 Poster: A snowHead
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My trusty old ford just isn't big enough anymore and it's getting on a bit so I'm considering replacing it. Only twice in the last 5 years of winter driving have I had problems getting through the snow. Once I struggled to get up a steep bank and another time the depth of snow on an uncleared road made me turn around. Both happened in the last season when my winter tyres had reached their max age (5yrs +) and were wearing thin. The exceptionally high snow fail in Austria last season also made driving conditions more challenging. I'm planning to stay away from rear wheel drive and super powered cars with front wheel drive (e.g.200 bhp+ only through the front wheels). It will have winter tyres, virtually everyone here in Austria has them on their cars in winter, (the locals view a car with summer tyres in the winter as an exception, driven by an exceptional idiot).
From the experience here, how much use are the following items when winter driving
1. 4 Wheel Drive v 2 wheel drive (any Particular system e.g. Subaru torsen v VW 4 motion)
2. ESP. Does this work well on the snow & Ice?
3. Diesel. Does the increased weight over the driven (front) wheels help? and/or is the heavy nose a problem in the snow? From experience the power delivery of a diesel in the corners is better than a petrol car and is less likely to spin. You can power smoothly through the corners without changing down or burning the clutch - anybody agree / disagree with this?
4. SUV's. Does the extra height really help? Has anyone got further in the snow in an SUV than the rest of the normal traffic? Is it worth the extra fuel usage along with braking distance and higher centre of gravity that can put them on their roofs? I think SUV's are only really useful for people who go offroad or have to travel on roads that are often not cleared.
5. Anything else to look for in a winter car?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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DB, http://www.mdocuk.co.uk/ You can get a low milage one in good nick for 9K Euro. Proper 4x4 but completely selectable from 2WD down to LR4WD with locked diffs. Very comfy, with room for 7 and the flea miner. LHD ones might be rare. I did want one, but they're too heavy to tow with most campers. and too small to live in on a normal basis.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Beyond tracked vehicles one of the best snow vehicles is the old 4WD Fiat Panda.
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Should of said that this is a second car that needs to be big enough to carry a mountain bike in one piece. Don't want to lose too much performance so am considering cars such as
1. Ford Focus Estate 2.0 TDi.
2. Audi A3 Sportback quattro 2.0 TDi.
3. Skoda Octavia Combi 2.0 FSI.
4. Nissan X-Trail 2.2. Diesel.
The focus fits my budget and handles better than the Audi. The Skoda is petrol. The X-Trail doesn't have the handling or performance of the other three.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Subaru Forester?
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DB, I drive a petrol X-Trail. Last week I exited a roundabout and I accelerated hard to get past a line of slow movers on a dual carriageway. Another x-trail closed in my mirror and then went past me like I was parked up after I pulled over. Not all are the same, blew my doors off, proper miffed I was  Take the test drive! Add to your list the Subaru Legacy.
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Subys are only petrol but their 4WD system is supposed to be the dog's dangles. The styling, petrol only option, service costs and quality of materials on the subys all score a negative with me.
snowbunny,
It was probably the X-Trail turbo Diesel that over-took you, the mid range overtaking power of the last turbo diesel I drove was great. The X-Trail TD is not slow it's just that the first three in the list have the same or more power yet less weight so are considerably faster.
It's a trade off but think I would use the more powerful overtaking ability, better handling and shorter braking distances of the cars more than I would use the increased clearance or 4WD abilty on the X-Trail.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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If your funds stretch, try Discovery 3. It has a special 'snow and ice' feature.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Subaru Legacy on snow tyres will get you just about anywhere that is a road. If you want a "car" then look no further.
The new ones have greatly improved mpg, servicing maybe a bit higher...but you'll make that back (and more) on the reliability, which is exceptional.
Get an automatic if you are worried about getting stuck...don't believe me? Ask an Icelandic motorist or anyone involved in serious off-road eventing.
If you want to be able to go really off road then get and off road specialist like a LanRover Defender.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Of your list I'd pick the X-Trail, though I have a Freelander and am very happy a lot of people have had problems with them, if the budget will stretch to a decent Discovery that would be my choice, the Defender is fantastic off road but i wouldn't want to have to drive long distances on road in one
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Has anyone here driven an SUV and needed the increased clearance & 4WD in snow?
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You know it makes sense.
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DB, Try a 2.5l petrol X trail. I never had any power problem's 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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this is a good snow vehicle....
Seriously, I'd go for a landrover disco or rangerover.
4x4 deff an advantage fuel not really in issue but diesel does have problems at very low temps.
skinny tyres are better for snow and ice.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| DB wrote: |
1. 4 Wheel Drive v 2 wheel drive (any Particular system e.g. Subaru torsen v VW 4 motion)
2. ESP. Does this work well on the snow & Ice?
3. Diesel. Does the increased weight over the driven (front) wheels help? and/or is the heavy nose a problem in the snow? From experience the power delivery of a diesel in the corners is better than a petrol car and is less likely to spin. You can power smoothly through the corners without changing down or burning the clutch - anybody agree / disagree with this?
