 Poster: A snowHead
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maybe they should create an app.... people have become so fused to their Apps to tell them when it's ok to scratch their backsides i'm sure if they had an app it would make most people feel more connected to the world they live in, oddly.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Having recently had a chat with a crystal rep in a resort it transpired that i knew a lot more about the resort after being there 2 days than he did, and while he was a very nice and helpfull fellow as i chatted and probed his ability it became clear that this was his first time ever in the mountains,and what he had learned was during his "" training with crystal in the uk".
Clearly somebody like this can not deal with with the problems that turned up this week end .
The assumption is that a major tour operator has experianced people on the ground that can deal with and alleviate problems as they arise
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Insiders wrote: |
everything is always 'someone else's problem'
Global warming.... someone else's problem
Bins get collected.... someone else's problem
Taking responsibility for yourself, your family and your needs.... someone else's problem
At what point did humans become so useless! |
Well said. But are you and TTT related somehow ?
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=114639&start=40#2636799
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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For the record, the TO MUST provide food/water and accommodation in the case of a delay. This is not a customer satisfaction issue it is a legal requirement, one which it is frankly quite easy to fulfil. If they fail to do do they should be taken to task. Also, this attitude of "it's your choice to have kids, so everything to do with them is your responsibility" is extremely selfish, unpleasant and one of the major reasons we don't have the sport of cohesion in society that many who take that attitude seem to bemoan. We all have responsibility to do our best to look after ourselves and our families but that does not at all mean TOs can abrogate their responsibilities.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| moffatross wrote: |
| Insiders wrote: |
everything is always 'someone else's problem'
Global warming.... someone else's problem
Bins get collected.... someone else's problem
Taking responsibility for yourself, your family and your needs.... someone else's problem
At what point did humans become so useless! |
Well said. But are you and TTT related somehow ?
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=114639&start=40#2636799 |
I know no TTT, but he sounds like a smart guy
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| zikomo wrote: |
| For the record, the TO MUST provide food/water and accommodation in the case of a delay. This is not a customer satisfaction issue it is a legal requirement, one which it is frankly quite easy to fulfil. If they fail to do do they should be taken to task. Also, this attitude of "it's your choice to have kids, so everything to do with them is your responsibility" is extremely selfish, unpleasant and one of the major reasons we don't have the sport of cohesion in society that many who take that attitude seem to bemoan. We all have responsibility to do our best to look after ourselves and our families but that does not at all mean TOs can abrogate their responsibilities. |
I fail to see how someone elses child is somehow MY responsibility
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| omas brumm wrote: |
Having recently had a chat with a crystal rep in a resort it transpired that i knew a lot more about the resort after being there 2 days than he did, and while he was a very nice and helpfull fellow as i chatted and probed his ability it became clear that this was his first time ever in the mountains,and what he had learned was during his "" training with crystal in the uk".
Clearly somebody like this can not deal with with the problems that turned up this week end .
The assumption is that a major tour operator has experianced people on the ground that can deal with and alleviate problems as they arise |
The one time I worked for a TO (nb, not crystal), they do, and so do the other ones, there's usually always a resort manager or area manager dealing with the overall picture.
But, I have to ask, what would you expect them to do? The coaches were stuck on the roads. No planes could fly in or out. There was no way of moving people.
Just because someone might have worked there before doesn't mean they'd be able to magic up things that don't exist. The storm swamped the people who live and work out there all the time, the people most prepared for it, why do you think someone there for only a few months of the year would be better prepared or better able to cope?
The whole incident was a perfect storm of things happening at just the wrong time.
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The majority of reps I've come across are friendly and enthusiastic. They also tend to be quite young and inexperienced. Good when things go well.Sometimes less strong when things go wrong. Many (not all) of them are good at cleaning chalets, baking cakes, dealing with grumpy clients and running pub crawls as well as getting in the hours on the slopes. Some of them are there more for the good times, skiing, making friends and socialising than they are planning logistics and communications, establishing contingency plans, setting up emergency stocks and building networks of local work contacts, drilling and exercising for when things go wrong. Some work really hard, some are slightly lazy.
