 Poster: A snowHead
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You can have your whistle, I'll stick with my radio 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@philwig, I have no friends so a radio would be no good 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| Nevermind the avalung - how many of you ski with a whistle on the top of your zipper you can try to get in your mouth while your hands are trapped? It's 50p protection |
You know full well... whistles only attract yet more marmottes!!!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Scarpa, PMSL 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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So yeah, carrying a whistle/avalung/other-safety-toy/powder-ribbon/ice-tools/ascenders/defibrillator/woolly-underpants can hardly make you less safe, so you may as well buy them all and lug them around. This effect is multiplied if a celebrity should die and not be found to have been using whatever your pet magic device it is. Well actually they may well be using it, and they may well not actually be riding in trees, but it's all the same from the perspective of a journalist. Behaving as if the trees could kill you is unnecessary: just buy more stuff.
Actually, never mind tree wells. Three seasons ago an original growth cedar fell on a lass I rode with in BC. Trees don't always fall in the woods when no one's there. She was crushed into the snow cartoon fashion. She did have an airspace, and they dug her out pretty quickly. She's not a banker so no Avalungs were harmed. It was I think too close to call so no one took any photographs, which is a shame as she was fine and still rides.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@philwig, Will she be riding cocooned in a Zorb this season then?!
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@philwig, your fundamental point is sound that behaviour trumps kit every time when it comes to safety but by denigrating anyone who buys stuff you're losing your message. You do come across rather Goldsmithian : a generation ago you might have been rubbishing transceivers as an expensive scam for gadget freaks when a simple length if cord would suffice.
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| Quote: |
Three seasons ago an original growth cedar fell on a lass I rode with in BC.
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So not a tree well, but not a well tree...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
how many of you ski with a whistle on the top of your zipper you can try to get in your mouth while your hands are trapped?
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Have one clipped to the shoulder strap on my pack.
DO radios work down tree wells? would have thought signal might struggle
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| PaulC1984 wrote: |
| @ALQ, well i do have a black ruroc so im darf vader! |
Oh no!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| @philwig, your fundamental point is sound that behaviour trumps kit every time when it comes to safety but by denigrating anyone who buys stuff you're losing your message. You do come across rather Goldsmithian : a generation ago you might have been rubbishing transceivers as an expensive scam for gadget freaks when a simple length if cord would suffice. |
My point is that the important thing is the risk/benefit ratio of any "safety" device.
If you have data which show the usefulness of Avalungs in tree wells, I'd be delighted to learn from it and if necessary my opinion would change.
It's easy to show the risk/ benefit of transceivers, so to "rubbish" them would be to fly in the face of the data. That's precisely the opposite of what I'm suggesting. I guess I am failing to get my point across. It's all good.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Yeah I've got no data on Avalungs in treewells and wouldn't really go for one either. I've got no data on whistles either other than a Canadian mate advised me once that it was a good idea and it makes sense to me in any SAR context particularly as it costs sod all and has collateral benefits as a grab tab for your zipper, massage for your chin when you've got a wriggle on and being able to draw the attention of a skier above you when you've beatered down a steep pow slope and really don't want to posthole up for your lost ski.
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@Rishie, Sorry mate, and you have to ski with me in Tignes
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You know it makes sense.
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Lost my wife down a tree well on a descent near Jackson hole....Nah it wasn't that simple.
It was a lot wider than the one in the clip, it didn't totally collapse, it must have been 4 meters deep, fortunately her skis got caught in the branches toward the top of the hole. It must have taken half an hour for 6 of us to try and untangle her and the pull her out with a rope, we had a fully kitted guide that day as luck would have it.
She wasn't too good after hanging upside down for that long and still has problems with her hip after swinging badly off one ski.
Fortunately the avalung thing wasn't an issue but having ridden with one for four seasons my feeling is that they really are only of use as a psychological prop in situations other than a slab avi where maybe there is time to deploy...You can make mournful animal noises at all other times.
What I learnt from the well episode.
Where possible don't cut around trees too tightly, certainly not in North America ( never seen anything nearly as deep in Europe...scary but not like the American gates of Hadies
Vic' has to be kept calm.
I have no idea how you would get out of this solo
Keep aware of last member of the part at all times...even whooping through trees...radio? Whistle?
Always carry rope or a 120cm sling
Never, ever, ever ski BC with pole straps...but we knew that anyway, right?
Wear your best grundles as your trousers will get pulled off
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Important topic amongst several which too few who ski have so much as a vague idea of whatsoever. I've heard of several who met their maker via tree wells, mostly vagrants/urchins (boarders). Again, it is a subject of serious importance, one that should be echoed extensively.
