This snowplough malarkey... I'm not getting it.

A snowHead

It feels nice to finally be able to contribute after spending a few days on snow. Falling over mainly.

I've now had a couple of private lessons locally and I'm a bit disappointed with my progress. Sunday caused me almost to give up, I'm mid-thirties, never been down a slope in my life, and all I got told was to concentrate on separating my knees into the plough. Didn't matter if it was killing them having to twist them as well as killing my hip, it also caused a trapped nerve in my left foot to recur (caused by a metatarsal sprain/break in March last year and waiting too long to get it fixed) and to cut a long story short, sent me into the barriers far too often for my liking and damned near killed my knees and hips. Luckily they recovered quickly.

New day today, new instructor, much better chemistry. Told me pretty much the opposite to the other instructor, not to worry so much about knee placement but making sure I was pushing my heels out hard to get the backs of the skis out into the plough. Much better... until, gaining in confidence I managed to career into a lift queue when the instructions suddenly stopped working. Cue an entanglement with barriers and folks calling me "downright dangerous". I understand the proverbial bull in a china shop is not pretty, but my sincerest apologies had to suffice.

Now, back onto the horse, the rest of the day (with the help of a gentle soul who could see me struggling sans instruction) went well, was able to brake and turn and pretty much direct myself at slow speed. Up on a drag lift and able to use that with no drama either - scarily easy...

...now though, trying to plough for my life, the nursery slope is turning into a black run in front of me. I am not braking despite being in the "correct" position, I am not leaning back (as far as I knew) and instead opt to perform controlled falls before I'm into the lift queue at 50mph (or at least feels like it, the pick-up off the slope was tremendous - it's 100% cannoned and felt icy to the touch at the end).

I'm now a little afraid I'm not cut out for this... I can't be barrelling down a nursery slope uncontrolled and no matter how hard I push my heels to try and get the plough my skis just want to go straight. I struggle even getting into the plough from a standing start and the braking effect, shall we say, leaves something to be desired?

Question I have now is, if I have no problem getting the skis straight and at the fall point if I should imagine the plough was just a bad dream and "plough" on into parallel or if I have to 'waste' even more lessons getting the plough?

The instructor also wondered if she should go straight to parallel with me since I appeared to be more comfortable with my skis straight... question is what say the SH faithful?

I'm over in the UK this week... any kind souls able to help at a freezer (yes, I can pay)? Chillfactore is probably best but can do Hemel as well since I'm in London as well as oop north and in my own car.

A snowHead

I personally think a plough is an essential skill to have and that you should try to master it. Who were you having lessons with (the instructions on the first lesson sound odd so I am wondering if they are native English speakers)? I am sure others in the forum can recommend someone in a fridge to have lessons with.

All I can say is stick with it my first few lots of lessons were difficult too but I persevered and I can truly say despite my lack of style and grace I now really enjoy skiing.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

The instructions would have been in Swedish and I'm a fluent Swedish speaker so it wouldn't have been a language barrier (see usual location, but I am English).

My gut instinct also tells me you're right since when the instructor talked about going parallel I wanted to persevere with the plough... but if I'm not getting enough power to stop, I'm currently asking myself what's the point?

You need to Login to know who's really who.

It sounds to me by your description that perhaps you are struggling to find the right blend of inside edge (big toe) but I could be wrong as I'm only going on what you've described. If you are pressing this edge in so much on the plough, it's no wonder you are feeling sore; the amount of sheer effort it will be taking you to get a large enough plough 'locked in' on these edges will tire you easily as its so difficult then to slide out the backs of the ski's. You then end up with a small plough followed by the ski's wanting to go straight and further out till you are nearly doing the splits! the biggest problem with not being able to master a plough is that it's a fundamental element that even expert skiers will use; if you try and miss it out it could be a bad thing.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

It's difficult to know why your having trouble ploughing but your instructor should be able to sort you out if they're any good. The knee comment might be a give away that you're knocking your knees together which puts the skis too much on their edges and the skis take off like they're on tracks. Try and think about pushing the feet apart and turning them simultaneously from a pivot point at the back of your arch where it joins the heel. It would be easier if I could see your skiing. But try that for starters.

