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The new operator of Cairngorm, Scotland: an 'unnatural rip-off'?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
This posting is a bit longer than a typical sH posting, because it's important to reproduce - in full - a press release which was issued three weeks ago by Natural Retreats (the new operator of Cairngorm Mountain).

There are significant questions about that press release.
There are bigger questions about the way skiing is being priced, in relation to the service provided (i.e. uplift provision), on the mountain.
[I worked one full season on Cairngorm (1974-5), as a ski instructor, and part-time the following season. It's a great mountain, loved by thousands of skiers]

Let's begin with the press release, issued in mid-December by Grifco PR, 18 Coda Centre, 189 Munster Road, London SW6 6AW. No need to read it in full if you don't want to ... skip below ...

Quote:

Snow Sports Season On CairnGorm Mountain
An update on developments for the Winter Season & 2015


December 2014… / As the snow begins to fall, snow sports enthusiasts are eagerly awaiting the first opportunity to hit the slopes on CairnGorm Mountain this winter, which looks promising for this weekend. Visitors this season will be able to enjoy some of the exciting improvements already made since Natural Retreats took over operation of the resort earlier this year. The snow sports season typically runs from December through to April, depending on weather conditions.

Natural Retreats, the specialist leisure and travel company, have been quick to put into effect an ambitious £6.2 million five-year development plan for CairnGorm Mountain since their appointment. The Day Lodge and Top Station have both had exciting facelifts ready for this Winter Season, a key lift has been upgraded, improved benefits introduced for Season Pass holders and Natural Retreats continues its commitment to two local charities.

Day Lodge Redevelopment


Situated at base of the mountain close to all of the lifts, Day Lodge is a CairnGorm hub. Fully refurbished ahead of the 2014/15 Winter Season, Day Lodge is now a contemporary and stylish venue offering a superb retail space on the ground floor known as Natural Retreats Outfitters, Mountain Base and a fantastic eatery, Natural Retreats Storehouse, on the first floor.

At Natural Retreats Outfitters, Mountain Base, visitors are able to stock up on everything they could need for a holiday exploring the great outdoors. High quality outdoor clothing, ski-wear, footwear, equipment and accessories from leading brands such as Helly Hansen and Hunter, a range of memorable souvenirs and gifts.

On the first floor, Natural Retreats Storehouse has a relaxed, laid back vibe with an open fire and large windows that really make the most of the stunning mountain views. Guests can sample the best local produce and provisions, stock up at a co-operative shop and enjoy a Starbucks coffee. Catering to many tastes, the Storehouse offers breakfast, lunch and heartier meals such as stone baked pizzas. There is also a dedicated ‘Best of Scotland’ range, including Scottish beef burgers and smoky seafood platters. A selection of local beers and ales, as well as a great wine list, ensures guests can find their perfect tipple to sit back and relax with while admiring one of the country’s most spectacular backdrops.

Top Station Refurbishment

Both the Ptarmigan Restaurant and the Shop at the Top have been refurbished and relaunched as 1097 and the retail area as The Outfitters, Mountain Top. The entire space has been redecorated with new furniture, fixtures and fittings to create a chic mountain-top venue.

1097 gives a nod towards the incredible height of the top station, which measures 1097 metres making this the UK’s highest restaurant by some way! Natural Retreats have created a place where guests can truly relax, unwind and admire the breathtaking views. 1097 offers an unbeatable dining experience, offering a contemporary yet rustic setting, the finest dishes made with fresh and local ingredients, delicious hot beverages and an incredibly well-stocked bar for après-ski enjoyment. 1097 will continue to be available as the ultimate wedding venue, offering the happy couple and their guests an experience they’ll never forget.

Much like its sister store at the Mountain Base, The Outfitters, Mountain Top offers visitors a fantastic shopping experience. The larger of the two stores, this space offers a more varied range of clothing, footwear and accessories, as well as a great range of branded souvenirs and gifts.

Upgrades to Lifts

An initial upgrade has already been undertaken, with more to follow later next year. The Shieling ski-tow has been replaced with a modern rope tow optimised for beginner skiers and boarders, providing more comfortable and easier access to some nice sheltered nursery slopes (green runs). Natural Retreats also plan to install two new lifts in summer 2015.

