 Poster: A snowHead
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| Why are you personalising this? |
Because you are wilfully ignoring the direct personal experience of the active BASI members who have contributed to this thread, both of whom pointed out that your conclusions from a couple of photos and an irrelevant bit of text (which I doubt many BASI members have even read) are just plain wrong. You are well know for your anti-helmet campaign on this forum, and this thread is yet another attempt to push your agenda despite real life experience not supporting your claim that BASI encourages the use of helmets.
The question is, are you big enough to accept that you are wrong on this point, or will you keep trundling down the same well worn path? If you aren't prepared to accept in good faith the comments of more experienced contributors perhaps there's just no point in contributing to your threads...?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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A familiar/infamiliar figure - a SCGB director no less - interprets this as an "Extraordinary Attack on BASI"
http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/membersonly/snowtalk/discussion.aspx/Skiing-And-Snowboarding-general?discussionID=14944#.VGMnw2fOoih
It's nothing of the sort, of course.
The Ski Club of Great Britain, which is actually his direct (sic) responsibility currently runs this guidance on helmets:
http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/infoandadvice/article.aspx?articleID=119#.VGMt4mfOoig
"More and more people are wearing helmets when skiing and boarding, and indeed the majority of Ski Club staff and Leaders choose to wear a helmet. However we still believe that it’s ultimately up to the individual to decide whether or not to don a helmet. We do however recommend that all children under 14 years of age wear a helmet when skiing or snowboarding. It is a legal requirement for children to wear a helmet in some resorts and countries, and in some cases it’s also compulsory for adults to wear a helmet in certain specified areas of the mountain such as advanced terrain parks."
So, again, a national skiers' organisation stresses that "more and more people are wearing helmets".
Once again, why report the trend if the aim is to be neutral? It seems that helmet promoters have run out of technical argument and epidemiology (there's been no downward curve in serious head injuries) ... so it's 'don't be unfashionable - wear a helmet'.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| So, again, a national skiers' organisation stresses that "more and more people are wearing helmets". |
Is the statement actually untrue? No? So is the actual problem here that they are making factual observational statements that you wish were untrue?
If the arguments against helmet use were cut and dried, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Instead, it is generally accepted that people are free to make their own choices about helmet use... and now you seem to be unhappy that they're making the "wrong" choice!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Serriadh wrote: |
| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| So, again, a national skiers' organisation stresses that "more and more people are wearing helmets". |
Is the statement actually untrue? |
Don't know. Apparently the accident involving Michael Schumacher last winter (he was wearing a helmet) caused a significant rise in UK helmet sales, through last winter.
[the accident occurred on 29 December 2013]
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
So, again, a national skiers' organisation stresses that "more and more people are wearing helmets".
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@Comedy Goldsmith, Does the truth offend you so much? Would you rather SKIUK or BASI lied to people, helmet use is rising, this is a stone cold fact, you seem to like facts unless they don't support your strange agenda's! Never once on an instructor training or assessment have I been told I must wear a helmet or instructed to use one, never once has a trainer brought it up, unless prompted by a question. Even then the general response is "whatever you are having yourself mate" I have actually run through old photos etc of training and assessment courses, and not a single trainer I have ever had on a course has worn a helmet!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Ah, and with the pending start of the snow season, it's time to roast this old chestnut over the forum fire AGAIN!
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So would it be better for a National sports training association to actively say 'it is better for people engaged in our sport to make their own decision as to whether they wear safety equipment' or to not comment at all?
No! it would be irresponsible of them to do either thing esp. with loads of people out there willing to sue the hide off anyone/organisation that fails to give adequate advice and warnings. We've all seen reports of companies taken to court for not printing on disposable coffee cups 'caution contents may be hot'. DG there is no need to chase this issue on the basis of your own personal feelings or to believe that this discussion is limited to skiing. It isn't, for example there are huge discussions in horse showing circles as to whether riders need to wear an approved safety helmet rather than a bowler hat without a harness when showing a horse. I think any responsible organisation is going to go down the apparent safety route (whether statistically correct or not) in terms of advice rather than leave themselves open to being sued. This is seen all across society. Another example is the medical profession which advises all sorts of things connected with the care of babies which 99.9 times out of 100 won't be necessary, yet if the advice is offered they can't be sued for not providing it if something goes wrong for some inexplicable reason.
Yes, yes, I know I shouldn't feed the troll. 
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| The question is, are you big enough to accept that you are wrong on this point, or will you keep trundling down the same well worn path? If you aren't prepared to accept in good faith the comments of more experienced contributors perhaps there's just no point in contributing to your threads...? |
Deafened by the silence. I guess the answers are no and no.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, you know me well enough to know that I respect your hard work and commitment to this sport and BASI.