As for fridge skiing, I'm a regular Chill Factore visitor. I'm away for a month until mid Feb but will then have a couple of weeks at home before going off to teach again in Italy. Let me know if you want a meet up for a few pointers. Always happy to help.

In the meantime, relax and enjoy it. That may seem hard but often tension causes a lot of these kind of problems.

You'll need to Register first of course.

Oh god, I can relate to this.....

Several years ago, I had a ski holiday booked, never skied thought I'd have some lessons in the UK. Went to Bracknell John Nike. To cut a long story short I couldn't snowplough, my knees (subsequently I found out I do have a problem with my knees) just wouldn't allow it. After spending a couple of hundred quid (yes) on private lessons at Bracknell the (teenage) instructor finally told me I'd be better off trying another sport. "You ain't never gonna ski"

I was slightly disillusioned.

Someone suggested Farnborough dry slope. There, I explained to the middle aged Scots woman what had happened at Bracknell, she didn't even ask me to try snowploughing, we went straight to parallel. This was four days before the booked holiday.
The holiday was brilliant, a few shakey bits, but I could ski!

<rant> Who TF was that snotty nosed teenager at Bracknell to tell me that I'd never ski cos I couldn't plough. Wnkrs the lot. Sorry, </rant>

I'm not the best skier in the world by a long shot, but have done some pretty big days. Still can't plough.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@nailzstomp, the plough always felt like fairly inefficient way of controlling speed, that is to say the effort required to reduce speed is not directly proportional to the relatively large physical effort required. Especially when compared to a hokey stop.

I am certainly not an instructor, but I do enjoy the technical side of things. For me it is nice to have the plough in your metaphorical ski locker, to call upon when you maybe just occassionally require it.

I guess that if your instructor uses the straight to parallel method, it's not totally binary. You can use a little bit of wedge as you initiate the turn, then control your speed at the end of the turn by traversing acroos or up the fall line.

But you really should wait for a professional opinion.

After all it is free

Not necesarilly tips on the snow plough but a suggestion/observation;

- if you go straight down a slope it is very steep whereas if you go across it it can be virtually flat.

So start by going all the way across the piste really s l o w l y with your skis in roughly the snow plough, it will be enough that it controls your speed.

If you start to go too fast turn up the hill a little bit, after all you cannot ski up hill.

If you start to go too slowly aim a smidge down hill to pick up some speed.

When you get to the side of the piste turn and go all the way across.

It might not get you from the top to the bottom at any speed, but it may help you master the position and will get you down safely.

In time you will point the skis more down hill and go faster.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

@nailzstomp, I still can't plough, knees won't do it. Hasn't stopped me doing **anything**, developed a bit of a one ski plough technique which works fairly well skiing trees and narrow passages.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Some people I see struggling with the snowplough tend to think of it as a "braking mechanism", and the wider the snowplough is the more ability they have to slow down. I think a better way of thinking about the snowplough is to think of it as a "turning mechanism" so you use the shape of the turn as the way to control your speed rather than trying to get in to an increasingly wide plough as you speed towards the innocents in the lift queue.

You don't need to spend a long time in the snowplough phase, just enough to get confident at linking left and right turns and to start developing effective movements (extension, and perhaps flexion). Once this happens you are probably going to have the skills and confidence to carry a bit more speed, in which case you will instinctively start to balance more on the outside ski and your skis will move towards parallel quite naturally.

snow reports

@rob@rar <-- always what he says

You know it makes sense.

Some good tips to be had in this video snowHead

http://youtube.com/v/85AHvpGTkdU

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

As rob@rar says, the plough is only to be used as a braking manoeuvre on the gentlest slopes. It is taught as a stable position in which to turn both legs which with the application of technique and speed becomes a parallel turn. As the slope gets steeper no amount of plot will stop you it's the turning that controls your speed.