Years ago I received an object lesson in not going "out on a limb" which most - the adventurous types - pay little attention to. At the time I didn't. I still cannot believe that I am alive and survived that ordeal which was not a tree well. Since then I've taken a path of being less adventurous as it were. Not monumentally, just, dare I say, intelligently. I want to live my life as long as possible. I love winter. I grew up with same. I love many winter activities, obviously skiing amongst several winter sports, but I do not want to put myself into a skiing situation that will earn me a set of wings and a harp. As stated, I came really close............, too, too close to dying and I really should not be alive. I really shouldn't. My surviving still makes no sense. And I was all by myself when Gabriel came by blowing his horn. I told him not now.
I learned.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Yeah, I used to have nightmares about the wells. I did have one memorably bad week riding with a family of bankers who thought avalung noises were amusing all week, which they're not.
I once was shooting pictures when the guy I was shooting landed head first in a huge tree well right in front of me. I asked him if he was ok, he said he was, so I asked if he minded if I kept on shooting until the rest of the group went by. He didn't care, so I shot them all, then went up the slope to dig him out.
I have seen really large hockey playing guides hoik smaller people straight out of wells.
Check the BC court case from last year for the legal status of "buddy" systems. The guide there was probably the best there is.
Whistles.. there's a certain type of person who carries them. A bit like bells on bikes, they're not for me.
I think riding defensively helps too. As a boarder is I think that the traditional "aim for the gaps" advice is sub-optimal. I want my board on edge close to the tree I'm passing, so that if I lose it I go in board first, and I also have the maximum amount of space on the other side. Sort of like "off aiming". That gets me through tight spaces. If you're going to rag doll them you have somewhat less control and may end up anywhere, of course.
I too have never seen anything like the north american stuff in Europe, perhaps I just don't know where to look.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Ok, so this thread has got some really useful stuff in it, especially for those of us who (luckily) have zero experience of tree wells. Can I ask a couple of probably dumb questions...
How common are tree wells, and are there specific conditions that they tend to form in (e.g. late season)?
What's the best rescue strategy? In the original vid posted above I wasn't that convinced that the group were working well as a team (no matter what they seemed to be trying to advertise using the clip), and they didn't obviously know what they were doing. There was a fair bit of digging from a couple of people, quite a lot of standing around from others (or am I missing something?), and eventually they pulled the poor guy out...should they have just gone for pulling immediately, or did they need the digging to get close enough to get leverage?
Like I said, I have no experience of tree wells and given I really like tree skiing (and Japan) they kinda scare me!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| ChrisWo wrote: |
Ok, so this thread has got some really useful stuff in it, especially for those of us who (luckily) have zero experience of tree wells. Can I ask a couple of probably dumb questions...
How common are tree wells, and are there specific conditions that they tend to form in (e.g. late season)?
What's the best rescue strategy? In the original vid posted above I wasn't that convinced that the group were working well as a team (no matter what they seemed to be trying to advertise using the clip), and they didn't obviously know what they were doing. There was a fair bit of digging from a couple of people, quite a lot of standing around from others (or am I missing something?), and eventually they pulled the poor guy out...should they have just gone for pulling immediately, or did they need the digging to get close enough to get leverage?
Like I said, I have no experience of tree wells and given I really like tree skiing (and Japan) they kinda scare me! |
How do you know the person was not injured and pulling him out would have been dangerious?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| mooney058 wrote: |
| ChrisWo wrote: |
Ok, so this thread has got some really useful stuff in it, especially for those of us who (luckily) have zero experience of tree wells. Can I ask a couple of probably dumb questions...
How common are tree wells, and are there specific conditions that they tend to form in (e.g. late season)?
What's the best rescue strategy? In the original vid posted above I wasn't that convinced that the group were working well as a team (no matter what they seemed to be trying to advertise using the clip), and they didn't obviously know what they were doing. There was a fair bit of digging from a couple of people, quite a lot of standing around from others (or am I missing something?), and eventually they pulled the poor guy out...should they have just gone for pulling immediately, or did they need the digging to get close enough to get leverage?
Like I said, I have no experience of tree wells and given I really like tree skiing (and Japan) they kinda scare me! |
How do you know the person was not injured and pulling him out would have been dangerious? |
You cant. But you also don't know how long they will have air for, so I would think that the quickest way out is the priority.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| SkiG wrote: |
so I would think that the quickest way out is the priority
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Agreed - if you break my leg pulling me out of an inverted 6 foot face-plant I'm still going to thank you!