I've simply pointed out the official BASI written guidance to candidate ski instructors on BASI courses. Therefore there's absolutely no reason to get personal about whether I've been on any of these recent courses - it's irrelevant.
I'm simply trying to engage you in what your Association has written and whether it's neutral - it clearly isn't!
You know BASI courses well enough to know that peer pressure and equipment trending etc. are very powerful forces ... even when they're not overtly expressed. I originally qualified in May 1975, when helmets were a complete unknown to anyone except downhill racers (and someone like Konrad Bartelski would have a direct recollection of helmet use at that time, so I'll ask him).
In 1975 the peer pressure - in fact it was official BASI policy - was that candidates couldn't use skis less than 190cm ... at a time when most skiers were switching to compact skis (maximum 190cm). 160cm to 180cm skis had essentially captured the market.
Ironic ... in light of this discussion ... or what?
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| rob@rar, you know me well enough to know that I respect your hard work and commitment to this sport and BASI. |
So why not accept in good faith what I and other BASI members have written? There is no pressure to wear a helmet when skiing with BASI, other than when on a race coach assessment when the usual protective equipment is required (shin guards, pole guards & helmet). Most Trainers don't wear a helmet, a small number do. Whenever the use of helmets comes up for discussion, which is rare, the answer is almost always personal choice. The only time that I've been on a course and the Trainer expressed a preference he was very firmly against helmet wearing (although he was a bit of an oddball character). The text you belatedly dug up on the BASI website is utterly irrelevant; I'd not even read that before you quoted it.
I don't want to get personal, I hope you know me well enough for that, but your ongoing refusal to acknowledge the comments from those who are more qualified to speak on this particular issue shows a lack of respect for your fellow forum users. I'd like to expect more from you, but you keep on proving me right 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rob@rar, it's not a question of me "not accepting" anything. I posted - opening post of this thread - a photo of BASI trainers (Interski demo team) on the Zermatt glacier.
6 out of 7 of those trainers are wearing helmets. As far as I know, they're skiing soft new snow, probably with a very low risk of falls or impact with solid obstacles.
If you can find a 2014 photo that shows what you're asserting ... "Most Trainers don't wear a helmet, a small number do" ... please go ahead.
But bear in mind that the photo referenced is the BASI demo team - the trainers at the very top of the tree. Isn't it reasonable evidence to cite?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Comedy Goldsmith, you just can't give it up can you? Oh well, you're clearly in one of those moods when you are stuck on transmit and your receive function is faulty.
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Rob, for heaven's sake, just cite BASI official photographic evidence.
Here's the BASI header photo for its official Facebook page.
Spot the naked head or woolly hat.
I assume these are BASI trainers - anyone good at rear-view identification?
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You know it makes sense.
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The Interski Demo Team and BASI trainers in general are quite different things. The Interskis demos involve high-performance skiing, in close proximity to each other and deliberately inter-weaving lines, with a pretty high chance of collision if you, or someone else, screws up. It does not surprise me that the guys doing that might be more likely to choose to wear a helmet. As already stated, at Hinterux last spring you would have had some difficulty finding a trainer with a helmet on.
The text you dragged up from the BASI site (I had previously read it) says, essentially, nothing at all. You could paraphrase it as "Some people wear helmets, some people don't. You can wear one for your course if you want, but you don't have to."
If I remember correctly, helmets are compulsary on the UKCP Coaching courses (which aren't, strictly speaking, BASI courses, although BASI certainly do run them). Can't speak for the skiers, but for the snowboarders, UKCP courses involve park jumps and boxes / rails. At UKCP level 2, you're doing rotations over reasonably-sized kickers. A helmet rule doesn't seem unreasonable. They are not compulsary on any other BASI course that I know of.
Many instructors that I know often choose to wear a helmet for their own riding, but not for teaching (or, if they're trainers, for running courses). A lot of instructors find that a helmet over the ears and a strap under the chin makes communication more difficult, hence not wearing one when teaching.
Ultimately, you're talking pish.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| stevomcd wrote: |
The text you dragged up from the BASI site (I had previously read it) says, essentially, nothing at all. You could paraphrase it as "Some people wear helmets, some people don't. You can wear one for your course if you want, but you don't have to." |
WTF?
That's not a paraphrasing - it's a parody!
This - once again - is the exact wording, which doesn't need fictionalising (which is actually what you've done) - it's only a couple of sentences ...
| Quote: |
8.Do I need a helmet for my course?