A snowHead

So, if snowplough is a problem, why not skip it and just go parallel as I did? I can probably snowplough switch now better than most forwards.
Really don't understand the need to snowplough in the initial stages of learning. Can someone explain please why it is essential.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@Geoffers

Kevin reminds me a lot of one of my mates and the two women with the SW accents remind me a lot of my mum, can just imagine her saying "Oh poo-poo, I got one ski out and one ski in"

You need to Login to know who's really who.

@nailzstomp, what was the snow like?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

You'll need to Register first of course.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

@nailzstomp, the potential problem with forcing skis to be parallel too soon is that the skier can very quickly get used to pushing the skis sideways with a big pivot, because this is an easy way to get the skis to change direction. Unfortunately this is really unhelpful later on and it's a bad habit which is tough to put right. In order to ski parallel you have to have enough speed to balance your centre of mass to the inside of both skis and move your CoM across both skis to to link to the next turn. For a lot of learners in the first hour or two on snow this speed level is too intimidating so they end up pushing their skis sideways very quickly, leading to a bad habit pivot.

If you were turning and controlling your speed on the lower half of your nursery slope but not on the upper part of the slope, I'm guessing that you weren't quite ready for the steeper terrain. Nothing intrinsically wrong with your snowplough, just not yet proficient to take it on to steeper slopes. Perhaps ask your instructor to keep you on gentler terrain so you can develop a good snowplough turn?

Hi nailzstomp,

So.... I think you should give yourself more credit

Take your time; be patient; it _will_ come with time (if you stick with it) and whilst you may not be 'getting' snowplough; you may learn much faster than others at more advanced stages. Perseverance and patience are key attributes.

It sounds like you've only had a few lessons - and that you are at an appropriate stage of progression for the time spent. So, go easy on yourself: it's ok to take a while to learn [and it sounds like you're actually learning very fast] Cool

Also - I wouldn't recommend any solo skiing until you're further along (and I would also recommend *not* getting help from non-instructors off've Snowheads - despite their kind intentions); it's likely to create bad habits/bad experiences which could seriously hamper your progression [if you have an accident or an injury - it could really put you off]. Far better to grab a lesson from a recommended, professional instructor off've here (I think instructors at Hemel and Milton Keynes snowdomes will be great for you) every time you hit the slope in the early stages - maybe until you're comfortable with some kind of partial parallel turns or at least until you've got snowplough sorted - would be my humble advice. You want lots of positive/successful progressions, managed by a professional instructor, to minimise issues and build a solid foundation [akin to building a house; you wouldn't want an amateur installing a foundation for your house... same reasoning].

The wider sentiment I think that may help you in later stages is; Skiing is a journey with no destination. You never "master" skiing; there is always something more to learn, so don't rush the process of learning. (It's ok to suck, at times. It's ok to crash, at times. These events all add to the mystique and awesomeness of skiing. For many of us it's 'the good old days' and we remember the hiccups fondly!). It's really a question of hours spent, and positive attitude.

Also; the things your experiencing (weakness in controlling your speed; managing your edges and direction etc) are the building blocks that will be revisited again and again in later stages of your development, so the things you're being challenged with now, once you've overcome them/gained insights from them, will be lessons you can pull out of your bag again and again when difficulties arise later in your skiing journey. A lot of skiing is muscle memory; you've got to 'feel' the issue and try different physical solutions until you find something that your body can remember and re-use.

This may be less agreeable, but I'll say it anyway: I would also say try to take what your coaches say on 'blind faith' for the most part; even if what they're saying sounds counter-intuitive. The only exception is where your injury is a factor; pain is bad and you must speak up when anything hurts, always. But generally; *try* what they're suggesting, and see if it helps you. Chances are, the instructor's advice will help you in some way.

Finally, wierdly, there's a Zen concept of looking at yourself like your grandmother might. i.e. nothing but affection for yourself ["awww aren't they learning fast!" "Wow he's much surer getting off the lift now!" etc etc] and not punishing yourself for slowness/making mistakes; only seeing yourself in a positive light, which may help you, from what you've said. Really it's ok to be occasionally out of control [when learning] and to need instruction. It's also true that your legs may need time to build up muscle and stamina [I think many people under-estimate how demanding skiing is - it is hard work if your legs have not done anything very physical for many years] so I suspect you're going to come on leaps and bounds if you stick with it, as your body adapts to this new most-peculiar activity.

