 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Given the reactions of the IOC I don't think they will learn anything at all. They might learn if they were left standing with no choice at all, but I doubt they would look for the fault at their own doorstep.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Sochi, in terms of what it should be was rubbish, a big stinking rotting pink elephant. I will take a developed country with the balls to start arresting some of them before they even think there's anything wrong.
FIFA, as the article says, is worse and why the European Union has never tackled them, even if via UEFA, is beyond any reason other than complicity.
That said as far as the 2022 games are concerned I really hope that the national associations actually boycott either venue.
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| Quote: |
| Russia said it spent $51 billion hosting the 2014 Winter Olympics. |
And that excludes the money used to actually send the athletes.....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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What about a UK bid.
The majority of the events are either indoors or can be artificially created, we could sublet the skiing that Aviemore couldn't do to Chamonix which is largely UK owned anyway. I'm sure we are more than a match for the competition in the corruption game.
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Wow sounds like someone got out of bed on the wrong side (even if it is all true) 
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Sochi did a great job of hosting the olympics.
It was just the western media are anti-putin and wanted to score political points.
Spoke to a couple of athletes / coach who were out in Sochi.
They both said the facilities and organisation were fantastic.
"Western" nations don't have a guaranteed right to host events like the world cup / olympics <etc>.
Indeed if these events aren't taken to places like Russia, China or Brazil then are they really global ?
I agree that is sad that cost has become a become issue in hosting these events.
It is telling that the citizens of Albertville or Oslo dont want the cost of hosting a winter games.....
However : the fact that China and Kazakhstan are the only bidders for 2022 tells you something about the global economic shift that is happening right now ?
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| Quote: |
the fact that China and Kazakhstan are the only bidders for 2022 tells you something about the global economic shift that is happening right now ?
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or it suggests that the rest of the world have seen sense and are unwilling to pay stupidly inflated amounts of money to satisfy stupidly inflated egos
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No it just shows that the expense has got so big that only dictatorships are prepared to host the winter Olympics. Any democratic country isn't prepared to ignore its electorate, whereas Russia, China and Kazakhstan do not care how many people they irritate through the overspending, greed and corruption.
Sochi was a failure as an Olympics. All the media attention before hand concentrated on the corruption and Putin. This overshadowed the event and furthermore poisoned the ioc's image through association.
Furthermore, shortly after the games, Putin invaded and occupied one of its neighbours.
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| Quote: |
| Sochi was a failure as an Olympics. |
As a sporting event ?
The facilities were top notch and the Olympic games ran smoothly.
The Russians spent 4x more money on Sochi than the UK spent on the summer games.
Take politic metrics out of the equation when making your judgement - and Sochi was a clear success by every other metric.
If you make the mistake of mixing politics and sport then what nations are actually eligible to host the games ?
Does the UKs illegal war against Iraq mean we are also out of the running ?
What about the USA and Guantanamo bay......
Mixing sport with politics is a simplistic and lazy connection to make.
Its also against the basic olympic "sporting" ideals.
Why should premier global events, such as the Olympics or World Cup, be the sole preserve of western nations ?
Of course it is perhaps immoral that they now cost so much to run successfully.... And that indeed is another debate.
Questions should be asked of the IOC and FIFA.
However than doesn't mean the likes of China, Russia or Brazil shouldn't be allowed to host them.
Critics of Sochi look closer to home and ask what is the real lasting legacy of the London summer games ?
Was the summer Olympics a fantastic event for the nation that boosted moral and justified the cost ?
Or could the £10 billion have been better spent on schools / hospitals and helping the less privileged in society.
Not easy questions to answer or quantify.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Fri 3-10-14 22:02; edited 2 times in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Never mind the politics, $51 billion is an astonishing amount of money to spend on a pop-up sporting event.
The IOC do not want to use existing facilities, even though there are numerous places that can accommodate the Games. Instead, they make ever-more fantastic demands on potential hosts which both cost huge sums of money and leave no legacy (Sochi will revert to a wilderness within 5 years - see Greece for a similar example). What is more, the IOC has delusions of grandeur that have nothing to do with promoting sport or looking after the competitors. The Norwegians have taken huge offense at the demand that their King should make himself available for the IOC bigwigs and should foot the bill for hosting them all.