Season Passes

Those lucky enough to live near to CairnGorm Mountain, or those planning regular visits this winter season, should opt for a Season Pass allowing access to the mountain and all its lifts as frequently as you wish. For the first time, Season Pass members will receive a welcome pack, including a letter from the General Manager, new winter brochure with pull-out piste map and discount vouchers that can be redeemed on-site, a Season Pass benefit booklet which includes the exclusive discounts/offers available from the best businesses in Aviemore and surrounding area and a branded key-card – all contained in a smart, branded folder. An Adult Season Pass costs £430 (full price) / £310 (early bird).

The cost of a Junior Season Pass has been reduced from £205 (full price) /£135 (early bird) to £95 (full price) /£75 (early bird).

Improved Signage

Natural Retreats has enhanced signage and way-finding across the Resort to improve the visitor experience.

Instructor Qualifications


Natural Retreats have refined the instructor qualifications that are accepted for leading ski and snowboarding lessons on the Mountain in order to improve the quality of the visitor/student experience. Proof of qualifications must be shown before an Instructor Pass can be issued.

Charity Partners

“Natural Retreats strives to enable people to enjoy a way of life in a natural world, and we want to deliver world-class experiences at Cairngorm Mountain for everybody. We are big believers in access for all, and this remarkable landscape, thanks to the funicular, can be enjoyed by everyone, despite age or ability.” Matt Spence, founder and CEO of Natural Retreats.

Natural Retreats are working closely with two key charities – Disability Snowsport UK (DSUK) and Badenoch & Strathspey Schools Snowsports Association (BSSSA). Through ongoing daily fundraising, partner donations and events, Natural Retreats is committed to supporting these two important charities to ensure an increasing uptake of snowsports among all ages, backgrounds and abilities.

Disability Snowsport UK have been running their adaptive ski school on CairnGorm Mountain since 1995. It was the first successful full time adaptive ski school, catering for all disabilities, in Europe.

The BSSSA winter programme takes place annually in March. Nine local primary schools, over 150 pupils, are offered heavily subsidised skiing & snowboarding lessons on CairnGorm Mountain over four weeks. The programme is a great way to introduce children from all backgrounds to a sport that is a health promoting, positive and lifelong activity and a key part of their local heritage. The children gain self-confidence, make new friends as they prepare for the transition to secondary school and develop a sense of responsibility for themselves, others around them and the environment. Over the years, thousands of local children have benefitted from the programme.
----------------------
Natural Retreats are excited to get their first Winter Season at CairnGorm Mountain underway. The UK’s largest and busiest skiing destination is now in the capable hands of Natural Retreats’ market-leading operational team, who have over 65 years of experience within Ski Resorts worldwide. Having been awarded a 25 year lease of CairnGorm Mountain, Natural Retreats have unveiled a £6.2m five year investment plan to elevate and establish the Resort as one of the leading leisure and adventure destinations in Europe. An exciting new chapter for Cairngorm Mountain and the local economy.

www.naturalretreats.com


That news ran on PlanetSki and other news outlets, and questions were immediately raised on the Winterhighland forum as to its veracity. This is what a representative of Grifco PR said in response to an enquiry ...

Quote:
My apologies for any confusion here; these improvements are planned for Cairngorm Mountain and are set to take place in 2015, many are yet to be realised since it is rather a large project, as I’m sure you understand.

Please do let me know any specific questions that you have regarding Cairngorm and I can certainly speak to the Natural Retreats team and do my best to get answers to these over to you.


Natural Retreats was granted a 25-year lease for the operation of Cairngorm last April, so what it does in its opening winter ... and the trading relationship it strikes with the ski community ... is of some importance. There is, for example, concern over the pricing of daily liftpasses and what's provided for the money. The mountain is currently partially open. There's lots of comment on Cairngorm's Facebook page, with some responses from Natural Retreats. This pair of messages, from two days ago (Saturday) sets the scene ...

From Cairngorm Mountain at 10.33am:
Quote:
We have had to suspend the sale of ski passes for the rest of the day due to the number of skiers that we currently have onsite. This is due to us reaching a safe capacity for the terrain we have open. Funicular Railway tickets are still available for purchase.


From David Robertson, 12 hours later - 10.59pm:
Quote:
I was there today, £34.50 is a rip off for 2 runs, 1 of which was covered in solid ice. Also, the queue for the bottom t-bar was huge. We are beginners and novices and were told we had to double up, although this is much more difficult and we hadn't practiced before. After falling twice we were forced to walk up the hill (this happened on several occasions). There were plenty boarders doing the same. I won't be back this year.