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| ChrisWo wrote: |
Ok, so this thread has got some really useful stuff in it, especially for those of us who (luckily) have zero experience of tree wells. Can I ask a couple of probably dumb questions...
How common are tree wells, and are there specific conditions that they tend to form in (e.g. late season)?
What's the best rescue strategy? In the original vid posted above I wasn't that convinced that the group were working well as a team (no matter what they seemed to be trying to advertise using the clip), and they didn't obviously know what they were doing. There was a fair bit of digging from a couple of people, quite a lot of standing around from others (or am I missing something?), and eventually they pulled the poor guy out...should they have just gone for pulling immediately, or did they need the digging to get close enough to get leverage?
Like I said, I have no experience of tree wells and given I really like tree skiing (and Japan) they kinda scare me! |
I am pretty certain that the wells are result of the nature of the habit of coniferous trees with desiduous trees normally forming cones rather than wells since there is no foliage to stop snow falling around the base. This then makes Japan largely devoid of the well phenomenon.
My well moment happened late January after heavy snow which actually bridged the top of the hole, they are more apparent later in the season due to melt back.
As for rescue strategy? based on my experience of "situations" if you are lucky there might be a couple of motivated people experienced or otherwise but mostly people stand around waiting for someone to do something. You better hope you got one of the former on the surface if it's you doing the invert... As well as the odd 'hockey player'
If not do the same as avi rescue. Rotate the diggers to keep digging intensity, maintain communication with vic,
I was not wholely unimpressed by the rescue, not too much panic, one leader, motivated grunt work on the shovels.(..when the shovels eventually appeared), constant communication with victim, quick enough not to get involved with CPR when the cork came out of the bottle.
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| ChrisWo wrote: |
...How common are tree wells, and are there specific conditions that they tend to form in (e.g. late season)?
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What's the best rescue strategy? ... |
Personally I've never seen a tree well in Europe, although I didn't particularly go looking. In BC the tree line is at a different level, and the trees look different to my untrained eye. I often ride on 3-5m of base there, and many of the trees are very big (eg old growth). So there's a 3-5m well at the base of every decent sized tree. So that is: if the tree is large, you can be sure there is a well there, in the back country at least. They are there all season, it's just the trees acting like a snow umbrella. I would not get the risk out of proportion though.
The main thing in my view is that they're just holes. So you can jump in one, even dive in head first, and so long as you don't bring a load of snow down on you, you'll be fine. They are surprisingly deep and big. The catch is that if you panic and wriggle or even try to get out you risk bringing snow down on yourself. As I may have said, my personal defence strategy involves snow well entry board-first, which to date has been 100% effective in keeping my head out of them.
Rescue-wise, there are two different perspectives, depending on if you're in the hole or not.
If you're in there, then you should be able to find or make some space to breathe. It's not avalanche snow (see discussion above). You should have time to work out what to do. If you're in a competent group then they will come and get you. If you're only slightly in there you'll probably get yourself out. If you're seriously upside down, or if you took a hit from the tree then you'll probably wait. I've never been inverted in a tree well, but you're in a 3.5m deep funnel, sharing it with only the snow you brought to the party, so I suspect it's darkish and weird but not completely full of snow. You probably have no specific time pressure, so long as you don't panic.
As far as getting yourself out, you'd probably want to head downhill not up, and you may want to use the tree. If you're a snowboarder then you need to work out what to do about bindings. I have race bindings which have a quick release; heli guides used to use K2 Clickers with a rope on the release for the same reason.
If you're rescuing someone, I think it's dependent on the set up exactly. It's hard for the victim to self rescue, but usually easy for someone not in the hole. First you've got to notice that someone's not with you, and then work out where they are, and they may not be visible. That's standard stuff, although you need to know how to do it before it happens. Once you locate the victim, then it kind of depends what you find. Mostly when I've been involved you can just drag people out the sideways or down hill, maybe with the help of someone carefully jumping in there. I've never seen someone unconscious or otherwise obviously in need of extremely rapid action in a tree well, although obviously that will happen. I suppose in the worst case you would shovel, but I've never had to do that in 35 seasons of trees.
As far as people standing around ... I've been involved with climbing and caving rescues, and people do exactly that. I've walked into life threatening situations where the victim's mates have been praying to their gods or otherwise just hanging around. My approach is to firmly instruct people on useful things to do - they are extremely receptive, I have found.