Crystal and many other Tour Operators run quite a complex set of logistics, but they do it on a budget. It's cheaper to hire the type of reps they do. It would cost more to hire people with extensive experience and that would be passed on to the customer. The difficulty I guess is the mismatch of expectations and the reality that tour operators (and reps) will on occasion have to deal with situations which outstrip what they have planned for. I rarely use TOs, but when I have I've been impressed with how they managed a tricky hand (in my case Ski World getting everyone back pretty smoothly from the Ash Cloud).
So it sounds like the OP was disappointed. Poor communication always makes a bad situation worse. But perhaps people should be a bit more circumspect about what they really expect a TO is going to offer for the price they are paying (perhaps TOs should be a bit more transparent about what customers can really expect when things get tricky, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that one). I'm kinda with the rule 5 gang on this one.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| thecramps wrote: |
| Shimmy Alcott wrote: |
| @thecramps, they are being paid to get their customers to their destination - if they have advance warning of really bad weather conditions (they did) then it would make sense to have contingency plans for huge delays. I dont think some water and basic snacks are much of an ask in this kind of situation. It would make basic commercial sense. |
Quite true, but difference is I realise that when I am paying budget prices I expect budget service. If I paid top notch I would whinge, but most Crystal holidays are budget, so rule 5 applies.
We've been praying for snow for weeks, and now we get some, people are complaining.
Man up or write to the Daily Mail.
You take extra stuff, and I agree that maybe TO's should plan better sometimes, but you get what you pay for, so expecting them too provide is too much IMV. The better ones will, but others won't. My point is, if you pay budget, don't expect 1st class.
Complaining about stuff when you have arrived, whether you did it yourself or your TO got you there seems a bit desperate to me. |
Yes, the Hotel Les Grandes Alpes that I stayed in with Crystal in Courchevel 1850 was very budget.
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| Randomsabreur wrote: |
| We always seem to have water left to bin/down at the airport at the end of the week (don't risk resort tap water) |
Eh? You're in Europe's second wealthiest country (GDP greater than UK, 2008-2012, source Wikipedia) and you think the tap water won't be drinkable in resort?
That must be the most extraordinary post on this extraordinary thread. I'm amazed you're prepared to travel abroad at all!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Last used a tour operator for skiing or any other holiday in 1982. I have had absolutely no issues with any tour operator since! Simple solution to the problem
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| thecramps wrote: |
| @Shimmy Alcott, and being someone who "would never use a TO", why bother in this thread anyway? |
1. Show me where I have said that I would "never use a TO".
2. If you read my earlier comment as to why I havent used a TO for ages then you might, just might, see why this thread is very relevant to me.
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| twoodwar wrote: |
| Last used a tour operator for skiing or any other holiday in 1982. I have had absolutely no issues with any tour operator since! Simple solution to the problem |
My last self-arranged Alps trip was 10 years ago. Never again. I know exactly what I'll get with a tour operator (flights, transfers, 6 days breakfast, evening meal and cheap wine) and that even if the roads are gridlocked I won't have to pay twice.
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You know it makes sense.
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I was actually pleasantly surprised at the level of communication with the Company we had last minute (on the Sat morning) booked a catered chalet with. Travelling from Morzine to La Tania should have been only a 2 -4 hour journey. Each time I phoned to let them know we would be getting there later and later I was given more information about the situation and there was someone answering the phones even in the early hours. We were greeted at the top of the hill by the resort manager around 3 -3.30 am and shown where to go. The chalet staff had been up since 5am firstly trying to get folk down the mountain, then waiting for arrivals, yet still provided us with food, drink and a warm welcome. I know most of them were up most of the night because everyone due to arrive that day arrived in dribs and drabs for the rest of the night and into the next day.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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So @zikomo, if a coach is stuck amongst hundreds of other vehicles somewhere along a motorway, hiw the devil ar the TOs meant to get supplies to people...fair enough if you;re talking about being stuck at an airport, but hundreds if not thousands were stranded en route to or from resort or the airport. So what do you expect the TOs do then?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
Eh? You're in Europe's second wealthiest country (GDP greater than UK, 2008-2012, source Wikipedia) and you think the tap water won't be drinkable in resort?
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I don't either - have read (possibly on here, but can't swear to it) reports of dodgy water in resorts due to the chemicals used for snow making getting into supply. May well be a myth, but for the price of a few litres of water in resort I'm not going to risk being ill for my one and only precious week skiing.