It's often remarked that Cairngorm has a captive market. Aviemore, the resort 9 miles away which services it, has thousands of tourist beds. There is no comparable ski area in the UK, in terms of that relationship. It is the UK's best-known ski area, and the place beginners often travel to, to try out the sport.

What is the strategy, given that Natural Retreats have 25-year rights to operate it, for Cairngorm? When I worked there 40 years ago, the mountain had just constructed its 3rd and 4th chairlifts (on the Coire na Ciste). Now it has no chairlifts.

Are Natural Retreats intending to price their service reasonably ... and what is their genuine investment strategy for this year?
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It was holiday season, the snow was already marginal and bony, but the hoards descended on Aviemore/Cairngorm anyway and as usual, some of them felt aggrieved. Much of that was an inevitability, and restricting ticket sales when capacity is insufficient is a good thing. The day pass pricing argument in itself will never be winnable because even at £34.50, the counter would be that it's cheaper per metre of vertical than a snowdome, yada, yada, yada, and 'good value' compared to a day doing (insert a predictably more expensive hobby here) elsewhere in Scotland. And regarding capacity / relative pricing compared to other ski area day passes, like newly incumbent governments, Natural Retreats can just play a get out of jail free card by pointing fingers at their predecessors.

So I reckon you can just ignore the pricing argument altogether, Natural Retreats can and will do what they like. They could argue that their service is in fact under-priced compared to say New Zealand, Australia and the USA and that if the area is to get the investment it needs, it'll have to charge more in the long run. It's Natural Retreat's demonstrable short term commitment that should be held to scutiny, along with the decisions of the quango folk who awarded them their 25 year franchise.
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Well said
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I was up there yesterday with my fiancee, who is a fairly nervous beginner. We pre-booked passes and her equipment (I have my own). After arriving around 8:45am we queued for more than an hour to get her boots and skis - I suspect the system was designed to run with a lot more staff, but making folk queue to get boots to then join another queue to get skis seems counter intuitive to me. Anyone who had booked a lesson also got to skip the queue of regular johns.

The second staff member we dealt with to get skis was quite scathing about the new management and the cuts that had been made to staff levels to reduce costs.

£35 is fairly expensive for a day pass anywhere, let alone Cairngorm with three lifts running and only a few icy, windswept green pistes available. I don't grudge paying it as I am keen to see Scottish snowsports facilities flourish, but those prices will put many off - especially if (as yesterday) they update their facebook at 7am saying it's touch and go whether they will be open for snowsports, then had no official update until nearly 9am.

We ended up giving up after a couple of hours as it was icy, too windy to hear each other and generally not conducive to teaching a nervy amateur. To have around 600 people essentially running off two T bars does seems a bit exploitative to me and a lot of the inclusive atmosphere at Cairngorm in recent years seems to be lacking.
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Glenshee is £30.

So £34.50 doesn't seem at all unreasonable.

While some might consider it sensible to discount tickets based on operating lifts, given the variability Scotland's ski weather/conditions, that could lead to commercial disaster.
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Sounding like a scaled down verson of most of the Alps this Christmas week. Lots of punters, not much snow, never the best combination.
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@under a new name, I think it's more the fact that it's gone up around 15% with no obvious improvement to facilities.
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£34.50 isn't a lot for entertainment these days. Look at what people pay to cycle on public roads in a Sportive or at concert prices.

If you turn up to ski on a crap day, well, that's your choice. It's not like information on weather and snow conditions isn't easily available.

"Captive market" is a silly argument. Nobody has to stay in Aviemore. Nobody has to go skiing.
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We skied at Cairngorm a couple of times last winter and decided never to bother going again. Forecast looked good so we got up ridiculously early, drove for 2.5 hours, queued for an hour for ski hire, then finally got up the mountain and hardly anything was open so we gave up. In my opinion it is very poorly designed and they regularly struggle to cope when it's busy.

If you live locally and can afford to be spontaneous or if you don't mind an uphill hike when the lifts close prematurely, it's a great place.
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If they're charging too much the market will react accordingly, and sometimes you have to dip your toe in the water to find out what the market will stand.

Also, as someone says above, if you want them to invest in better lifts and more staff they will need to charge.

Anyone who thinks this is too much was quite at liberty to put their own money in (or to put together a business plan to borrow the cash) and take it on themselves.