Just to put this in perspective, it really isn't a big deal. If you ride for a week in trees people will fall over now and then, some of them in tree wells. 99% of the time they just get up and keep going. Occasionally a novice will get out of contact and you'll get worried as they could be in a well, but 99% of the time they just lost the track or something. It's fairly uncommon to have someone fall in who can't get out; I've never done it myself. It's much, much rarer still for people to die there - I think Wiegele has had one definite snow well suffocation fatality in 40 odd years of operation for example; they've lost more people from heart attacks.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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So I ski west cost N.America trees a lot so odds are worse for me I guess, but from first hand experience of being in 2 (and a half) tree wells, here's a few thoughts I've gathered.
It's all good saying don't turn above the tree, and yes that is good advice, but every tree well I ended up in wasn't a result of this.
1) one from dumb ass trip on a hidden tree top much further up the slope
2) one from jumping off a cliff into deep pow, then getting stuck embedded in the landing zone and deciding the best thing to do was roll away before someone landed on my head - unfortunately not enough attention paid to the direction of rolling!
3) half from avoiding ski buddy who was stopped just round the previous tree (half because actually this one was hanging off the side of the slope so I poked right through to the other side!  )
All of these I ended upside side down
It is not possible to get out hanging upside down - weedy abs power to weight ratio doesn't help here!
Rossi/look pivot bindings are hard to get off hanging upside down because powder baskets make getting the right angle on the heelpiece hard (even harder when you can't see them)
Though incidents 1 and 3 were kind of comedy like and I had buddies immediately around (who helped once they stopped laughing), incident 2 was not and the snow was so deep that even though they tried to get back up they could not (I didn't know at the time they had seen me). Having said that, despite thinking I might be stuck for a while, I wasn't overly worried about being stuck forever, or being buried
The hole under me in incident 2 was pretty big - so much so I was wondering if I was going to be having a bit of a chat with a bear I'd just woken up! 
Getting my skis off, squashing down the snow a bit, and kind of clinging to the tree and any bits of branches made getting out of incident 2 possible - it was pretty hard work.
Tree wells worry me more than avalanches, and my son gets lengthy lectures about them and the dangers before we ski in the trees. I have a bit more of a solution in mind to help with that...
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Mon 9-03-15 3:19; edited 1 time in total
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I worry about tree wells also. I live in Whitefish where the other gentleman lost a friend, and we had 2 fatalities last year fairly close together due to tree wells.
I do love skiing in the trees though and do ski with a partner... but sometimes we do lose each other making turns in opposite directions and then we shout out a lot til we know the other is okay. We never go far though.
I have had 2 incidences in them before. The first one was minor and I just nicked the edge of one and my left ski got buried while turning right, it caused my right ski to end up in a perfect straight line from the left and in a straddle split. It had been about 25 years since my body did that split... and it wasn't ready then to do it either! My ski buddy laughed his ass off at me, as I was grabbing the tree to try to lift myself up to relieve the leg pressure from being in the split. It took about 45 minutes to get out of that one and I quit after that run as my muscles were so stretched they were pretty unresponsive.
My 2nd time was last winter and I was having issues with the pair of boots I had on and super slow response times, and there was a branch across the area I was heading, so tried to change course quickly and it wasn't happening fast enough, made a sharp right and ta-da, there was a tree. I knew I was going in, but hugged that danmed tree and slid slowly down, but I was upright! It was about 5 feet deep and my daughter didn't see a thing! She waited about 30 feet below me in a panic. So it is easy to lose track of a ski buddy.
I wish there was an easy answer.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| philwig wrote: |
| ChrisWo wrote: |
...How common are tree wells, and are there specific conditions that they tend to form in (e.g. late season)?
...
What's the best rescue strategy? ... |
Personally I've never seen a tree well in Europe, although I didn't particularly go looking. |
Rare, but they do happen. I saw a guy get helicoptered to hopsital unconscious after spending 30 minutes in one at Nordkette a couple of seasons ago.
I didn't notice any in Japan, though it's probably possible.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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One thing to remember is that tree wells are just one part of Deep Snow Submersion, so while you may not get the classic Pine tree wells that you see in the North-West, the effect is still very real and can happen wherever deep uncompacted soft snow accumulates.
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@clarky999, are Austrian trees spaced more openly, than, say, French or Italian ones?
Also, (never having skied in Austria, correct me if I'm wrong) isn't more Austrian skiing below the tree line than FR/IT/CH?
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You know it makes sense.
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| under a new name wrote: |
@clarky999, are Austrian trees spaced more openly, than, say, French or Italian ones?