Helmets are being used increasingly by the skiing public and by instructors and other snowsport professionals. There is no obligation to wear a helmet on a BASI course although it is encouraged for those who wish to do so. |
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Poster: A snowHead
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Yes, that says "Wear a helmet if you want." What do you think it says?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It says "Helmets are being used increasingly by the skiing public and by instructors ... "
Yes, I keep going on about this ... and the very similar "More and more people are wearing helmets ..." from the SCGB ...
... because these two organisations - BASI, SCGB - continue to emphasise that helmet-wearing is a growing trend.
Here's a possibility for 2014-5: it may not be a growing trend. The copywriters may need to return to that copy.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| As far as I know... |
Which really isn't very far at all. You're just a keyboard warrior searching for photos that support your agenda, with no understanding or experience of modern day BASI. Plenty of people here who can share their experience, but you'll never learn because you never listen. You'll stick around linking non-stories and pushing your opinions until you get upset and flounce off. Then you'll be back a few months later and the whole crazy cycle starts again. And again. And again. Ad nauseum.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I really don't think it's something they care about. The copy was undoubtedly written in about 10 seconds by whoever put the FAQ together and I am pretty sure that it doesn't represent any kind of "policy". In fact, it's clear that it doesn't, given that it's clear that the decision is left to personal choice. It is fairly typical, tread-carefully, corporate nothingness. If it said "helmet use is common" instead of "helmets are being used increasingly" would that keep you happy? I see no practical difference between the two statements, but then I don't care about the non-issue as much as you seem to.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Comedy Goldsmith, When and where was the last time that you went skiing? I can't see how anyone who has skied for at least the 5 years (me!), and probably longer can have failed to notice the increasing trend of seeing helmets on the slopes. seen in the cable cars, sat on tables outside ski huts and restaurants. Perhaps you ski around with your eyes shut (which, of course, is as much your right as skiing with a woolly hat on), but I wouldn't recommend it. Maybe BASI should add - it is recommended that skiers operate with their eyes open too . You state:
| Quote: |
It says "Helmets are being used increasingly by the skiing public and by instructors ... "
Yes, I keep going on about this ... and the very similar "More and more people are wearing helmets ..." from the SCGB ...
... because these two organisations - BASI, SCGB - continue to emphasise that helmet-wearing is a growing trend.
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As though it is an inaccuracy. Take a look at my straw poll of photos taken this season
Plenty of helmets on those tables and on seats, under tables etc.
You state:
| Quote: |
Here's a possibility for 2014-5: it may not be a growing trend
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OK, well examine this statement in terms of what it says. You refer to a 'growing trend' well let's face it, if the majority of folks are now wearing helmets (which I now think is the case), then the trend will stop growing, because it has already reached a fixed point!!!
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 12-11-14 13:54; edited 1 time in total
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| stevomcd wrote: |
| If it said "helmet use is common" instead of "helmets are being used increasingly" would that keep you happy? |
No ... it just shouldn't say anything except "No. The option whether or not to wear a helmet is yours."
And as someone pointed out to me in a phone call this morning, what BASI should do is archive peer-reviewed scientific papers on head injuries, epidemiology and helmet design ... so that instructors can make well-informed personal decisions free of peer-pressure etc.
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[quote="dsoutar"]
| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
Move on, nothing to see hear except another very stale helmet debate |
Have we had a stale helmet debate? Personally I find Muc-Off citric scented cleaning foam is effective in removing stale odours.... 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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No, they should just continue to not care about the issue.
In the same way, many of my mountain biking clients ask if they should wear body armor. I personally don't think they should as I think it's an unnecessary encumbrance and it's likely to make them tired & sweaty and generally not enjoying their day. As I don't want to get sued, I actually say something like "Some people wear armor. As guides, we don't personally wear it. But if you're more comfortable wearing it, that's fine with us."
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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What I want is a detailed expose of BASI's evil agenda of bias against the avalanche cord.
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I'm absolutely not going there. Ten years of ridicule is enough.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Comedy Goldsmith, so the ridicule calendar got reset to zero when you started banging on about helmets? 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Comedy Goldsmith, so did you check out my first photo in particular as shown above? Just a shot of random strangers on the hill, but plenty of helmets in evidence to my reckoning.
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Poster: A snowHead
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QUICK DAVE! Write the following 'article' SKI.BLUB
"10 things BASI don't want YOU to know about colourful ribbons"
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Cacciatore wrote: |
| Oh great, now we can discuss these.....again.... |
I hear they cause people to ski more recklessly, because they worry less about losing equipment in deep snow.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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 @Serriadh.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Dear-oh-fecking-dear.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Cacciatore,
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@Serriadh, again, LOL
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Megamum, Sadly his head is to far up his own posterior to melt anything!
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FAQ