Basic economics.
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Glenshee is £30 but i dont think they would charge that for only 3 lifts running. Last year i remember paying £20 for only the begginers lifts running.

Skied the lecht before christmas, and although it was thin(typical Lecht skiing), there was little to no ques and was a great day skiing.

Cairngorm is what it is and thats why some people go there, and others stay away. They get away with what they charge, and how they treat their customers. As long as its making them some money it will keep going that way. I would only go back when i see some investment into the ski area. I like to support Scottish skiing and think the best way to do this is by going to the ski resorts that show some investment back into the skiing side of it.

Glencoe have got planning approval for a new button lift, Glenshee will be replaceing the tiger with a new chair and possibly putting in planning permission in the summer for a new 4 man chair over on Meall Odar. The Lecht will open when ever they can even if the skiing is sketchy. Im happy to go spend money at these resorts as i feel its better for my money to go to those areas that seem to be run with skiers in mind.
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northernsoulboy wrote:
Also, as someone says above, if you want them to invest in better lifts and more staff they will need to charge.


I just said that Natural Retreat's could make that argument about investment in general. Arguably, as employment costs have already been reduced, they should already have freed up cash to support the investment they'd promised as part of their bid for the tender.

northernsoulboy wrote:
Anyone who thinks this is too much was quite at liberty to put their own money in (or to put together a business plan to borrow the cash) and take it on themselves.

Basic economics.


No, it really wasn't anywhere near as simple as that. Do some background reading. Laughing
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Ever since the funicular was built Cairngorm has tried to become a "year round tourist attraction" rather than a ski area.
HIE / Natural Retreats would ideally like to run just a funicular + expensive tourist shop...
The skiing has almost become an inconvenience Sad
Their target market is beginners who books lessons, hire kit and eat lunch in the cafe.
Advanced skiers who just buy a day pass are less profitable and of little importance to them.
This is a clear business strategy - demonstrated by the deliberate removal of 6 lifts used by more advanced skiers over the last decade.
West Wall Chair, Ciste Chair, White Lady T-Bar, Fiaciall T-Bar, Aonach Poma, Link Poma all gone (RIP).

Not surprising - from a purely business perspective ski areas (especially in Scotland) don't always make profit.
Ski areas have high overheads and seasonal demand.
..... However that doesn't mean that ski areas, such as Cairngorm, don't have much wider economic benefit to the local area or economy.
Main small alpine ski areas are heavily subsidised by the local commune for this very reason.

Of course the problem with all of this shambles is that it reflects badly on the entire Scottish ski industry.
Glencoe, Nevis, Lecht and Glenshee rarely have long queues at weekends or hordes of unhappy punters.
However for a number of reasons Cairngorm will always be Scotlands flag ship resort - due mainly to the accommodation and facilities in Aviemore plus the longer season in the Cairngorms. Aviemore is the closest we have to a proper ski town in the UK.

Cairngorms success is critical to the entire Scottish snowsports industry (usually they attract 30-40% of all skiers days in Scotland).
From 1970->90s it was arguably Scotlands best ski resort.
.... but the accountants, and local government (via HIE), have run it into the ground and deliberately reduced the importance of skiing to their core business.
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Haggis_Trap wrote:
Of course the problem with all of this shambles is that it reflects badly on the entire Scottish ski industry.
Glencoe, Nevis, Lecht and Glenshee rarely have weekend long queues or unhappy punters.
However for a number of reasons Cairngorm will always be Scotlands flag ship resort - due mainly to the accommodation and facilities in Aviemore plus the longer season in the Cairngorms. Aviemore is the closest we have to a proper ski town in the UK.


Yep, that is the problem. The often made rebuttal that Cairngorm's loss is somehow a win for Gencoe, Glenshee, Nevis and Lecht really doesn't stack up.

Of course, there's already a 186 page long forum thread discussing the issues ... http://www.winterhighland.info/forum/list.php?2
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Quote:
However for a number of reasons Cairngorm will always be Scotlands flag ship resort - due mainly to the accommodation and facilities in Aviemore plus the longer season in the Cairngorms. Aviemore is the closest we have to a proper ski town in the UK.


I'm not sure about the accommodation argument. Fort William serves Nevis Range and Glencoe yet the hotel we use does not open until Easter Puzzled
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^ Historically Fort William is an industrial town (based around the paper mill, fishing and iron smelt).
Aviemore on the other hand was built and developed around year round tourism, including skiing.