Back to budget comments - our total spend for Xmas week last year was £3200 for family of 5, but that wasn't via TO so not comparable.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Insiders,
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I fail to see how someone elses child is somehow MY responsibility
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If you are a TO then every passenger is your responsibility.
As for the banal comments about people looking after themselves; that's what they have paid the TO for. The customers didn't set the price, they have no idea nor should they care how much margin the TO is operating with. If the TO needs to make more to provide an adequate service then they should raise the price and then the customer would decide whether or not they pay it. The TO offered a service, it was paid for, they failed, end of.
These are winter TOs we're talking about!!!!!! Have they never come across a snow blocked road or a closed airport in the whole of their business experience??? The fact is it's cheaper to do nothing, because the financial cost of the small number of customers that they absolutely have to compensate is peanuts.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| jocrad wrote: |
| So @zikomo, if a coach is stuck amongst hundreds of other vehicles somewhere along a motorway, hiw the devil ar the TOs meant to get supplies to people...fair enough if you;re talking about being stuck at an airport, but hundreds if not thousands were stranded en route to or from resort or the airport. So what do you expect the TOs do then? |
the bad weather was forecast - so much so that a sensible SH left resort the day before to avoid being caught up in the likely chaos. As such I dont think its too much to ask for TO to have a case of water and some snacks handy.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| mozwold wrote: |
| The TO offered a service, it was paid for, they failed, end of. |
No matter how many exclamation marks you put into your posts, it still won't make the above statement true.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| nozawaonsen wrote: |
The majority of reps I've come across are friendly and enthusiastic. They also tend to be quite young and inexperienced. Good when things go well.Sometimes less strong when things go wrong. Many (not all) of them are good at cleaning chalets, baking cakes, dealing with grumpy clients and running pub crawls as well as getting in the hours on the slopes. Some of them are there more for the good times, skiing, making friends and socialising than they are planning logistics and communications, establishing contingency plans, setting up emergency stocks and building networks of local work contacts, drilling and exercising for when things go wrong. Some work really hard, some are slightly lazy.
Crystal and many other Tour Operators run quite a complex set of logistics, but they do it on a budget. It's cheaper to hire the type of reps they do. It would cost more to hire people with extensive experience and that would be passed on to the customer. The difficulty I guess is the mismatch of expectations and the reality that tour operators (and reps) will on occasion have to deal with situations which outstrip what they have planned for. I rarely use TOs, but when I have I've been impressed with how they managed a tricky hand (in my case Ski World getting everyone back pretty smoothly from the Ash Cloud).
So it sounds like the OP was disappointed. Poor communication always makes a bad situation worse. But perhaps people should be a bit more circumspect about what they really expect a TO is going to offer for the price they are paying (perhaps TOs should be a bit more transparent about what customers can really expect when things get tricky, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that one). I'm kinda with the rule 5 gang on this one. |
+1
I did write a whole long reply, but then I realised I was just saying the same thing.
From what I've seen on here and on Facebook it looks like a lot of the issues arose due to poor communications from management so not necessarily the rep's fault in many cases.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| James the Last wrote: |
| Randomsabreur wrote: |
| We always seem to have water left to bin/down at the airport at the end of the week (don't risk resort tap water) |
Eh? You're in Europe's second wealthiest country (GDP greater than UK, 2008-2012, source Wikipedia) and you think the tap water won't be drinkable in resort?
That must be the most extraordinary post on this extraordinary thread. I'm amazed you're prepared to travel abroad at all! |
James, I assume you've never heard of (for example) Val D'Isease?
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Can I suggest Benidorm next winter ?
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@CaravanSkier, What Company was that please??
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Kenzie wrote: |
James, I assume you've never heard of (for example) Val D'Isease? |
That's usually STD? "freshers' flu"? Norovirus?
Or are you meaning Typhoid, Cholera or Giardia etc., the result of polluted drinking water?
