 Poster: A snowHead
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I've started to acquire an over-rotation of the feet when I turn, which is caused by applying pressure to the back of the foot, causing me to skid round the corner instead of carve.
Can anyone suggest an exercise to ensure that I apply pressure to the front of the foot. I can avoid this problem when I concentrate hard on how I apply the pressure to the skis, but as soon as I relax I start over-rotating the feet again.
I am also starting to A frame, which I guess is caused by a combination of the over-rotation along with hip & knee position.
Cheers David
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Need to clarify a few things here. Are the tails of both skis washing out, or just the tail of the outside ski?
Regardless, this symptom of tails washing out is symptomatic of either displacement (ie just pushing your heels laterally) or too much pressure on the front of your boots - causing a light tail to wash out.
To stop the tails washing out you need to continue to steer the skis in the arc, back under you, rather than just pushing the heels out, or stay centered, sometimes even "drive" the skis forward under your CoM so that the skis continue steering in the arc.
The A frame could be many things, ranging from alignment, to muscle training, to moving the inside knee across first.
But all this is pretty hard to diagnose without actually seeing you ski.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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veeeight, The problem is pushing the heels when I want to bend the skis for some reason I've started to press the heels rather than the balls of my feet.
I also noticed that the outside ski is a little behind the inside ski when I turn causing the A frame. I think I need to project my hips forward to ensure that the skis stay level and turn evenly. but I am struggling to drive the outside forward to ensure that the skis remain level. So was wondering if there are any exercises I can try at home that can help drive the outside ski forward.
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davidb, erm...I'm not an instructor, but neither of the problems you report are necessarily problems. The instructor I had for half of last week spent most of his time telling us to do precisely that...to push out the skis with the heels at the start of the turn, and then (as veeeight says) drive the skis forward to complete the turn (this was short swings, mostly off-piste, soft snow or breakable crust). There appear to be different opinions on inside ski lead too: I don't see how it causes any A-framing, as that's all to do with ankle/knee angulation rather than fore-aft positioning, and if you look at the racers on the box at the moment you'll see quite a bit of inside ski lead, so if it's good for them.... 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The instructor I had for half of last week spent most of his time telling us to do precisely that...to push out the skis with the heels at the start of the turn
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Obviously I don't know the context of this (it may have been a drill for something), but this is something I would never teach. You pay like £500 for a pair of high performance skis - why push your heels out to displace the snow? You are not using the skis as it is designed for. My philosophy is to never let anything get in the way of edging. So for short radius turns I aim to get an early edge (show your bases to the folk up the hill) then steer the skis around, using the built-in steering angle (sidecut) to help turn, keeping steering until you are ready to change edges and show your bases up the hill again, on the other side.
My pet hate is seeing people "windscreen wiper" turns down the hill by pushing heels or swinging hips. Doing that is like throwing the skis out, and waiting for them to grip, instead of doing round turns. Sorry. Rant over!!
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The problem is pushing the heels when I want to bend the skis for some reason I've started to press the heels rather than the balls of my feet.
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So.... don't think about pushing your heels out to displace the snow. Are you rushing your turns?
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I also noticed that the outside ski is a little behind the inside ski when I turn
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Without seeing you ski I can't do an accurate diagnosis. But this sounds like you are "countered" with the hip, that is "open" to the hill. Try placing your hips square to the ski.
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So was wondering if there are any exercises I can try at home that can help drive the outside ski forward
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On gentle terrain - as a drill - try pulling back the inside ski - or pushing the outside ski forward deliberately. You will be surprised at the level of increased grip from the outside ski. Doing this drill may induce body roation, but this can be fixed at a later stage.
As I've said before, this remote diagnostic is pretty impossible. What sort of turns, what sort of terrain, maybe there are other fundemental things to fix first......
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| racers on the box at the moment you'll see quite a bit of inside ski lead, so if it's good for them.... |
Lead change happens as a *result* of something else happening, it is not a deliberately (or shouldn't be) induced movement.
Infact - a deliberately induced lead change will result in an outside foot lag - so at the end of the turn a deliberate "switching" will be seen so that the outside foot will be seen to be switching to the new inside foot lead 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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davidb, You wanted an exercise to help. Right, I think you're right - if your weight is on your heels you need to project your hips up and forward to re-centre the wieght. Exercise 1) traverse while hopping only the heels of the ski off the ground (you can't do this at all if you're back)
Exercise 2) ditto hopping only the tips of the skis (to feel how horrid it is when you're really back)
Exercise 3) alternate the two. This will help to to get back in position from being out of it.