The main thing is to make sure you're focused on enjoyment and try to hold on to the positives you're getting out of it, rather than the negatives.

Best of luck and keep us posted!

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

Top post @JaMMi, and I will! As I elude to in my first post, I spoke up on my first lesson saying "what you're trying to get me to do is hurting me!" and I didn't feel any solutions to it were forthcoming. I've at least found an instructor that had solutions when I explained what was happening (namely that the instructions sounded weird and had I understood them? Yes... then try this instead, it isn't all about knee separation). I'll definitely keep up with being professionally instructed, it's a pain on the wallet but then again so's a ruptured cruciate...

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Yes, great advice from @JaMMi and I'm glad you are still going to pursue professional help as per your first post. I think it was a good thing also to post and hear other people's thoughts/experiences as this is also a great way of learning! Not all advice is bad advice and there is a lot of experience in here which can indeed give you qualified guidance but mostly, it's good to treat it as a good tool to hear other peoples experiences. Ultimately, there is no substitute for that 1 to 1 professional help on a slope; especially if you find an affinity with your instructor and then stick with them (if you can) as you will progress better. Best of luck to you!

snow reports

Sorry to hear you're having such a rough time. I found it easy to snowplough on slopes with a very slight gradient, but once I'd been encouraged to take lifts to the top of a run, I had many panicked times of heading down the fall line with no idea how to stop, and even though I could snowplough relatively well, I couldn't understand why it wasn't slowing me down enough. Then a friend told me I needed to traverse the slope more.

In my early days of skiing I remember being frustrated with my boots, in pain, and wondering why my foot was moving but the ski wouldn't do what I wanted it to. I think as a beginner, you need as few things to be distracted by so I would look to getting your own boots once you are sure that skiing is a long term hobby for you. This could be important for you, particularly with knee problems. For now you should persevere in the hire shop, ask questions about how the boot should fit and don't be afraid to ask for an alternative boot. Also, is there any kind of knee support you can wear?

Your progress really doesn't sound that different to mine for that amount of time learning so don't worry and definitely try to keep your confidence. I am a slow learner, easily disheartened and terrified of injury but a good teacher who explained things in a helpful way made a big difference. It's a shame Inside Out (rob@rar) doesn't offer tuition for these early stages of skiing as I bet they could make it a really positive experience.

Good luck with your learning, don't give up. Also be kind to yourself - learning this as an adult is hard work.

Stick at it - this sounds a bit like me on my first trip. After moving from the nursery slopes on my first run down I found myself throwing myself to the ground to avoid hitting someone at a busy point where pistes were meeting. Keep at it. It will come good and be worth it.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A hard snowplough is hard on the legs. But other than that not surprisingly @rob@rar gives great thoughts/advice.

A snowHead

@nailzstomp, where in Sweden are you skiing (I'm guessing from your original post that your lessons were here, rather than the UK)? I'm no expert on technique so I'm not qualified to comment on that, but having spent a couple of days this last weekend at "local" slopes in Sweden, I would say that some of the beginner slopes have sections that are decidely un-beginner-like, and the snow has not been great for learning - hard packed from very early on in the day. Until you've got the hang of using turns to control your speed, any increase in slope will be hard to deal with, especially if the snow is poor. Stick with it, and stay positive Happy

.

A snowHead

@mgrolf - not a million miles away from you if that's still your location! Ulricehamn is my local slope since I moved out from Göteborg a year ago in that direction. I was wondering if it could be the slope since even if it's the beginner hill it's "Green/Blue"... if you know the slopes it's the little one off at 90 degrees to the left of all the others (Skolbacke, the school hill) maybe it's blue at the top and green at the bottom.