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@Shimmy Alcott, You didn't say that, I exaggerated I admit. You did say you hadn't used a TO for years though. Still not sure why one bad trip with a TO makes you boycott them all. We had a bad one with Crystal, and haven't used them since, but still happy with a TO package.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Mon 29-12-14 15:02; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The way I understood Val d'Isease - and I've had it in one of its forms - is that it's usually a virus of some description that parades like wildfire throughout resort, which was the case with us - nothing, I would have thought or hoped, to do with drinking the local water, which we have always done in France, Portugal and Spain.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I bet all these people who complain about the drinking water don't think twice about having a shower in the exact same water... If it would get you ill one way it'll get you ill the other way too.
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| mozwold wrote: |
@Insiders,
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I fail to see how someone elses child is somehow MY responsibility
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If you are a TO then every passenger is your responsibility.
As for the banal comments about people looking after themselves; that's what they have paid the TO for. The customers didn't set the price, they have no idea nor should they care how much margin the TO is operating with. If the TO needs to make more to provide an adequate service then they should raise the price and then the customer would decide whether or not they pay it. The TO offered a service, it was paid for, they failed, end of.
These are winter TOs we're talking about!!!!!! Have they never come across a snow blocked road or a closed airport in the whole of their business experience??? The fact is it's cheaper to do nothing, because the financial cost of the small number of customers that they absolutely have to compensate is peanuts. |
I suppose an out break of common sense to take your own snacks and water is FAR too much to ask for some humans...
How are you supposed to get A. Water on the coach when no one can get on the roads to go and buy water? B. Find those on the coach alternative accommodation when you can't get on the road to get to it?
I guess someone who has all the answers for life, the universe and everything will be along shortly. I do not see it as being the TO's fault that there were SO many problems they literally could not move. It's hardly like they weren't doing anything, more like they couldn't do anything. Just because you see 'nothing being done' when you're on a coach in the middle of some place doesn't mean there aren't hoards of people trying to work behind the scene to address problems, just because you can't see it in front of your face doesn't mean it's not there - but that is the problem with a lot of guests - Out of sight, out of Mind.
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You know it makes sense.
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I've had great service from reps from other companies. On one trip, they accompanied my young son to the hospital when he fell and needed stitches, helping with the translation. On another, they organised the transfer to a local hospital after another son was knocked-out on piste, and followed-up the same evening and next day. In both cases, this was beyond what I would reasonably expect and a complete contrast to the Crystal shrugging of shoulders that we got on our transfer.
It's a good thing we're not immigrants or that would have ticked all the prejudice boxes, not just the 'I hate children' ones! My point wasn't that I expected someone else to cater for my children, it was that having paid a TO to provide a transfer, it was reasonable to expect a contingency of water and hopefully, some food - for every customer. And that given this is their business, anyone doing regular transfers would expect a serious delay at least once in a season.
Clearly, Crystal judge that the money they save through not training and supporting their reps or doing contingency planning outweighs the customers they lose as a result. Statistically, I can see the logic - this sort of event happens only once every five years or so, and a less serious problem perhaps only once per season. So it makes sense to pocket the money rather than provide good service.
I'm with those who say that people expect 'someone' to take responsibility instead of them. We no longer use TOs and organise everything ourselves. If I don't pack enough supplies, or bring the chains, etc. then it's definitely no one's fault but mine. But I'm not charging other people for a service. If I pay a TO to do something, then I expect them to do it better than me, not say "Well, who could have expected that?" when something entirely predictable happens.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Mon 29-12-14 15:41; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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This is what happens when you expect SO much for not a lot of dosh - manage your expectations, take provisions, else you'll start complaining that they didn't have hot food and hot drinks or that they ONLY had ready salted crisps and your little poppet doesn't like ready salted crisps - quick complain! it's someone else's problem that I don't like the food you're serving me in this emergency situation! P - lease
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Poster: A snowHead
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It may be 'not a lot of dosh' to you, but it was for me. Clearly, we are from very different social groups.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| msej449 wrote: |
| It may be 'not a lot of dosh' to you, but it was for me. Clearly, we are from very different social groups. |
Just because to you 'it's a lot dosh' doesn't mean it actually is - to me, £1000 is a LOT of money, but that doesn't mean it actually is A LOT of money.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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If you had gone DIY you would have been stuck in the same situation as those on the TO bus. Except you would probably have ended up out of pocket by missing your flight. I don't know what peoples' expectations of service are. All this talk of budget/luxury Crystal packages are irrelevant as you all share the same bus to get you to your budget/luxury accommodation (maybe only supply water to those in Crystal Finest Hotels? - and watch the budgeteers go thirsty).