The IOC is beginning to resemble a Mafia racket - you want the Games, you pay our price. Most countries have called their bluff. The next step will be to see if they decline to participate as well.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Facilities in these events will always be top notch; they are not the key factor in whether a games are deemed a success. The Russians did spend 4x more money than the London Olympics and this is not a positive as a lot of the money disappeared due to rampant corruption. It taints the image of the IOC when host countries are internationally criticised. This is why they wanted Norway to host 2022; a country which is never going to invade one of their neighbours and is one of the least corrupt countries in the world.
If these events were just about the sport, no one would host them. They are forever linked with politics and it would be wrong to claim otherwise.
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^ Well : Norways deplorable record on whale hunting doesn't exactly stand up to international scrutiny.
For sure : they could have put on a great winter games.
However their government and people didn't want the expense of hosting what has snow-balled into a massive event.
Norway also hosted the winter games in Lillehammer as recently as 1994....
Perhaps the games have become too big and expensive to run.
However I dont agree they should *only* visit nations which have what we consider to be "western" values.
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You know it makes sense.
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It's not til 2022 though so that would be 28 years after Lillehammer.
I don't think many people have knowledge or interest about Norway's record on whale hunting; it's just not going to be something that would grab the public's attention compared to Russia's (and China's), human right's abuses and corruption.
It clearly wasn't just the expense that they didn't want but the terms and conditions that came with hosting these mega events.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Well the Torino Games in 2006 were the last to be held in the Alps - surely the biggest winter sport area in the world. It appears there will not be another one there until at least 2026, if not longer. Clearly someone is doing something wrong if Alpine countries are no longer interested in hosting the Winter Olympics, especially bearing in mind that a Alpine Olympics would be cheaper as a lot of the equipment is there already.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Sochi was a failure as an Olympics. |
As a sporting event ?
The facilities were top notch and the Olympic games ran smoothly. |
I disagree.
Because of the low altitude and the high temps (temps typical for the area and predicted), they were trucking snow in, OK they're not the first to do that but they didn't even have enough to look good for TV, resorting to white backing sheets all over the place because the snow wouldn't last long enough into the day.
Much more seriously though, many of the pistes were really not fit for purpose. The slalom courses were so slushy, some days the half pipe was scarily rutted...
The snow was so slow for one of the slope style events that rider after rider failed to comfortably reach the landing from the last, biggest jump, until eventually one was seriously injured and hospitalised. The winner of the event only managed to pull off a decent landing by going so close to the edge of the course they would normally have been considered irresponsible.
| Quote: |
The Russians spent 4x more money on Sochi than the UK spent on the summer games. |
You say that like it's a good thing 
The Winter Olympics is a far smaller event than the Summer one - London is one of the most expensive cities in the world.
The Sochi bill was a disgusting scandal.
| Quote: |
Take politic metrics out of the equation when making your judgement - and Sochi was a clear success by every other metric.
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As I say, I disagree.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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^ Uhhhhm : The snow was clearly much worse, and in shorter supply, for Vancouver 2010 than it was for Sochi 2014.
As a sporting event the Russians did a great job putting on an event that the world enjoyed watching.
Despite all the media negativity there was clearly plenty of snow at the end of the day.
Though no doubt people like admin wanted them to fail....
For sure you can question Putins politics, however that is another topic : mixing sport and politics is a dangerous game.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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As admin, says: the snow was predicted to be crap coz of the latitude (same as Nice) and low height (940m).
And it was crap.
But the decision of where these events go it clearly not decided on sensible sporting reasons.
Hence world cup on Qatar.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Though no doubt people like admin wanted them to fail....
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You have absolutely no basis for that comment.
I argued the point you were making and you insulted me personally - nice! You've done this before too.
Playing the man rather than the ball Haggis_Trap, suggests no faith in your own argument.
Please refer to the rules #7.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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^ the snow was arguably worse and in shorter supply at both Vancouver 2010 AND Torino 2006 ?
even Salt Lake City in 2002 the mens slalom was unseasonably warm and slushy (which famously allowed Alain Baxter to podium)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| admin wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Though no doubt people like admin wanted them to fail....