Also traverse first on the downhill ski only, then on the uphill ski only, then traverse on uphill ski and roll the foot so as to turn on what will now be the outside ski (this is actually quite hard to do and requires a fair degree of committment). You cannot ski on one ski only if you're out of balance: ergo you beed to be standing correctly to do this too.
These should help a lot.
GrahamN, what on earth were the circumstances you were being taught to push the heels of the skis to start the turn??  I agree 100% with veeeight, on this. Why return to the dark ages. Please expand. I can see no occasion for this except for "adventure" skiing round obstacles. In your case, since you have a tendency to sit back on your heels anyway, I just cannot imagine any circs for teaching you this.
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veeeight, I do most of my skiing on dendrix, which is where the problem has shown up and I can feel aswell as hear the skis scrapping the matting. Although I can get the skis to carve nicely, but have to concentrate hard on not applying the pressure through the heels. The problem doesn't seem to appear when I ski on snow, but I guess this is because the snow build up on the bases is masking the problem.
easiski, Thanks for the tips. I've been doing most of the exercises that you mentioned on a dry ski slope with the exception of turning on one ski (to scared of falling on the hard surface). If I can manage to go (snow) skiing this season I'll invest in some private lessons.
veeeight and easiski thanks for the suggestions.
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davidb,
Disclamier - I'm not a ski instructor.
When my skiing isn't coming together I go through a few exercises which tend to put me back on the right track. Here are some examples .....
1) Are your edge angles the same? With A-framing the inside ski is flatter. Side slipping and then digging in the uphill edges is a good exercise to help recity this. (Make sure you do both sides). If the edge angles are different one ski will hang up (the uphill ski runs into the downhill or the uphill ski hangs up and you do the splits. Watch technically expert skiers on the TV (e.g. Benni Raich, Giorgio Rocca) and look at their edge angles.
2) Try doing a short turn from a standstill on one leg - work until both legs are equal (one is normally stronger/better than the other).
3) Try doing a turn but putting more weight on your inside ski, then try making a turn only on the inside ski.
4) Try thinking that you are standing on a knife edge where the pressure is down into the snow and not a scrapping of the snow.
Yes I probably look physically and mentally challenged while doing this exercises but they help my turns.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Tue 20-12-05 15:29; edited 2 times in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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davidb, ah....for Dendix and on-piste then I'd certainly agree with our more illustrious contributors. The other exercise I use in an effort to keep a bit more forward than (as easiski says) my usual back-seat stance is jump turns keeping the tips on the mat. I'm also working fairly regularly on one-foot stuff - which really does improve balance, obviously side-to-side, but less obviously you really notice the lack of control when the fore-aft balance is out - instant and definite feedback! I'm up to managing a verticale atm but offset gates are still beyond me. Start with just going straight down a seam, then try adding an inside-edge turn, then (when going fairly slowly) try straightening back down the hill on the outside edge. Work up from there. It took me a couple of half-hour sessions of repeated cycles round the bottom half of our main slope to get up to making 1 mat wide turns, although they're still not really reliable. Once you're more confident a bit more speed does help though and you can start doing more GSy type turns and get more away from the fall line. (And the bruises do fade eventually!)
easiski, veeeight, the instructor concerned is almost exclusively interested in off-piste, and he was teaching us techiniques with that in mind. On-piste he was more ski-radius-oriented, although still not an out-and-out carver - e.g. he would start nearly every turn with a small counter. The off-piste conditions at the beginning of last week alternated between pretty soft powder and breakable wind-crust over soft snow (and very rocky  ). For the soft stuff he was telling us to dip the heels to make a platform in the snow from which we could then drive the skis round in the turn. For the crust it was basically the same, but much more agressively so we would punch through the crust. I have to say it worked pretty well, and I felt far more secure in breakable crust that I ever have before (to the extent that I didn't really notice it - but it wasn't too hard).
Q for the team! Isn't "adventure skiing" what off-piste is all about? - threading your way through boulder fields, forests, gullies etc. So if you need to make a 5m radius turn (which I would say is typical for this type of skiing) and you have a pair of 21m radius skis - how do you do it? Even tipping the skis at 80 degrees (and I certainly wouldn't try doing that in that terrain) you're not going to get much below a 10-12m radius turn. So you can't do it just with the sidecut, and if you're hard on the edges there's not a lot else on offer - is there?.
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| In your case, since you have a tendency to sit back on your heels anyway, I just cannot imagine any circs for teaching you this. |
 Well yes, that was the bit I had no trouble with! Recentering later in the turn I did have a bit more trouble with - along with the continual admonitions to stand up more (except when I did, and then I needed to be lower). But from the aching on the front of my shins towards the end of the week though I can't have been in the back-seat all week  .