For many reasons Nevis Range only attracts about 20-30K skiers a year.
In comparison Cairngorm in a good year can attract 200K skier days.....
Though in the past (when all lifts were intact) they could attract 300-400K in the 1980s.


Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 5-01-15 11:34; edited 1 time in total
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moffatross wrote:


No, it really wasn't anywhere near as simple as that. Do some background reading. Laughing


TBF I CBA, but if you're saying only one organisation was able to bid/get involved then that's odd.
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northernsoulboy wrote:
moffatross wrote:

No, it really wasn't anywhere near as simple as that. Do some background reading. Laughing

TBF I CBA, but if you're saying only one organisation was able to bid/get involved then that's odd.


I think the main problem is that the winning bid (Natural Retreats) probably wasn't selected for any benefit they will bring to snowsports ?
Their proposed "investment" is more retail facilities at 4000ft rather than badly needed improvements to the neglected uplift.
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£34.50 seems fine to me - far less than snowdomes charge. I'd expect to pay £20 for a dry slope couple of hours. Queuing seperately for boots and skis is also normal practice as far as I know, including in hire shops in the alps. I'm also very glad to see them forcing folks to double up tbh. Your instructors should have covered that in lessons as it's a necessary skill for any t-bar hill and not that hard if the liftie is exerting themselves to be helpful with the pickup. I do think an hour for equipment is not on though, should have had a few extra staff helping there - its not hard to lure teens to do it in return for free skiing in the off peak hours that day (guess how I spent my teens Wink)

aj x
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Sounds pretty much like my experience there, although that was 18 months ago, so the previous operator. We were walking, and accessing what we assumed to be a mountainside restaurant for a quick snack and a drink before the last stretch to the summit. Seemed to be a right faff - no obvious main door, entry via a fire exit and have to sign in, then sign out to go to the summit, then sign back in again to peruse the shop and get a downlift on the funicular.
I really got the impression that it was just retail and cafe on a mountain with a lift joining the 2 parts. You're either in or out and the only way they want people going in and out is the entrance at the bottom.

I assume it's not like that in winter for skiing/boarding?

Some German tourists were more baffled than us.

Guessing that 400 quid season ticket is only lift access for skiing too, and not an annual funicular season ticket for walking in summer?
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Haggis_Trap wrote:
^ Historically Fort William is an industrial town (based around the paper mill, fishing and iron smelt).
Aviemore on the other hand was built and developed around year round tourism, including skiing.

For many reasons Nevis Range only attracts about 20-30K skiers a year.
In comparison Cairngorm in a good year can attract 200K skier days.....
Though in the past (when all lifts were intact) they could attract 300-400K in the 1980s.


I've always thought that odd, in that Nevis is arguably the most modern \ Alpine like of the Scottish resorts (I've not visited Glenshee) and to my eyes has a lot of potential.

Our experience gives a bit of a clue as to why it isn't as busy, but that's easily fixed with some outward looking customer service. Also, as a visiting tourist I don't have much time for Cairngorm. Glencoe however.... Little Angel
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andy, The restrictions in the summer are not caused by the operators.
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andy wrote:
Sounds pretty much like my experience there, although that was 18 months ago, so the previous operator. We were walking, and accessing what we assumed to be a mountainside restaurant for a quick snack and a drink before the last stretch to the summit. Seemed to be a right faff - no obvious main door, entry via a fire exit and have to sign in, then sign out to go to the summit, then sign back in again to peruse the shop and get a downlift on the funicular.


AFAIK the funicular is meant to be a closed system for non-skiers i.e. you aren't supposed to be able to exit from the top and walk around the plateau. It was a planning condition.
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dogwatch wrote:
andy wrote:
Sounds pretty much like my experience there, although that was 18 months ago, so the previous operator. We were walking, and accessing what we assumed to be a mountainside restaurant for a quick snack and a drink before the last stretch to the summit. Seemed to be a right faff - no obvious main door, entry via a fire exit and have to sign in, then sign out to go to the summit, then sign back in again to peruse the shop and get a downlift on the funicular.


AFAIK the funicular is meant to be a closed system for non-skiers i.e. you aren't supposed to be able to exit from the top and walk around the plateau. It was a planning condition.


