Following on from this thread http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=114437 ...
I'd be grateful for thoughts on whether, if you're going to buy a transceiver/shovel/probe and a bag to carry them in, you're better off just shelling out the cash for a full airbag kit.
I'm still relatively new to skiing (been for a couple of weeks a year for about three years - pretty comfortable all over the mountain on the piste, but of course plenty of room for improvement still) and by the end of last season was starting to get into some more "off-piste" (read "side-piste") skiing. Am very keen to keep working on this and increase my skills and the options I have as a result (I've done a fair bit of climbing and some mountaineering, so am working on longer term goal of improving my skiing sufficiently so I can do a lot more general alpine exploring, rather than being restricted to summer mountaineering and winters in resorts). This year I've got trips planned to Meribel and La Thuille. At least on the La Thuille trip, I'm planning to get a day or two with a guide/instructor to improve my off-piste skills.
So I suppose the question is whether there is a skill level at which an airbag kit is not really necessary yet but transceiver/shovel/probe is? Or is it just that if you need one you're always going to be better off having both, and it's just a question of cost? And as to cost, while I don't have cash to burn, I'm tending to think that if I was buried, then in the few minutes before I expired I doubt I'd be thinking that saving the cash was a good idea.
Anyway - any guidance appreciated (and any suggestions for where/how to improve the off-piste skills would be welcome too...)
thanks
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
A regular rucksack that can take a shovel and probe could be had for less than £50. An airbag is going to cost 10 times that on a good day.
At this stage, I'd say the money would be better spent on training than an airbag.
Henry's Avalanche Talk does some training in some resorts:
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
The shovel, pole and beacon are Must if you are going offpiste. You will use the shovel to do snowpack stability tests. Regular practice with beacon is required as well.
The avalanche backpack is not replacement for shovel, pole and the beacon. Usually they sold without these. The benefits of avalanche backpack is still arguable to me, since there are pros and cons. The number of lives saved claimed by marketing is questionable. But if it give you few chances more it's worth considering.
Its important to be confident in ski or the board. Falling over in wrong places may trigger the avalanche.
Get a book by Bruce Tremper. Staying alive in avalanche terrain. 10 quid from Amazon. Best read so far on the subject.
The benefits of avalanche backpack is still arguable to me, since there are pros and cons. The number of lives saved claimed by marketing is questionable. But if it give you few chances more it's worth considering.
Biggest reason for airbag not 'working' is failure to deploy by the wearer.
While the figures touted by some of the manufacturers are a little on the optimistic side, research (Haegeli et al, Official Journal of the European Resuscitation Council, June 05, 2014) has shown that using an airbag increased your chances of survival, should you get caught, by 11%
Similarly, research in other sports have shown that risk-compensation in general is far less prevalent than thought, so the idea that folk will take more risks because they are wearing an airbag isn't as strong an argument as many claim.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@JDF, As others have said. If going off piste then Transciever, shovel and probes are a must. For me, the ABS bag is a must as well. How much is your life worth.
It saved the life of a friend of mine. Could he have been dug out in time had he been sucked under and needed to be found then rescued. Not sure. Digging someone out is not easy. Practise with your gear all the time. When it is for real it is really scary. When training do it in all weather and put yourself under pressure. Then see how long it really takes to find and dig out someone.
In an earlier post someone put a link to a real deployment of an airbag. See if you can find it and take a look. After watching that I think you will want to buy one as well as the other gear. Maybe someone else knows what the link is to the video I am talking about.
Knowledge and education is of course highly important.
But if you have the money for an airbag, for sure get one! It's another thing that could help you, the more things the better!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
JDF wrote:
So I suppose the question is whether there is a skill level at which an airbag kit is not really necessary yet but transceiver/shovel/probe is? Or is it just that if you need one you're always going to be better off having both, and it's just a question of cost? And as to cost, while I don't have cash to burn, I'm tending to think that if I was buried, then in the few minutes before I expired I doubt I'd be thinking that saving the cash was a good idea.
Airbags are not a panacea. They're also well expensive, and spending that money elsewhere (on avalanche training courses, and competent guides) may well make you a safer skiier and less likely to get buried. Just a thought.
If you can afford em, great. Go for it.
I'd suggest an avalung as another possiblity that is substantially more affordable, though likely not as effective at keeping you alive.
After all it is free
After all it is free
If money is no barrier, and you are happy to carry the extra baggage on the aircraft, buy an airbag. My mate found his early model quite heavy and so often left it behind, but I am told they are lighter now.
Training, to help you avoid avalanche terrain, and recognise warning signs and potential terrain traps, is in my view more important, and should be the priority if money is tight. It should be done in any case regardless. You don't want to be the guy with all the gear and no idea.
