 Poster: A snowHead
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Esprit sent me an another invoice for my holiday that I have booked, on that I noticed the landing time back on the Sunday was later than I booked (late enough that I wouldn't have booked it) it would be fine if it was getting back on the saturday or if it was Easter Sunday like last year but landing at 7:30pm to then get through passport control, get baggage get back to my parents to get our car and then drive the min of 2hr drive home and then have the girls at school the following morning, is really pushing it. I have contacted them to ask if there are any earlier times and have basically been told no and as it isn't a significant change (yes 2hrs later I guess isn't but it is for me).
Do I have any rights here?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
Do I have any rights here?
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What a pain. I've no idea of the legal position but I can entirely understand your reasoning and I would have thought you should be able to get all your money back, on the basis that the timing is no longer suitable for a holiday with young children.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I am seriously annoyed.
My only recourse is to cancel and forfeit my deposit, go somewhere else with Esprit but I asked about a couple of wha I thought were comparable options and they are coming back £400 (for a quad room vs the apartment room we ae getting) or £800. So suspect they are using the current brochure prices vs the early bird prices we booked against.
In my mind if the TO make a change that you aren't happy about you should have the right to cancel and get your deposit back.
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We booked earlybird with Inghams for the first time ever this year as it was xmas week and we wanted our pick of accommodation. Within three (maybe even two) weeks of booking we were advised that our return flight had also changed. Instead of a 10am pick up from the hotal it's now a 3am pick up.
I think they just show good appealing flight times that may never even have existed to make the holiday more alluring and hence more likely to attract early bookings.
It is very annoying. More so for yourselves if the return is too late to be of any use at all than for us that are just getting an early wake up. But annoying nonetheless.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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As I understand it, under the Package Travel Regulations*, if the holiday provider changes an essential term of the contract then you have the right to cancel the holiday and get your deposit back.
I would have thought that flight times would be an essential term, but you may have to argue the point with them.
Notify them immediately that you don't accept the change and that you want a full refund, and you should be OK (I'd think). Fingers crossed!
*PTR apply as long as it's a package holiday (ie Esprit are supplying the flight and the accomodation and you don't have a separate contract with the airline [we've been with Esprit loads of times in the past and I'm 99% sure it's a package])
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Hi Nicky,
By any chance is that you on Facebook that has joined in my complaint thread on the Esprit page? It sure looks like it by the name and complaint you are making.
Mike.
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Googling Package Travel Regs gives this, from Which?
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/package-travel-regulations
Changes to a booked holiday
Regulations 12 and 13 of the Package Travel Regulations are concerned with pre-departure cancellation or alteration by the organiser:
If there are alterations to your package holiday or to departure times or location, the travel organiser must notify the consumer as quickly as possible in order to enable him to take appropriate decisions and in particular to withdraw from the contract without penalty or to accept the alterations.
The customer is then required to respond to the notification of the alteration.
You then have the option of withdrawing from the contract without penalty or accept a variation.
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northernsoulboy, Most of the operators T&Cs have clauses to cover flight changes.
The problem that Nicky and I face is that a flight change now is a total pain in the ar*e. Families book early to get the best choice of accommodation in our preferred resort with flight times that we want. If the flights now offered were advertised at the time of booking we would not choose the holiday. Even if they offer a refund you are left in a position where all the other TO's have now sold the best flights. Its a lose-lose situation.
This is our third Esprit trip. My friends and I will have spent a combined amount of nearly £20K on this New Year trip alone. Add in previous holidays and its about £40K.
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northernsoulboy, That could be useful link for Nicky if she does want to cancel.
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| Mike-H wrote: |
northernsoulboy, Most of the operators T&Cs have clauses to cover flight changes.
The problem that Nicky and I face is that a flight change now is a total pain in the ar*e. Families book early to get the best choice of accommodation in our preferred resort with flight times that we want. If the flights now offered were advertised at the time of booking we would not choose the holiday. Even if they offer a refund you are left in a position where all the other TO's have now sold the best flights. Its a lose-lose situation.