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If you look closely the over rotation of Lawrence's foot can clearly be seen
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Although I can get the skis to carve nicely, but have to concentrate hard on not applying the pressure through the heels.
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That statement is incongrous, but perhaps a discussion for a later date!
At a high performance level - skiers/racers, in order to ensure that they stay carving throughout the turn (and not skid the tails) will change the fore/aft relationship between their feet and their center of mass. Put very very crudely - at the start of the turn there will be more pressure on the front of the boots to engage the tip, and at the end of the turn there will he more pressure on the tails of the skis (and therefore the heels) to ensure they stay gripping, and therefore carving, and therefore not skidding nor washing out.
Look at Spencer )below). OK he is overdoing it, but look at the amount of grip the tails have to ensure he doesn't wash away, the tips are way above the snow!!! This is an extreme representation of the point above.
(and look at how much inside foot lead there isn't  the tips are practically level)
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So if you need to make a 5m radius turn (which I would say is typical for this type of skiing) and you have a pair of 21m radius skis - how do you do it? ........ So you can't do it just with the sidecut, and if you're hard on the edges there's not a lot else on offer - is there? |
Steer. Steer the skis using a blend of foot rotation, edging, and pressure control. Still in an arc shape. You don't have to rely exclusively on the sidecut radius to turn!
I'm not dissing your instructor, I don't know the true intentions nor aims. If it works for you, keep it as one of your tools! All I'm saying is that I don't think it's the most efficient/effective method. But I don't know the circumstances.
In my personal skiing (and in my teaching) I will always aim to create round turns. Even at the 41 degree Couloir Extreme off piste - I will TURN down this. Not slam my edges in. On variable terrain - I will aim for smooth round turns, big or small, and if it's breakable, have light feet.
I'm not saying I never slam my edges is, but this is only for a recovery, or a mini hockey stop to check speed when approaching gullies etc, or to avoid that pesky rock!
Use the analogy of having just paid £45,000 for a brand new high performance saloon car. Why are you yanking on the handbrake, yanking on the steering wheel to get the back of the car around, then waiting/engaging the grip to go around the corner? Surely it's much better to steer around the corners smoothly, using the steering wheel, and the accelerator to modulate the power (pressure control)?
Even in rallying - where it looks like they spend their time going sideways - actually the fastest and therefore most efficient method is to minimise the amount of time they spend going sideways as this scrubs their speed off - and what they are actually doing is searching for maximum grip around the course, picking the racing line.
When they do deliberately drift the car around sideways this is for the exit line around the obstacle, and to carry the momentum through - and there is an equivalent manouvre in skiing - it's called Bode's "Drift and Lock" or "Stivot" or "Pitching" or whatever. He will drift the skis around the gate at high speed, then engage the edges and control the ensuing high pressure to jet him off into the new direction. But don't try this at home folks.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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veeeight,
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Although I can get the skis to carve nicely, but have to concentrate hard on not applying the pressure through the heels.
That statement is incongrous, but perhaps a discussion for a later date!
At a high performance level - skiers/racers, in order to ensure that they stay carving throughout the turn (and not skid the tails) will change the fore/aft relationship between their feet and their center of mass. Put very very crudely - at the start of the turn there will be more pressure on the front of the boots to engage the tip, and at the end of the turn there will he more pressure on the tails of the skis (and therefore the heels) to ensure they stay gripping, and therefore carving, and therefore not skidding nor washing out.
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Sorry I should have said applying pressure through the heel to initiate the turn. Thanks for the explaination and picture it certainly describes you point about transfering the pressure throughout the turn.
easiski, I ski at the dry slope in Stoke, but haven't had time to go regularly in the last few months as I am busy writing my PhD thesis, which is just about finished and I'll be submitting it after the Christmas break. So I should be able to spend more time skiing.
I'll try to make the EOSB, but can't be sure where I'll be in April.
Is there a cut off date to book?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Try initiating the turn with your big toe (or better yet, think of using the little toe of your inside foot to start the turn, then use the big toe). If you think of the turns starting with your toes, then that should help get you off your heels.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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easiski, trying to ski with your weight back and your tips off the ground is hilarious. It usually ends with me veering off the side of the piste in an uncontrolled heap, much to the amusement of those around me.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Just a point for those people muttering about side-cut turn radius. The figure quoted is for an unloaded ski (AFAIBT). Applying controlled pressure will bend the skis and shorten the radius dramatically. . . as illustrated in the photo above. If anyone has read any of Ott Gangl's writing they'd know that people were carving wooden skis in leather boots 70 years ago . . . that and enjoying a pert bum as well. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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easiski, I'll try and get a good picture for you. I usually do it to try and demonstrate why keeping your weight down the hill is a good idea to my less experienced friends.
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FAQ