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You have absolutely no basis for that comment.
I argued the point you were making and you insulted me personally - nice! You've done this before too.
Playing the man rather than the ball Haggis_Trap, suggests no faith in your own argument.
Please refer to the rules #7. |
Well ban me for disagreeing....
I simply took issue with your clearly biased assessment of the Sochi games being a failure as a sporting event.
One thing is for sure : The western press before the game clearly wanted the Russians to fail and were keen to highlight flaws at any opportunity.
Incidentally I agree it is perhaps a shame the winter games perhaps wont be held in the European alps for a long period of time.
However they have never been held in the southern hemisphere at all.....
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Perhaps the games have become too big and expensive to run.
However I dont agree they should *only* visit nations which have what we consider to be "western" values. |
Indeed. Hatred, intolerance, waste and corruption are values that everyone can get behind!
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| One thing is for sure : The western press before the game clearly wanted the Russians to fail and were keen to highlight flaws at any opportunity. |
The western press say that of everyone though. They're all about negativity. There wasn't exactly unanimous approval for, say, the London Olympics, was there?
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| I simply took issue with your clearly biased assessment of the Sochi games being a failure as a sporting event. |
I do agree with you on this point, however. The games may have been wasteful and imperfect, but that by no means makes them a failure. I think there'd need to be a total absence of facilities, or teams simply upping and leaving in substantial numbers before it can be said to have actually failed.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| I simply took issue with your clearly biased assessment of the Sochi games being a failure as a sporting event. |
Oh dear...
I have never said that the "the Sochi games were a failure as a sporting event".
But if you find that point easier to argue, you go ahead and claim I made it
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51 billion dollars is 10% of the GDP of Norway. It's obvious that smaller countries can't spend that kind of money on a sporting event. Even a budget of 5 billon dollars (which is what the Norwegians were budgeting) is about 1000 dollars per person. As the politicians discovered, the citizens of the country would prefer to spend that money on something else. So we see the games being hosted in ridiculous places. 2018 in Korea will have the finish for the downhill at an altitude of 500m in a location much further south than Sochi.
For alpine skiing there is already a world cup and a world championships. Winning the overall world cup is more prestigious than winning an Olympic gold. If I was in charge of FIS I would just dump the winter Olympics.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| admin wrote: |
I have never said that the "the Sochi games were a failure as a sporting event".
But if you find that point easier to argue, you go ahead and claim I made it |
EH !???
Let me quote you...
| admin wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Sochi was a failure as an Olympics. |
As a sporting event ?
The facilities were top notch and the Olympic games ran smoothly. |
admin wrote : I disagree....
<etc> <etc>
... |
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Sat 4-10-14 16:40; edited 3 times in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Haggis_Trap, admin didn't write that, madlondoner did.
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Barring a terrorist attack, (which is very unlikely with the security at these events), or events being unable to take place, (also unlikely due to any expense spared), how would an event be deemed a failure if Sochi is regarded as a big success?
You can not disconnect the political element at these huge events. That is why an enormous overblown opening and closing ceremony is included in the olympics; so that countries can promote and project their country, values and beliefs. The events are most successful when the political element becomes incidental; where people remember the sport afterwards. Sydney 2000, Vancouver 2010 and London 2012 achieved this; the Beijing games wasn't far off. On the other hand you have the Sochi games which even so soon after the event are intrinsically linked with Putin's dictatorship, invasion and occupation of the Crimea and parts of Eastern Ukraine.
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You know it makes sense.
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^ The issues in Crimea can be directly linked back to Stalins large scale Russian ethnic relocation of the 1930s.
The population recently voted to become part of a Russia - apparently on a turn out of 83% (*assuming* the referendum result is to be believed...)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union
As for Ukraine : well that is a far more complicated issue.
In this case it seems that Russia are perhaps in the "wrong".
However are you really surprised that they raised an eye brow to Ukraine joining the EU or Nato ?
As ever there are 2 sides to every story and like Israel or Northern Ireland territorial disputes the answer is never clear cut.
Either way : all of this is clearly a political discussion.
It has nothing to do with sport - These events would have happened with out without the Sochi olympics.