This is our third Esprit trip. My friends and I will have spent a combined amount of nearly £20K on this New Year trip alone. Add in previous holidays and its about £40K. |
Mike-H, true, but T&Cs don't supersede the law of the land.
You can write whatever you like in a contract, and I can sign it, but if it turns out that the law says otherwise then the contract term is invalid and you can't enforce it.
I'm not saying that's the case in this instance, I haven't seen the contract, and I assume Esprit know what they're doing.*
But I'm also sure some operators work on the basis that most people will look at the small print, think 'Oh, I signed up for it, silly me' and take it no further.
If there is a case under the Regs mentioned above, it also allows for some compensation, so it may be that you could be due the additional dosh required for more expensive flights.
I should say, as many of my comments on s n o w h e a d s will show, I've always been a big fan of Esprit, they were absolutely outstanding when we first took our children skiing.
*It may well be, for instance, that the courts have decided that a flight time shift of two hours does not amount to a change of an essential term of the contract. I can't believe, on reflection, that it's not been litigated before, or that Esprit are that careless.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| dode wrote: |
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I think they just show good appealing flight times that may never even have existed to make the holiday more alluring and hence more likely to attract early bookings.. |
I have thought similar, except I wondered if changes are routinely made by some of the airlines to use cheaper slots at the airports. The last few times we've booked early and the flights have been moved to less convenient times, same happened with the recent EJ flight I booked well in advance.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I am currently of mixed opinion regarding Esprit. Trip 1 was great. Trip 2 the chalet cleanliness and food quality was disappointing but Esprit acknowledged this. We were assured this would not happen again. Trip 3 we booked in January and they have now moved the flight which is of great inconvenience. My main complaint with the flight move is that they have chartered a later flight. They are a family ski company but chartered an entire plane at a much later time which will inconvenience lots of families. There were many other holidays and flight options available in January which are now all booked. I am hoping that everything in resort is OK.
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Might (MIGHT) not be a problem of their making - even the schedules for scheduled airlines change as airport operators and charter airlines haggle and trade over slots into tightly packed airfields.
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You know it makes sense.
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| chocksaway wrote: |
| Might (MIGHT) not be a problem of their making - even the schedules for scheduled airlines change as airport operators and charter airlines haggle and trade over slots into tightly packed airfields. |
To be fair, assuming there's any legal redress for the OP, that's Esprit's problem, and they would need first to refund the OP and then sort out their own compo themselves with their airline/airport/whoever.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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NickyJ, Esprit initially messed us up in April (didn't run our chalet in St Anton) but eventually secured an alternative in Tignes for us which in the end proved a great success.
We had to escalate our complaint to the Reservations Manager - in the end we managed to rebook at early booking price levels and still benefitting from all usual discounts / incentives.
Have PMd you her email address.
Good luck.
Tony
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Mike-H wrote: |
Hi Nicky,
By any chance is that you on Facebook that has joined in my complaint thread on the Esprit page? It sure looks like it by the name and complaint you are making.
Mike. |
Hi Mike, yes that is me. Didnt realise it was you, sorry to have hijacked your post.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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No problem. I saw your FB comments today and wondered if it was Nicky from Snowheads which led me to login today.
Thanks for the PM. However, I already have the email address from my complaint at New Year. I know I cannot get them to change the flight times now but it is incredibly frustrating. As you will have read on my FB discussion I am quite confident we will miss some skiing on Monday as I wait with all the other poor sods in the ski shop and sort out the kids etc.
There were several options to choose from in January but now we have to just accept this.