I was up there in the summer and thought it strange that I had to sign into the restaurant. That kind of makes sense now, but I find it strange that you can't get a train to the top and then summit Cairngorm. I walked from the car park (strange walking up runs that you'd skied down 6 months earlier and seeing rivers etc that weren't there.) but there must be people who want to summit Cairngorm and perhaps aren't fit enough to do so all the way, so want to get the train up to the ptarmigan?
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£35 seems fine to me..... I wouldn't bat an eyelid paying the same for a round of golf. Can't see a problem to be honest.
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tomb wrote:
£35 seems fine to me..... I wouldn't bat an eyelid paying the same for a round of golf. Can't see a problem to be honest.


If you think you pay at least that to watch a football match or £80+ to watch international rugby and all you do is sit and watch for 80 mins, £35 for a days skiing is good.

The marketer in me is seeing an opportunity I think they are missing. If they knocked £5-£10 off ticket price when there is a low number of lifts open (especially midweek), and positively pushed it, they could increase numbers there whilst maintaining good will. There would also be more income available to spend on food / drink and for their new retail vision.
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£34 is fine if all uplift is running.
At the moment however they only have 2 beginner tows in the top basin - so a token discount might be appropriate ?

Though to be honest there are much bigger issues to be resolved at Cairngorm.
Such as the lack of adequate uplift in Coire Na Ciste or White Lady....
Or the long queues at weekends for tickets / food / ski hire.
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Haggis_Trap wrote:
northernsoulboy wrote:
moffatross wrote:

No, it really wasn't anywhere near as simple as that. Do some background reading. Laughing

TBF I CBA, but if you're saying only one organisation was able to bid/get involved then that's odd.


I think the main problem is that the winning bid (Natural Retreats) probably wasn't selected for any benefit they will bring to snowsports ?
Their proposed "investment" is more retail facilities at 4000ft rather than badly needed improvements to the neglected uplift.


Ah right. I take your point (though note the 'probably') but I assume Highland and Island saw a number of business plans and chose the one they thought would work best. My point remains that anyone who could offer the same money but cheaper lifts and make more profit (or reinvest) was presumably able to bid but didn't (or was rejected).

I guess the investment half way up recognises the fact that there's no point getting thousands more people up a small hill where they'll be left hungry and waiting longer - better to improve the experience of those already going? But it's only a guess.

If moffa is right that they're not meeting the terms of their bid that's naughty.

Must admit I've never been - is there scope for many new runs at some point in the future?
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You know it makes sense.
The funicular must be a huge investment and maintenance load, I guess that is why there is less investment in other lifts. Why on earth they built it instead of maintaining and modernising other lifts I don't know. Funiculars in the Alps were built 40+ years ago (waiting for a more knowledgeable SH to tell me I am wrong!) and all the new developments are high speed cableways of various sorts. Presumably because the resorts got fed up with digging the things out after and during every fall and found the cable solutions were more cost effective.

I will be skiing Glencoe, it is run for sports first and foremost. (and its a cracking ski!)
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
The funicular was a mixed blessing. It can operate in high wind speeds, unlike the chairs it replaced. Plus it attracts lots of summer custom and bus tours.
However the debt from building it crippled them from 2001 thru 2010. Which also happened to be some lean snow years.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Col the Yeti wrote:
The funicular must be a huge investment and maintenance load, I guess that is why there is less investment in other lifts. Why on earth they built it instead of maintaining and modernising other lifts I don't know.


For summer tourism.

Quote:
Funiculars in the Alps were built 40+ years ago (waiting for a more knowledgeable SH to tell me I am wrong!)


I think the ones at Val d'Isere and Tignes are a lot more recent than that.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@northernsoulboy, regarding scope for new runs: As was mentioned, here are a few lifts that have been removed, significantly reducing the skiing experience. But I doubt there are any plans to re-instate these (by any future operator). Having spoken to friends in Aviemore (some of whom were employed by the last company, so their points may be skewed) they are moaning about the total shake up in personnel and lack of experience. One of them told me that the new company had promised to open the ski road every day during the ski season, I have no idea if this is true or not, but if it is then that level of naivety is unacceptable, imho.

p.s. 'The Mountain' starts next monday on BBC Scotland. Showing behind the scenes operations of this resort. Should be good viewing.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Col the Yeti wrote:
I will be skiing Glencoe, it is run for sports first and foremost. (and its a cracking ski!)


And they are not shy to tell you that - their tagline is "Glenshee - Run by Skiers and Snowboarders for Skiers and Snowboarders."
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
Funiculars recently, e.g.