Also, (never having skied in Austria, correct me if I'm wrong) isn't more Austrian skiing below the tree line than FR/IT/CH? |
I haven't skied a huge amount of French or Italian trees so it's hard for me to say really. I don't think there's that much difference though. A friend from Salzburg tells me that the trees in his home resort over there (Werfenweng) are wider-spaced and more fun than Tirol.
More trees/more alpine again depends a lot on where you are. I'd suspect that a greater proportion of Austrian resorts have a greater proportion of below treeline skiing than FR/IT/CH, but there are also plenty of resorts here where the majority of the terrain is alpine, and I'm sure there are plenty of places in France/etc to find great trees.
I'd say your typical big Austrian resort has a similar ratio of tree:alpine terrain as the PdS (trees are similarly spaced too). I'd guess somewhere like Cham has way more alpine though? TBH it's probably one of those things where there's a greater variation within each country than between different countries.
I've only skied the PdS in France, Samnaun (and parts of PdS) in Switzerland and Sella Ronda, Santa Caterina and Passo Tonale in Italy though, so the above is largely guesswork!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Quite a few trees in BC are spaced by chain saw. If you get into something never ridden or prepared it can be very much experts only, they usually glade stuff out for people to ride.
"Tree line" [height] is the thing though - that's the big difference in the Rockies for example. So if you're in the right place you will be in the trees all the time.
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Poster: A snowHead
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In Europe, my experience has been that the tree spacing on the western side of the alps is tighter than the south and east. For example, tree skiing in France is pretty tight and tricky. In comparison I've found Italy much more spacious. Tree species seem different as well (I'm no botanist). Even at comparable altitudes.
As I remember the west slope of the Canadian Rockies (Revelstoke sort of area) was somewhere between say 3v/EK and Via Lattea (Soux D'Oulx/Sestrierre) - where the tree skiing was more friendly
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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and I know one who likes to take them in BIG ditches...........right back at ya Scarpa 
I have fallen down many tree wells, it is true.
They have all been very mini, but terrifying. In the pic of me above I actually skied over a rock that slid me into the tree well. What was even more scary was the amount of snow that fell on top of me from the tree.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Kooky, You got me lol. Just think, those wells probably had about 120 cm around them, imagine 4 metres of snow 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Scarpa, Any snow at the moment would be nice!!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Back country skiing in North America these are common in
a good snow year.
The treeline is a lot higher than Europe. Tree skiing is one
off the great joys of North Amrican POW.
Great care must be taken on your line..
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I think tree well deaths are not totally uncommon. A few in Whitefish every big snow year. A couple in big snow years in Whistler. Anyway they reportably cause more deaths than avalanches .
I would say your buddy is key; they have to be close enough to know that you have gone down and near enough to get back up to you under very very deep snow conditions. If they ski down for patrol, it will be too late.
They don't have to be able to rescue you, merely secure an airway; which I believe they do from the side.
Lots of stuff including videos on snow immersion suffocation.
Apparently people tend to die around the middle of the day, which is true for our friend. it was a very big snow day and apparently first thing you ski in between trees , but later it begins to get tracked and you push wider. I should also say , he was the best skier I have ever skied with, an ex-FIS racer and someone very familiar with Whitefish
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@gryphea, my condolences on the passing of your friend. I do like the point you make about pushing the track you ski wider later in the day to still be on fresh snow and a possible cause for deaths mid-day. As I think about it, I tend to either push wider, or try to go a different route to get the fresh stuff.
I know of the 2 deaths we had last winter, one of them was right under chair 7, and it boggles my mind that he wasn't seen falling into the well as it was fairly visible from the lift. Not as many people drop in where the other guy was off of Gray Wolf. It is a nice area but doesn't last long enough and if you don't have enough gumption near the bottom, and you usually don't because you are waiting for your friends, it means you have to traverse out. (I'm lazy and want a bigger reward for traversing!)
It is just scary because as a skier one minute you can be on top of the world, and the next minute fighting to stay alive. On those big powder days I can't imagine wanting to spend them on a groomed run!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@josiegroper,
Yup, our friend was right near the lift line, on one of the busier weekends of the year (family day weekend here).
My boss was there that weekend and said that there was so much snow it was unbelievable. Maybe that stopped visibility from the chair? who knows.
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@gryphea,
I tried going up that day, drove up and it was insanity near the bottom, no parking anywhere, I just turned around and drove home. Made it up the following day and there were ski patrol and family standing at the tree where it happened, and the tree had an orange ribbon on the branches. I would look up there every time I rode chair 7 for a while and wonder how something like that could have happened.
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