4. SUV's. Does the extra height really help? Has anyone got further in the snow in an SUV than the rest of the normal traffic? Is it worth the extra fuel usage along with braking distance and higher centre of gravity that can put them on their roofs? I think SUV's are only really useful for people who go offroad or have to travel on roads that are often not cleared.
5. Anything else to look for in a winter car? |
1. I think the 4-motion is about the same as the Quattro, so no, the Subaru's no better or worse.
2. Not if you know how to drive on snow and ice already.
3. Our diesel is fine in snow and ice, I can't say I've thought it has a particular advantage though apart from being cheap to run. Power delivery is about the gear box and transmissions I'd have thought.
4. My experience is that SUV's are not as good as Quattros or Subarus by a huge, huge amount. They've bettr ground clearance which has some obvious advantages.
5. Obviously, space for your kit  Quattro estates, passat 4-motion estates, subarus estates etc. (The impreza won't fit skis in the back, the legacy will). I'd look at the volvo 4-wds as well.
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Masque, £6,500? I want one. Or one of these:
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DB.If you're in the mountains a lot get a 4x4 as you will have the advantage accessing off-road tracks for your bike.
I spent some time deciding which off roader would tick the most boxes and the Mitsubishi Pinin 5 door was the car I chose. Its light. agile, decent fuel consumption, very good in the snow with standard tyres and good carrying capacity. I found the mountain off-road tracks so enjoyable I bought a Wrangler Jeep as a second car and that really can go anywhere in any conditions.
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Subaru Forester - In Canadian ski towns it's the only non-truck/SUV that the locals drive.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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my take...
1. I think the 4-motion is about the same as the Quattro, so no, the Subaru's no better or worse.
Yep, though 4 motion is a haldex clutch based system (VW and some newer audis like the TT/S3 etc)which if i remember is not permanent 4wd whereas true quattro & i think a Subaru is a TORsen (Torque sensing permanent 4wd system) which throws grip forward or backwards to the wheel(s) with the most grip though in normal operation is split 50/50. A haldex system also used hydraulic fluid which is a service interval change every 20K miles...
2. Not if you know how to drive on snow and ice already.
n/c
3. Our diesel is fine in snow and ice, I can't say I've thought it has a particular advantage though apart from being cheap to run. Power delivery is about the gear box and transmissions I'd have thought.
Yeah and i guess about when and where peak torque are too, an engine with harsh boost delivery can mean lost grip as the power arrives really quickly and isnt that driveable. A heavy engine with the wrong tyres in snow will be 'driven' by gravity which can be un-nerving!!!!
4. My experience is that SUV's are not as good as Quattros or Subarus by a huge, huge amount. They've bettr ground clearance which has some obvious advantages.
i'd agree, we drove a lincoln navigator in the snow in canada and i longed for my Audi! depends on what appeals more i guess
5. Obviously, space for your kit Quattro estates, passat 4-motion estates, subarus estates etc. (The impreza won't fit skis in the back, the legacy will). I'd look at the volvo 4-wds as well.
Yeah and remember you could just sling a decent box on the roof-rails to give you a car based motorway cruiser with winter performance rather than having to consider an SUV.
Enjoy making the choice 
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| skinutter wrote: |
Yeah and remember you could just sling a decent box on the roof-rails to give you a car based motorway cruiser with winter performance rather than having to consider an SUV. |
Boxes are a pain for weekend skiers, they always rattle around, make washing the car awkward, in some cases restrict access and ruin your fuel economy.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I've had 2 Subura Legacy Outback's firstly bought to get home in the snow and since then never really had any serious snow in our area, so cant vouch for snow handling, yes they are a little costlier to run in terms of service and petrol, but they're a solid reliable car, my current one is the H6-3.0 and it can be seriously quick at times! The Outback is the slightly raised version. You easily fit a bike in the back but I must say it's a pain I'd rather put on the bike carrier, my dad had a Forrester recently and whilst maybe a little bit more practical than the Outback it wasn't as a comfortable drive and really didn't have that much more ground clearance than the Outback. Hope this helps.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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parlor, You can get the track converts for pretty much any hub configuration . . . but they COST! If you lived in the bumend of the backwoods they'd probably be a good investment. Bet you'd see a lot more of them if they were on the Range Rover options list . . . aren't tracked vehicles exempt from the congestion charge? 
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Anything with 7+ seats too. I want a Defender 110. 
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
aren't tracked vehicles exempt from the congestion charge?
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That Haglund looks even more interesting 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I don't go off-roading with the car (only the mountain bike) so an SUV seems like extra puchase cost, running costs and less speed / worse handling for little benefit to me. Only once in 18 winters (6 in Austrian, 12 up north in the UK) was clearence height a problem and even then the valley road had a high avalanche risk so turning round was the right decision.
Maybe 4WD would be a benefit but only twice have I been in a car needing snow chains and only once would 4WD of saved me from putting snow chains on. The extra purchase cost and petrol / servicing costs amount to 2000+ Euro, I'd of glady put 20 sets of snowchains on for that sort of money
Has anyone here ever needed the clearance of an SUV or 4WD capability in the snow?