Tignes 1989

Funival 1987

Frachey (Monterosa) ~2010 (?)
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Skiing and Snowboarding in UK is still very much a niche activity. Uplift and associated infrastructure is expensive to fit and maintain whether that be on natural slopes, dry slopes or domes. The majority of money to be made is from lessons, in particular teaching newbies and improvers. If the vociferous and often relatively comfortably off UK skiing fraternity spent a few more quid visiting and supporting UK facilities then the situation maybe different, but they make their choices, excuses or whatever and largely spend abroad. That's fine and that's fact. So current UK uplift prices limit regular family use and therein lies a serious problem for any leisure sector growth and profitability. So don't be too hard on the new operator, they can't be in it to make their fortune.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
Sockitoomee wrote:
Skiing and Snowboarding in UK is still very much a niche activity. Uplift and associated infrastructure is expensive to fit and maintain whether that be on natural slopes, dry slopes or domes. The majority of money to be made is from lessons, in particular teaching newbies and improvers. If the vociferous and often relatively comfortably off UK skiing fraternity spent a few more quid visiting and supporting UK facilities then the situation maybe different, but they make their choices, excuses or whatever and largely spend abroad. That's fine and that's fact. So current UK uplift prices limit regular family use and therein lies a serious problem for any leisure sector growth and profitability. So don't be too hard on the new operator, they can't be in it to make their fortune.


Some reasonable points.

Since the funicular was built (i.e 2001 onwards) the snowsport operations on Cairngorm have been deliberately scaled back in favor of non skiing, year round, tourist trade.
Of course if you provide less uplift and make a strategic business decision to limit operation of half your terrain (i.e Coire na Ciste frequently remaining closed compared to the old days) then skiers number will be reduced over time. Is this cause or effect ? The financial figures would question the merits of marginalising snowsports in favor of summer trade....

Natural Retreats long term plan is to invest £4 million in retail facilities.
None of this will really benefit snowsports directly or improve uplift capacity.
Indeed new shops on Cairngorm will just take existing trade away from stores in Aviemore.
To benefit the local community they should be focusing more on increasing skiers numbers back to what they were in the 1990s and early 2000s.
Rather than deliberately reducing the ski area over time until its just the funicular and top basin left.
Ironically in recent years Cairngorm has had a good run of some of its snowiest winters ever.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:

in recent years Cairngorm has had a good run of some of its snowiest winters ever


Indeed and remotely it appears that snow management is increasingly effective.

Why not a shift to a more NA model of limited uplift accessing more terrain - i.e. iirc there's a lot of terrain that could be "pisted" and made accessible from existing uplift??
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Quote:

£34.50 seems fine to me


Me too. Good value compared to a cinema ticket (£15) or a swim at a council pool (£10) or a visit to any other tourist attraction or snowdome!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
under a new name wrote:
Quote:

in recent years Cairngorm has had a good run of some of its snowiest winters ever

Indeed and remotely it appears that snow management is increasingly effective.
Why not a shift to a more NA model of limited uplift accessing more terrain - i.e. iirc there's a lot of terrain that could be "pisted" and made accessible from existing uplift??


Perhaps with some new modern lifts this could work.
Since they removed the White Lady T-Bar, WW Chair, Ciste Chair and Aonach poma, Fiaciall T-Bar, Link Poma (6 lifts!) the current uplift simply cant cope with busy weekends any longer.

The save the ciste web site is worth a look for more information on current issues.

http://savetheciste.com/campaign/the-background/
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Despite having some good skiing Cairngorm has been lower down the list of where shall we ski in Scotland for some time for me personally. I've had to stand in long queues at Glenshee, Glencoe and Cairngorm. At Glenshee and Glencoe I always got the impression they were trying to serve you as quickly as possible and were aware of the long wait, it always feels a bit like they can't be arsed at Cairngorm although granted I haven't been there for a few years. Glenshee and Glencoe also usually reduce ticket prices when the whole mountain isn't open.

Has the adult season pass price not massively increased in price though? That sounds similar to the all area pass?

The rest of the complaints I have less sympathy with. It's pretty easy now to get an idea online of what conditions are going to be like, what runs and tows will be open and how busy the resort will be. The thing about doubling up is just ridiculous as well, it's not easier to go up alone, whether you are a skier or a boarder, it's much easier to balance on T bar with someone weighing down the other side.
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