Good luck with Esprit. Let us know how it goes on FB and here.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Mike-H, NickyJ, hi there thought I'd chip in as my daughter worked last season for Esprit in La Rosiere. I put your predicament to her and she said don't worry you will not miss any lesson time and will not be under pressure on Monday morning, Esprit and Ski total are the only operators that run Sunday to Sunday so all other guests will have already arrived and been sorted on Saturday or Sunday morning. She said they are super efficient at getting everyone kitted out and onto lessons in time, and even if anyone was running late, which there is always someone for whatever reason, they will wait. All the child are staff are on hand Monday morning, mini buses take you to the shop and slopes and that in her whole season no one ever complained , that she was aware of, that arriving late Sunday was an issue. I hope this helps allay any worries and if you have any other queries she is more than happy to help, I visited her in la Ros twice, and loved it 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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feefee, but unless I've misunderstood Nicky's problem is that she will get home too late to get her kids back into school on decent shape on the Monday morning. I would have thought the least Esprit should do is make a complete refund of all monies paid. This "early bird" booking is really a con, otherwise. A late arrival back, with two small children, could leave everyone feeling exhausted rather than refreshed by the holiday.
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pam w, yes I agree, but I was just trying to help with the late arrival in resort. Not sure if she's going to La Ros too?
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Yep I may or may not be going to St Anton. Although we are also getting out there later, my assumption is that Esprit will ensure that we get the kids sorted and into their lessons on time so less worried about that but aged with Mike that it would be MUCH better to get into resort earlier. Pam has the situation absolutely correct.
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Sorry I can't offer any help re the return, was just trying to help allay fears of missing ski school time and having nightmares on Monday morning from someone who spent a whole season with guests arriving late for all sorts of reasons. 
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The regulations are not very clear on this subject. Reg 12 says - Significant alterations to essential terms. What is significant to me may not be significant to someone else, or the tour operator.
IIRC Esprit do say flight times are not final until your receive your e-ticket.
I had a similar issue with Thomas Cook a few years ago. We had a holiday booked to Turkey. We specifically chose it due to the best of a very bad bunch of return flight times. We were due to get back in at around 22:00 but they then changed it to something like 02:00 the next day. Their T&Cs defined "significant" as a change over 12 hours. I disagreed and after a battle eventually sent them a "Notice before action" stating my indentation to argue my case in the Small Claims Court. They gave in at this point as I suspect they didn't want their definition tested. While SCC judgements are not precedent setting they can be persuasive for other cases.
If Esprit refuse a refund then you could try a claim - https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome - it is a very strightforward process.
I don't believe for one minute that Esprit deliberately misled on the times. Their supplier probably only gives an indication of times at the early stage and may only firm up on times 12 months out.
| Code: |
Significant alterations to essential terms
12. In every contract there are implied terms to the effect that—
(a)where the organiser is constrained before the departure to alter significantly an essential term of the contract, such as the price (so far as regulation 11 permits him to do so), he will notify the consumer as quickly as possible in order to enable him to take appropriate decisions and in particular to withdraw from the contract without penalty or to accept a rider to the contract specifying the alterations made and their impact on the price; and .
(b)the consumer will inform the organiser or the retailer of his decision as soon as possible. .
Withdrawal by consumer pursuant to regulation 12 and cancellation by organiser
13. (1) The terms set out in paragraphs (2) and (3) below are implied in every contract and apply where the consumer withdraws from the contract pursuant to the term in it implied by virtue of regulation 12(a), or where the organiser, for any reason other than the fault of the consumer, cancels the package before the agreed date of departure.
(2) The consumer is entitled—
(a)to take a substitute package of equivalent or superior quality if the other party to the contract is able to offer him such a substitute; or .
(b)to take a substitute package of lower quality if the other party to the contract is able to offer him one and to recover from the organiser the difference in price between the price of the package purchased and that of the substitute package; or .
(c)to have repaid to him as soon as possible all the monies paid by him under the contract. .
(3) The consumer is entitled, if appropriate, to be compensated by the organiser for non-performance of the contract except where—
(a)the package is cancelled because the number of persons who agree to take it is less than the minimum number required and the consumer is informed of the cancellation, in writing, within the period indicated in the description of the package; or .