Are western nations such as the USA / UK really in a position to say which nations are worthy of hosting sporting events ?
For right or wrong America has been involved in recent military action in Somalia, Panama, Iraq, Kuwait, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan... <etc>
Like Russia they have also supplied military hardware to dubious regimes.
Should politics be put to the side on the sports field ?
Particularly when the world comes to together for the large global events such as olympics or world cups.
The Olympic ideal would certainly suggest so ?
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Sat 4-10-14 20:57; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Isn't the argument here that Western countries can afford the price tag and therefore that drives decisions where Western nations would be best placed to host...?
Indeed it should be cheaper to host...
There should be less corruption wherever the corruption is (within country, within organising committee etc.)
IMO location should be important as much as we (as humans) seem to believe there are no barriers there are and we should learn to live with them / move with them. Will a country with no mountains try and host the Winter Olympics? Probably at some point... but they shouldn't do
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Poster: A snowHead
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I do think they should be given more to countries that have a winter Olympic heritage and in cities/resorts with winter sports heritage. Ok this would favour North America and the Alpine countries hosting the games, but these are the natural homes of the winter games. In the earlier versions of the Winter Olympics, they were hosted in small Alpine cities/towns such as Chamonix, Innsbruck, Cortina whereas nowadays they are in big cities where the expenses have spiralled and some of the charm lost.
Austria hasn't hosted the games since 1976 and by the earliest time when they could possibly host it in 2026, it will be a fifty year gap for alpine skiing's most successful country.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I think the Olympics are a victim of their own success and humans are easily spoilt. Nowadays all Olympic villages are purpose built brand new affairs, the number of competitors is huge and tv companies from so many countries all demand their own spaces. As madlondoner, says the times of charming alpine villages acting as hosts is long gone.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
^ Uhhhhm : The snow was clearly much worse, and in shorter supply, for Vancouver 2010 than it was for Sochi 2014.
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I don't really care where it is held but I do think they should hold it on some decent snow.
Vancouver snow was rubbish, but Whistler had too much - where they held the alpine events. It was the IOC that wanted Vancouver to hold various events nearer to the city presumably for ease of getting there. Hence using Grouse Mountain. It was always going to be a dodgy call for quality snow. They may have got lucky as they do ski there at that time of year but very back end of the season. They should have had all the snow based events up in Whistler.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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As I said at the time journalists and many others were desperate for Sochhi to be a disaster. It wasn't. As far as I am concerned, if Russia wants to spend 50bn on the Winter Olympics that's there concern. Why should we care? Also, there was widespread talk of a boycott because of some changes to the laws concerning gay 'propoganda'. Funnily enough I don't remember the same protests against the commonwealth games in India where homosexuality is illegal.
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As for Norway pulling out, the feeling here was that (after Sochi), the cost would be too crazy... I would have loved the games to be here, considering that Norway already has the full facilities in place, but Sochi pretty much ruined that idea for Oslo and its chances.
In fact, I'll go a step further and say that Sochi has pretty much destroyed the glamour of hosting a Winter Olympics for most countries. Flame away 
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On that theme ... and hopefully people will get over Sochi ... I couldn't resist starting a 'Sochi Unfinished Hotels' page on Facebook back in February. It links to what I think were the cream of photos and articles about the debacle ...
https://www.facebook.com/groups/SochiUnfinishedHotels/
... including [just scroll down the page] ... "THERE'S A FIRE HOSE IN MY BATHROOM!" ... "MECHANICAL DIGGER OUTSIDE THE PANORAMA HOTEL" ... "5-STAR CHERRY-PICKER AT THE GORKI GRAND" ... "A ROOM WITH A DOG" ... "SOCHI TOILETS UPDATE" ... "DOWNHILL CURTAIN RAIL BOOSTS OLYMPIC SPEEDS" ... "THERE'S A SCANDINAVIAN IN MY BEDROOM" etc. etc.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Don't forget that Norway wasn't the only democratic country to say no. Bids for Stockholm and Krakow were pulled earlier, and bids from Germany and Switzerland were never submitted because referendums showed that the people were against them.
So basically, Sochi was a failure because it resulted in an event that no country's citizens want to host anymore.
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FAQ