Every year I see people skiing in areas would never consider going, mainly due to terrain trapa.
As stated above, shovel, probe and transceiver, are essentials (check the batteries daily and carry spares), plus good knowledge of how to search and dig for a victim. Ski with others who also know what they are doing. Some people do ski or tour alone because they like the solitude. Nothing wrong with that, but it has increased risk, and they tend to be very experienced, are conservative in route choice and know the risks and how to minimise them.
Six weeks is not a long to have been skiing, so be sure to keep working on your general skiing technique, and keep any off piste slopes to a gradient within your ability level. Falling lots on steeper off piste terrain will increase your risk of triggering avalanches.
Enjoy yourself.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You carry shovel and probe to dig your mates out.
You carry beacon and airbag to save your own ar$e.
Not sure there is any DIRECT evidence linking beacons and increased survival rates. As @feef, says there is some direct evidence linking airbags with modest increase in survival rates, so this is not a topic (beacons and airbags) one can talk about absolutes or irrefutable scientific evidence. Neither is there evidence that helmets save lives (apologies could not resist this hot potato)
If you have to use any of the above you have already fvcked up.
As @flicky, says 6 weeks is not a lot of skiing and money should be spent on technical training and avalanche awareness/avoidance; with your mountaineering experience you should already be ahead of the curve in this department.
Having said that if money is no object there is no reason why you should not get a bag.
ps I ski with a beacon,shovel, probe, airbag and a helmet
I think that there are more places hiring out airbags these days, if you can't afford to buy one hire one. Also to an extent it depends what you want to do and when you're going. If it's early season steep coulour's then yes wear one. If it's spring hut to hut it's more questionable I don't know anyone who wears one for this. The snow is generally a bit more stable by then, you don't tend to give it "banzi" with a big pack on miles from help and when you're weighing every crabiner to get the weight down 2.5kg for an airbag is a lot of weight.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Over 25 percent of avalanche victims in the U.S. die from trauma from hitting trees and rocks on the way down (about 6 percent of avalanche victims in Europe and as many as 50 percent in Canada).
from
Tremper, Bruce. Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
ed48 wrote:
Over 25 percent of avalanche victims in the U.S. die from trauma from hitting trees and rocks on the way down (about 6 percent of avalanche victims in Europe and as many as 50 percent in Canada).
from
Tremper, Bruce. Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain
the key phrase there is that it's in the US (and Canada as it happens) as the tree line is much higher, so there's more chance of hitting a tree. In Europe, where it's pretty sparse above about 2000m, more are killed from asphyxiation than trauma.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
2 feef
Good point, I wondering why its the difference between US and Europe. Thanks
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Thanks everyone - plenty of food for thought.
I'm certainly planning on getting all the training and guidance I can get - and have ordered a copy of the Tremper book this morning. I unfortunately only get a limited time to ski each season, so it's only little steps, but I am trying at the moment to at least get some increased knowledge/practice/tuition each season.
Although I certainly know I'm very much still a learner, I think I ski relatively ok for only having limited experience and I find I continue to improve every time I go. But I suppose this is where my concern comes from. I think its easy to get a bit of false confidence, thus making it more likely that I'll tag along with mates who are better skiers when they, say, shell out the cash for a morning with a guide off-piste. And of course I want to be able to tag along. It's pretty easy in that sort of situation, even assuming you've got (maybe just!) enough skill to tag along, to think "well I only go off-piste occasionally, so I'll go even though I don't have the proper safety kit". I'll definitely have transceiver/shovel/probe, but wasn't sure about the rest. Of course I'd rather not spend the cash, but I could come up with an extra £500 or so in order that I can be confident that I've taken all of the sensible precautions on the occasions that I do need it. Also if I'd be likely to spend that amount in a few seasons anyway when I "really" need it, then there seems little point in holding off.
Anyway - I'm going to do just that for now - hold off, see how the first trip goes this season and what I think I'll want to do on the second, and take it from there. Most likely I'll end up just cruising about on the piste and having long lunches...
cheers
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I started with just the basic kit but the airbag I bought about 3 years ago gives me a bit more chance if the worst does happen. I got hit by a small slide and had my hand on the handle ready to pull it before I had hit the deck. I held off though and stopped after 20 feet or so, it was a very localised slab just under a rock. But all the practice drills of suddenly reaching for the handle at random moments paid off.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
What Feef said.
Training
Core kit
Airbag
In that order until the money runs out. Don't cut corners. Take training before you need it. Sounds like now is the time
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I also found Wayne Watson's book, "Off Piste" a good resource
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