We always bring our own snacks if we feel hungry (or more often than not the hotel supplies a packed breakfast/lunch). When driving about in the winter months do you keep a multipack of water bottles aboard?
Why not, in the comments section, of your CSQ suggest water is kept on board. Rather than moan on the internet. Then change is more likely to happen.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| dode wrote: |
If you had gone DIY you would have been stuck in the same situation as those on the TO bus. Except you would probably have ended up out of pocket by missing your flight. I don't know what peoples' expectations of service are. All this talk of budget/luxury Crystal packages are irrelevant as you all share the same bus to get you to your budget/luxury accommodation (maybe only supply water to those in Crystal Finest Hotels? - and watch the budgeteers go thirsty).
We always bring our own snacks if we feel hungry (or more often than not the hotel supplies a packed breakfast/lunch). When driving about in the winter months do you keep a multipack of water bottles aboard?
Why not, in the comments section, of your CSQ suggest water is kept on board. Rather than moan on the internet. Then change is more likely to happen. |
It's not about 'only rich people get water' - although, i'm sure that happens in some places. It's about the fact that people seem to take absolutely - and I mean ABSOLUTLEY - No responsibility for themselves because they've paid for some service which was MASSIVELY affected by an unprecedented AND totally unpredictable situation... because i'm 100% SURE that Crystal decided to kill that man by forcing his car off the road to give themselves these headaches.
People generally need to manage their expectations about what can be done in a Stranded situation, Stranded.... not the corner shop is just there with an empty hotel next to it... Stranded... means unable to leave somewhere because of a problem...
If you'd've gone DIY, yes you might have missed your flight, but there would only be yourself to blame for your short-sightedness for NOT taking food and water with you...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| zikomo wrote: |
| For the record, the TO MUST provide food/water and accommodation in the case of a delay. This is not a customer satisfaction issue it is a legal requirement, one which it is frankly quite easy to fulfil. If they fail to do do they should be taken to task. Also, this attitude of "it's your choice to have kids, so everything to do with them is your responsibility" is extremely selfish, unpleasant and one of the major reasons we don't have the sport of cohesion in society that many who take that attitude seem to bemoan. We all have responsibility to do our best to look after ourselves and our families but that does not at all mean TOs can abrogate their responsibilities. |
"MUST"? From what I have read, and seen in TV, the TOs were simply not able to provide food, water and accommodation, no matter what legal obligation they may have had. Possibly customers have some financial redress available, but common sense says that if you are about set off on the road in dodgy conditions, taking food and water with you is advisable.
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| achilles wrote: |
| zikomo wrote: |
| For the record, the TO MUST provide food/water and accommodation in the case of a delay. This is not a customer satisfaction issue it is a legal requirement, one which it is frankly quite easy to fulfil. If they fail to do do they should be taken to task. Also, this attitude of "it's your choice to have kids, so everything to do with them is your responsibility" is extremely selfish, unpleasant and one of the major reasons we don't have the sport of cohesion in society that many who take that attitude seem to bemoan. We all have responsibility to do our best to look after ourselves and our families but that does not at all mean TOs can abrogate their responsibilities. |
"MUST"? From what I have read, and seen in TV, the TOs were simply not able to provide food, water and accommodation, no matter what legal obligation they may have had. Possibly customers have some financial redress available, but common sense says that if you are about set off on the road in dodgy conditions, taking food and water with you is advisable. |
bosh
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Is all this fuss just because some people were a bit thirsty?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
but common sense says that if you are about set off on the road in dodgy conditions, taking food and water with you is advisable.
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very true.
Seems sensible to me that the TO should follow this advice too.
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| Quote: |
everything is always 'someone else's problem'
Global warming.... someone else's problem
Bins get collected.... someone else's problem
Taking responsibility for yourself, your family and your needs.... someone else's problem
At what point did humans become so useless!
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Actually it's just the British - I get people from all over the place in summer and the Brits are noticeably way more whiny and high-maintenance. Sorry.
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FAQ
