 Poster: A snowHead
|
A friend of mine got busted for using someone else's lift pass. He was visiting a friend whose wife had to return home a day early. The friend said "why don't you stay and ski with me tomorrow and use the last day on the wife's 4 day pass, they didn't take a photo". He had winter gear with him so just a case of hiring skis.
First turnstyle at Courch 1850 and the lifty says "oi you, come here" they showed him a photo of his friend's wife and said "you are not Jane Smith are you?". He was then asked to come to the lift pass office (the alternative was they called the police) where he was fined 2 days lift pass and banned from the Three Valleys for the rest of the season. He could have been fined 5 x the daily lift pass rate and the original pass confiscated. They told him the photo came from Vail where the wife had skied last year - I seem to recall some kind of "super mega liftpass" involving Courchevel and US resorts, is this why the information is shared?
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 7-05-14 10:30; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
wow thats harsh !
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Blimey (on both counts). I haven't heard that re Courchevel and the US - why would they do it? Only a handful of Russian oligarchs and celebs would ever use both in a season often enough for it to be worth the software (I'd have thought).
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
northernsoulboy, but it wasn't in the same season - the friend had skied in the US the year before.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
davidof, agreed that is harsh.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
I wonder what the contract said regarding the photo and use that might be made of it when the original picture was taken. I guess it would needed to have been covered in the 'small print' (who reads the 'small print'?  )'. It does seem particularly harsh, a bit like the argument that says well if a car parking space has been paid up four 8 hours, i.e. hired for that duration, does it matter which car uses it?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Of course moving data into and out of Europe is covered by data protection acts too.
It makes me think that lift companies must keep a lot of stuff on record - the compagnie des alpes, for example, must have a huge database.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
If your friends were so minded, I think they could make some trouble for Courchevel under the guise of the Data Protection Directive
edit: beat me to it
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| northernsoulboy wrote: |
| Blimey (on both counts). I haven't heard that re Courchevel and the US - why would they do it? Only a handful of Russian oligarchs and celebs would ever use both in a season often enough for it to be worth the software (I'd have thought). |
Mrs Ansta1 and I have been to Vail and Courchevel in the same season, but that was before the link up in terms of lift passes, it's almost certainly a relatively small amount of data to share and integrate between the respective lift companies, when you look at those who would qualify for a free ski at the other resorts and I suspect what actually happens is that when you buy a qualifying pass at one resort the system would probably 'purchase' the extra resorts pass automatically, however that is just a guess on my part.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
The question is did Vail have the legal right to send the photo to another resort in another country and also does that other resort have a right to retain the photo even after the season ends ? And/or does Vail have the right to retain the photo for the next season or god knows how many years.
Fact is that it is not as if two people are trying to use the same pass at the same time ( def not on and fines should be imposed ) I see no issue using a pass that the original purchaser can not use but would accept that it can only be given not sold on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
speed098, our photos have been stored by Les Gets/Morzine for years - I've been happy to let them use one from 7 years ago but there will come a point where I don't match the pic 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
My daughter still had a photo of her when she was 9 years old being re-used year after year in Verbier...even in her first season as a ski instructor.
It had become something of a standing joke with the girl in the ticket office.
New photo this season though...rather end of an era
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| Quote: |
I see no issue using a pass that the original purchaser can not use but would accept that it can only be given not sold on.
|
On the other hand given that link that Frosty the Snowman, posted, I can perhaps see that there could be a good black market in posting passes back and forwards to use up the 5 free days in each resort if they don't have photos on them, but that still doesn't explain why the photo ID was applied to a completely different pass type, in a different year, in this instance. As I aluded to in my first comment above and as others have picked up on, surely Data Protection comes into play here?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
How did they know that this 4 day pass was her?
You do not provide name while booking short lift passes, do you?
Unless it was paid by the same c/card but anyway this sound odd.