(b)the package is cancelled by reason of unusual and unforeseeable circumstances beyond the control of the party by whom this exception is pleaded, the consequences of which could not have been avoided even if all due care had been exercised. .
(4) Overbooking shall not be regarded as a circumstance falling within the provisions of sub-paragraph (b) of paragraph (3) above.
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If you're not exhausted by a ski hol you're doing something wrong.
Re 2 hours doesn't feel that big a deal in scheme of things but get the point that it's different with small kids and accordingly for goodwill purposes I'd hope ES are willing to refund. From their perspective I wouldn't be falling over myself to get in argy bargey over equivalence. If it's a school hol week they'll ultimately resell at good margin to someone who isn't bothered by the later flight. Doubt it's deliberate either just like the other thread a consequence of an early booking model which can get derailed ny subsequent developments. Really your early booking discount with any TO comes at a price of risk of them being unable to deliver exactly what you want. They should obviously make this clearer upfront.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| northernsoulboy wrote: |
Googling Package Travel Regs gives this, from Which?
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/package-travel-regulations
Changes to a booked holiday
Regulations 12 and 13 of the Package Travel Regulations are concerned with pre-departure cancellation or alteration by the organiser:
If there are alterations to your package holiday or to departure times or location, the travel organiser must notify the consumer as quickly as possible in order to enable him to take appropriate decisions and in particular to withdraw from the contract without penalty or to accept the alterations.
The customer is then required to respond to the notification of the alteration.
You then have the option of withdrawing from the contract without penalty or accept a variation. |
Thanks very much for this.
They certainly failed to notify us as soon as possible, it is in fact a completely different flight as because we are the last week of the season they are doing something different.
We have been given some options but they all involve paying more money. They have also offered to hold our deposit against a future booking, which I know they did for another snowhead previously. The only issue is, if we take that we have now missed out on a lot of early bird booking discounts. I have found a sort of viable option of Mark Warner to Zell am See a week earlier which although gets back lateish on the Sunday being a week earlier it is still school hols. Though the responses to my other thread about Zell at that time of year doesn't make it a great option....
Thanks for all the advice.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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They seem to have done all they can. I know what I'd do. Can kids not sleep in car on way home? Can parents not drop car off for you or park it at a pub a very short cab ride away?
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Yep which was the original plan, but they aren't going to be settled in the car to sleep until at least 2hrs plus later than normal.
However yes, I think we are just going to lump it. Also learn that if something is borderline acceptable, next time, don't do it!!!! Find an option which we are very happy with, that way a few hour changes may make it border line but still acceptable, if that makes ANY sense what so ever?
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You know it makes sense.
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Parking at the airport would save you some time.
The kids will probably be so tired from the skiing that they will be able to snooze on the coach to the airport, on the plane and in the car.
It is just one day of being tired on Monday and you can get them into bed super early on Monday evening.
Or just let them have a lie in on Monday morning and take them in for the afternoon.
I know its a bit annoying having the flight time change but from the level of angst I though it had been a change to arrive at 1am or something!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| NickyJ wrote: |
Yep which was the original plan, but they aren't going to be settled in the car to sleep until at least 2hrs plus later than normal.
However yes, I think we are just going to lump it. Also learn that if something is borderline acceptable, next time, don't do it!!!! Find an option which we are very happy with, that way a few hour changes may make it border line but still acceptable, if that makes ANY sense what so ever? |
Sounds like a bit of a b*mmer. I know when my kids were younger, the thought of them not getting enough sleep filled me with dread, so you have my sympathies. (Although it will be the teachers bearing the brunt of it, so it's maybe not too bad...)
We got stuffed by Crystal in a similar fashion a couple of years ago. After we'd paid our final balance, the flight out changed from 8am to 6am, resulting in a grossly uncivilised start time instead of just an annoying one. The same happened this year (same airport, same flight, same initial time, same change after balance paid) though we were expecting it and had planned assuming it would happen.
