your safety equipment.
There are no signs : this is a dangerous slope.
Sorry there are soo many people learning the hard way
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parlor, 1 cubic metre of water weighs 1 tonne. Snow can be as little as 10% of the density of water, and even compacted snow is a lot less dense than water (even ice is less dense than water, which is good news for fish). Mind you, 10 cubic meters of snow doesn't look like much when it's in a pile, and will weigh at least a tonne, probably more.
I seem to remember reading somewhere (here?) that a surprisingly high proportion of avalanches involving skiers take place within a very short distance of a piste. This may be because far more skiers go off piste close to pistes, but perhaps suggests that skiers are ignorant of the risk.
I have little off piste experience and I wouldn't dream of going properly off piste without a guide and all the trimmings, but I sometimes do the sort of thing that these unfortunate guys did. Am I right in assuming that if I am skiing a slope which a good number of others have skied before me (it will not be a drmatically steep slope), the risk of avalanche is small (whatever that means)?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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When slopes are over i think a 40-45 degree angle chances of avalanches are greatly increased, whether or not they've been skied. But to answer you question, yeah even if others have skied there, there is still a risk of avalanche, take for example rafe and his brother, his brother boarded down the slope just fine, rafe didn't. It's just a matter of finding the trigger spot on the slope for an avalanche to occur, russian roulette i guess you could say. But to state the blindingly obvious conditions change everyday, what was once a "safe route" could be a mine zone the next day.
I don't know how experienced you are, but the best bet for taking an off piste run (although time consuming) is to do a snowcheck. Dig a pit in the slope, hard to explain, but you're cutting a segment out of the downhill. If you bang a bit of the slope above where you've cut the segment and snow comes off in a big wad, it's best to say turn around. You may want to look into that though i'm hardly a reliable source of knowledge!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| liverpoolski wrote: |
| When slopes are over i think a 40-45 degree angle chances of avalanches are greatly increased |
Just to correct this - slopes with angles below 25 degrees avalanche infrequently, the greatest risk are slopes between 30 to 40 degrees which see the majority of slab avalanches - look at the steepest point not the overall average. Above 45 degrees snow will sluff off the slope and avalanches become increasingly less common.
http://pistehors.com/backcountry/wiki/Avalanches/Slope-Steepness
Of course few recreational skiers can estimate slope steepness usually adding at least 10 degrees to what they estimate the slope to be.
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Hi liverpoolski, welcome to snowHeads. It must have been very difficult for you and everyone at the University who was involved in the ski trip - commiserations to Rafe's family and friends.
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You know it makes sense.
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liverpoolski, welcome to snowHeads 
A desperately sad thing to have happened. I know several people who were at Tapton School with Rafe. I'm told he was quite a character!!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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liverpoolski, keep the faith !
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Poster: A snowHead
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Having read everything that has been said sofar, I'd just like to say that it is all endless speculation, some of it dangerous esp the supposed role of his brother. Not one of us was there or knows the facts. If this was a court of law, little of what was said sofar would count for much.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Truthseeker, you're right that direct eye-witness accounts are the key to responsible reportage. I've seen nothing to date which directly quotes Rafe's brother.
Of most value would be any official French investigation into this accident, which would be based on witness and technical evidence only. I don't know if these official reports are disseminated via the internet.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I have Rafe's brothers account of the accident, i will be receiving the French statement of facts in the next few weeks. Obviously i have to have these details of the accident as the uni has to hold a full investigation into what happened to see if there is any blame i.e. was i negligent in taking a group into a dangerous environment etc etc
Truthseeker, this isn't a court of law... it was an accident.
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liverpoolski, hang in there regarding the investigation. I can only imagine the amount of paperwork involved.... 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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liverpoolski, Elizabeth B is right. Hang on in there. It sounds like an accident to me. Absolutely anyone could have taken that run at the wrong time, it happens that Rafe was the unfortunate one.....there is no neglect.
As a boarder, I know the attraction of off piste and powder and may well have hit runs that were at risk myself, without realising the potential danger (as I'm sure we all have at some time!) My thoughts go out to Rafes family and to all of his mates.
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What I really meant to say (and didn't express it very well the first time) is that uninformed speculation is not helping anyone. I've witnessed the results of these sorts of accidents before. It's the people left behind we need to worry about. This guy's brother will be carrying more than his share of grief if he was there at the time, thinking of all the things that he could have done differently. The very last thing he needs is to come across this thread - that's what I mean about dangerous. I'd very strongly recommend deleting it, and leave him and his family to grieve in peace.
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Truthseeker, you're quite right to make those points. This thread, as is normal with snowHeads, was based on information from a reputable news source.
Rather than delete this thread (which I'd personally not agree with, since it would be an act of censorship) I've gone back to the first posting and put in a further caveat in the text. The original text has not been altered, since this could alter the integrity of the thread as a whole.
Of course you're right that speculative reportage is a mistake, and (knowing the source) there's no way this would have been intended. It's inevitable, because what's reported in snowHeads is often derived from other news sources, that occasional errors occur and may be co-reported here. Better that we're out in the open about this than just clear away any evidence, IMHO.
The importance thing, in the end, is that the truth (your word) emerges. Seeking the truth is - you're right - important.
Everyone would share your sympathies and respect for Rafe Hattaway's family and friends. There are some warm tributes to Rafe from them beneath the PisteHors report - for the link, see the first posting.
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Thanks David - I think that is a good compromise position.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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One month after Rafe Hattaway's death in Tignes, davidof of PisteHors has visited the scene of the avalanche and reports in more detail on why it happened:
http://pistehors.com/comments/540_0_1_0_C/
The report makes salutary reading: "The first thing that strikes you is how small the slide is" reports davidof.
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Frightening. Thanks for the wise update.
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