I intend on keeping at it. I'm feeling it today, but that was the hard fall into the lift queue where I hurt the most... feels like a nicely bruised upper thigh. If you want to do it though you have to be prepared to take the tumbles, at least it was that way learning to skate many moons ago. Unfortunately no chance of getting to the slope today, dogsitting!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@nailzstomp, something that really helped me was to realise that I should always be turning, like @rob@rar, says you should think of the plough as a means to help you turn and use your turn shape to control your descent. Think about pedaling a bike and shifting pressure from one foot to the next to change direction, as soon as you have finished one turn, shift the weight to the next foot and you will begin to turn the other way, the more pressure you put on each foot the quicker you will turn (and your turn will have a shorter radius).

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Stick with it...you will improve. It is really really worth it, despite the aches and pains, fear and sense of making an occasional muppet of yourself!

My first ski experience at the age of 26 was a week of thigh and knee burning agony and that was before they invented carving skis. Snow ploughing is really hard once you have graduated from it- ask any trainee ski instructor about relearning that particular skill!

Am no instructor, but the things that ultimately helped me improve included understanding HOW AND WHY the ski turns when put under pressure, so you can picture what you are trying to achieve. A good instructor should try and tune in with how it is that you as an individual learn.
Think a private lesson in an indoor slope may well help enormously, heartily endorse everyone else's comments.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I know this is tantamount to blasphemy, but have you tried snowboarding? Others may have some feedback as to whether it's the dark side and must not be touched at this point in your learning process with skis, but it could be worth a try if you find parallel to be a huge struggle too? Given the amount of time spent falling over it's probably best tried in a dome in the UK though rather on icy Swedish slopes...

You'll need to Register first of course.

Funnily enough, I suggested that to the instructor! I said "if I can't get this together I guess I'll have to give a board a try..." Very Happy

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@nailzstomp, I was at Ulricehamn on Saturday and the snow was decidedly not nice, with quite a few polished patches ready to catch out the unwary. I know the slope you mean, but I have to admit I haven't been on it so I can't say how steep it is. But the top section of the main teknik barnbacke is definitely not green and was unpleasant. I can't imagine it was much better on Sunday although I think it was a bit colder so not raining! Hopefully we'll get some real snow soon that will make things a lot easier.

After all it is free

@nailzstomp, I don't want to labour a point but...........
I think you are approaching this with a wrong impression about the dreaded Snow Plough
As has been stated, the Snow Plough is NOT really a mechanism for stopping (despite popular belief)
The Plough IS a mechanism for steering. Your instructor should be explaining that your primary method for controlling your speed and stopping is to turn back up the slope. The Plough can be used as a "hand brake" type tool, but once you're trundling down a slope it can't be relied on to stop you (as your lift queue experience illustrates). It is mainly a vehicle in order to allow you to progress safely to the next stage (Plough-Parallel) it doesn't have to become a war of attrition.
The Plough technique places your skis in a steering position e.g. on edge and turned across the slope.
As soon as you realise that you are using the skis one at a time, alternating from one to the other as it becomes the outside/steering ski in order to steer, the sooner you learn to balance on & steer the outside ski, the sooner you can reduce the Plough size (smaller wedge of pizza) and the sooner your inside ski can lighten & begin to slide in parallel. You will be less reliant on the plough shape, it will become smaller and less prolonged, you will begin to feel more comfortable on your skis & not aggravate any injury.
If this process is clearly understood then skiing plough parallel (much less uncomfortable) could be achievable with the equivalent of a half days private tuition. Especially given your recent lessons.
It would be a great shame to miss all the pleasure that skiing has to offer because of a failing in the communication at such an early stage.
I teach at Hemel, as do a few of your respondents, so if you're in the neighbourhood give us a shout.
Best of luck...Persevere!

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

My advice is to keep at it. I had my first lesson when I was 47 and found it very, very difficult. Took me about 3 hours until I could do a snowplough stop. I'm 60 now and got it sussed, I can ski almost anything. Happy on unpisted blacks. Don't despair, don't give up.

Help!!

This snowplough malarkey... I'm not getting it.

snowHeads Forum Index >>> Bend ze Knees