A good front wheel drive car with high quality skinny winter tyres and space for the skis / mountain bike is going to get me where I want to go with what I want to take. Most of the Vehicles mentioned get rave reports but for a weekend warrior on his ski commute they seem to be over kill.
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Poster: A snowHead
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DB, the new Fiat punto 4x4 seems to be a really fun car, there's quite a few of the old 4x4 pandas around the village, seem to go on for ever. I'd second the Subaru option had 2 and they are superb motors, nothing like being 5 up with a roof box full of ski gear and flashing BMWs to move over at 140 mph, on an autbahn of course.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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DB, we run a VW Passat Tdi estate (diesel front wheel drive) and a Subaru Impreza wagon (petrol four wheel drive).
The Passat does 45 mpg and will cope with snow covered mountain roads so long as no one up ahead "bottles it" and stops on a steep incline or hairpin - whilst the front heavy fwd diesel will plod up anything, trying to start from a standstill up a steep incline will generate problems regarding grip/traction.
Its boot will easily accomodate a bike or skis. The security on these VW's is suspect (from personal experience).
The Subaru does 23mpg but provides an indescribable feeling of reassurance on greasy, salty or slippery surfaces whilst the diesel's front heavy front wheel drive makes it want to understeer straight off bends. In similar circumstances the Subaru finds grip and is very forgiving/reassuring to drive in slippery conditions. Being an Impreza wagon, a bike will fit in the back and it has roof rails so it will accomodate a roof box if neccessary.
I have been tempted to sell the Subaru several times but in the end it's enormous competence prevents me from doing so. After experiencing the Subaru's grip and roadholding everything else has seemed slightly less assured.
If forced to part with the Subaru, the Nissan Xtrail 2.2 dci would definitely feature on the shortlist of potential successors.
To answer one of your questions, clearance hasn't yet been an issue for us whilst tackling snowy roads.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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DB, you ask if anyone ever needed the extra clearance in a car and I would say yes. Living in the mountains I would'nt even think about not owning a 4x4 especially as live on a hill. Any car that has sporting pretentions (spoilers, skirts) is useless in winter. When I first moved here 3 years ago I owned a Mini and on many occasions I could'nt get out of the drive and when picking up relatives from the airport I had sleepless nights worrying about the weather conditions.
The only non 4x4 I would consider, and they are very popular here, is a Citreon Berlingo fitted with snow tyres. It would suit your needs well with great carrying space and excellant fuel economy from the diesel engines.
The ultimate is a Nissan Navaro or Mitsubishi L200 for carrying bikes, ski's, and luggage.
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i use a BMW 5 series touring with winter grips ,you would be surprised what a difference the winter grips make , the big avantage over large 4wds is braking the huge defender/rane rover etc are rubbish in icy conditions because of their weight.The best car i had in snow was a mini metro front whel drive witrh all the weight over the driving wheels in a car with no body weight.Here in strathspey the old fiat Panda 4wd where very popular for the same reason .Thin tyres with winter grips will get you most places
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I'm sure diesel isn't a problem. In winter, we buy 'winter diesel' - I think it has something added to raise the freezing point. I have a Range Rover Sport and it is just stunning off road and on snow/ice - re- all the recent bad weather in the SW. Discovery 3 is also incredible. You wouldn't believe where we've driven them! But, don't think we incredibly rich - we have the franchise here in Cornwall.
Freelander was launched many moons ago in Marbella, Spain. I remember that about 80 Freelanders were lined up along the beach. We had to drive them up a flight of steps to get to the road. It was like the Italian Job in reverse.
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winter grips are winter tyres slightly harder compound which are fantastic in snow and ice ,i have two sets of wheels the winter ones are a narrower profile hence the improved grip ,as was of the opion rear wheel drive was no no in snow hence my surprise over the last couple of winters with the beemer,also the torquey engine helps.I also have a customer who runs a bus company and a school taxi service in Dufftown Banffshire -the snowist town in the Uk and they use an old serria eatate ,the motto is get rid of the low profile wide tyres put on proper tyres and even rear drive cars will go most places in snow .Another very popular cheap car to run is the subaru justy 4wd.-ps i also have an old golf gti good ground clearence and reasonable in snow down point is too much power through front wheels
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DB
| Quote: |
| the bigger 4x4's are too heavy = braking problems esp. on icy roads while going downhill |
Yes, but you should never brake when driving downhill in snow and ice (or on wet grass). Always select a low gear and let the car drive itself down, using engine braking only, with no sudden movements of the wheel. This is where 4x4s come into their own, especially if they have low range gears.
Which brings me onto the main point - if you want 4x4, but not a Chelsea tractor, the Subarus have it. The non-turbo Impreza has a low range box (ie 10 forward gears in all). And it's a car, not a truck.
Skoda have just brought out an Octavia Estate with 4WD as well, which might be worth a look.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Which brings me onto the main point - if you want 4x4, but not a Chelsea tractor
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Buy a Jaguar X Type 4x4
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Stevo, At last, someone who understands how to drive an off roader...er off road. I have undertaken a number of off road/testing days, at Vauxhall, so understand, and have been taught the do's and don'ts.
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FAQ
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