If I was being cynical, I'd think Crystal did it deliberately to get a full plane from a regional airport based on a decent departure time. Esprit don't come over as being likely to engage in such sharp practices, but they might just be well trained to appear all warm and cuddly!
Enjoy the trip anyway!
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Poster: A snowHead
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feefee, Thanks for chipping in with your comment. It does offer some peace of mind hearing of your daughters experience. We stayed in La Ros last year. Liked the resort but our chalet host was not the best. I hope it was not your daughter 
I think the outcome of this is likely to be that Nicky and I will just have to accept things have changed and deal with the consequences. I know many will think our complaint is no big deal but travelling with young children can be testing. That is why I spend hours selecting hotels and suitable flights and pay a decent amount of money for the 'best options'. I even avoided Chambery due to its problems but they have now switched airport to Chambery as well as changing flight times.
Please Esprit, do not let us down. I have sang your praises to many people and hope to book several more ski trips with you while the kids are young. My fingers are crossed.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Mike-H wrote: |
| feefee, Thanks for chipping in with your comment. It does offer some peace of mind hearing of your daughters experience. We stayed in La Ros last year. Liked the resort but our chalet host was not the best. I hope it was not your . |
I hope not too, she was in the Chalet Oliver. I stayed twice and had a great holiday 
Also we have flown in and out of Chambery 3 times without any hitch, although I wouldn't like to be delayed for too long on a return journey as there is nothing at Chambery airport at all. Always chosen it over a 3 hour transfer from Geneva, and we've booked for Chambery again next year.
It's a shame Esprit have messed you around with flight times, mostly the reviews on Esprit are very good, the only time we booked an early deal was with Crystal who no longer had the chalet we had booked so we accepted the change into a more expensive Hotel, it was nice but a long way from the slopes/lifts which we hadn't planned, and was disappointing, but I suppose sometimes changes can't be avoided?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I hope I haven't got the wrong end of the stick here, and I'm definitely not being deliberately insensitive but don't you just need to chill out? You're still going on a fantastic holiday, your kids will be bloody knackered no matter what time you get back. Just relax, and enjoy it. Sorry, but I've said it now
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Timberwolf,
Agreed, but I wouldn't book a flight knowingly that would have the kids up too late (having made that mistake once already).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Timberwolf,
The main point of the thread was actually to try and find out my rights. I do still find it hard to believe that a TO can make changes without you having the right to say - "actually no that isn't acceptable to me personally, I would rather cancel and have my deposit back", the actual nature of the change is irrelevant to that issue and personal to each and every circumstance.
As it is we have decided to accept and learn from it - "anything borderline acceptable, don't go with!"
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NickyJ, The flight time change is a bit of a nightmare, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be regarded as significant enough to void the contract or entitle you to compensation. Chambery should be fine. I've flown out of there on many occasions with no problem at all. A two hour delay from any airport is pretty unremarkable, even if it's not much fun. If I were you, I'd take a deep breath and relax about it. As someone said, get meet and greet parking at the airport for about £60 and just go straight home. You should have the children tucked up in bed by about 10.15 and they may even sleep in the car.
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foxtrotzulu, based on the landing time - I can't see us being back home before midnight.
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NickyJ, easy just pull a sicky Monday morning to the school 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| feefee wrote: |
| NickyJ, easy just pull a sicky Monday morning to the school |
Tempting!
I am hoping that they put an inset day on that day, but they aren't normally that helpful (and given that my girls are in difference schools, one will be infants one is juniors) odds aren't in my favour there.
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NickyJ, if you feel it's too late when you get home, just ring the schools and say you are just back from the holiday and the children are unwell! Day off to recover, job done
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FAQ
I would write to Esprit and remind them of all the times you've recommended them on Snowheads 