It could be different if they take some sort of cctv photo on the first lift you use and store it with the ski pass number.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| davidof wrote: |
| and banned from the Three Valleys for the rest of the season. |
Again, can you not buy lift pass without providing ID?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
I think the point is the pass was purchased by one person who used it (it doesn't matter whether the name was on it or not, and yes, in some resorts, I've been asked to provide names when buying a number of passes), and then it was used by another person. I suspect the contract is with the person, to provide use of the lifts to that person, and isn't it true to say that most contracts make it clear that passes are not transferable? The difference is, now they have the technology to enforce that clause.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Tom W, in, for example, Monterosa, if you take their insurance you provide name and basic address. In fact, I think we gave our names last time, without insurance, possibly to cover lost passes or something. Wasn't paying huge attention.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
northernsoulboy, I am not a Russian oligarch or celeb but normally ski both in the US and the 3V. I like the snow quality in Colorado. The 3Vs were my buddy's favorite area I have now convinced him that the Dolomites offers a better experience than the 3Vs. But now you get 5 days in the 3V on the Epic season pass that was an own goal & I am more inclined to ski both sides of the pond.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
FWIW I've bought week long passes in VT and not been asked for ID. I can see them being able to spot an adult on one of my kids pass, but AFAIK I could give my pass to any other adult and they would be none the wiser. After all how does admin cope when he buys 100+ passes for bashes and hands them out? I find it hard to believe that each of those is logged to a user (though I don't know for certain).
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
It's still stealing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I can't see they could link the pass to a Jane Smith that skied at Vail unless some information was divulged like an e-mail or an image taken on purchase of the new pass. It may be assumed that Jane Smith is female, so your friend should have cross-dressed and made-up 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Megamum,
"as I heard they do sometimes - they take cctv photo of you on your first lift and store it to compare. Disadvantage might be poor quality photo of someone in goggles and helmet..."
- so later during the week every time you scan your ski pass they might a photo of you flashing on the screen in the lift cabin from the first use. But that is not very accurate, jacket, goggles, helmet etc.......... easy to spot if you are man, woman or kid - but not any more.
So if you are alone on some odd lift they might actually spot it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Filthyphil30k wrote: |
| It's still stealing. |
How so? It is against the terms and conditions of the use of the ski pass, but I do not see that anyone has 'stolen' anything at all from the lift company.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
More fraud than stealing surely?
Clearly he had no right to ride the lifts on that pass and was "passing himself off" as someone else. I'm sure he knew he was being naughty. I wonder though what the police would have done - I mean I suspect it would be a civil matter but I don't know.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
jedster, but was he passing himself off as someone else? Surely he was just riding out the last day on a 4 day pass that had been purchased for someone to ski on the mountain that day - if the other person had been there they would have used it, so why not let someone else do so? They weren't trying to defraud the resort out of an extra bum on a lift seat - they were only taking a seat that would have been filled had someone not gone home - personally I think that's a valid thing to do, unless of course they have un/knowingly signed something in the purchase that says lift pass not transferrable.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Megamum wrote: |
| FWIW I've bought week long passes in VT and not been asked for ID. I can see them being able to spot an adult on one of my kids pass, but AFAIK I could give my pass to any other adult and they would be none the wiser. After all how does admin cope when he buys 100+ passes for bashes and hands them out? I find it hard to believe that each of those is logged to a user (though I don't know for certain). |
We had 4 passes at VT, two were 6 day and two were 13 days ones left over from the bash the previous week, mine was originally used by Schneeflocke although to be honest, we all just put one pass in our pocket, so we could have been using any of them. Also, son no 2 dropped his pass in the Forkin' Knife and only discovered after leaving that he had lost it. It was found by another sH and took back to the ski testing station opposite Oxalys. He used admin's pass to catch the Cairn bubble back up to retrieve it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| Quote: |
Also, son no 2 dropped his pass in the Forkin' Knife and only discovered after leaving that he had lost it.
|
Was it with his passport?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Some modern (Skidata) lift turn styles do have a built-in camera which takes a photo the first time the lift pass is used. That is so here in Fieberbrunn, for example. The wonders of modern science! Whether that system was used in this case I cannot say.
That you can't share lift tickets may seem hard but that's the rules (and most people know them, I assume).
P.S. That 'the rules' comes out as a link has nothing to do with me but is some quirk of this bulletin board - another marvel of modern science 
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Wed 7-05-14 14:17; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
Hells Bells, and I can't see anything wrong with any of that. Esp. borrowing another pass to get something sorted out if you have lost your own. Providing two people aren't trying to ride at the same time on one pass (i.e. handing it back over barrier for a second run through - which the timer prevents anyway) I can't see the problem.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Frosty the Snowman, different son.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Megamum wrote: |
| Hells Bells, and I can't see anything wrong with any of that. Esp. borrowing another pass to get something sorted out if you have lost your own. Providing two people aren't trying to ride at the same time on one pass (i.e. handing it back over barrier for a second run through - which the timer prevents anyway) I can't see the problem. |
Whether or not you see it as a problem or not is irrelevant. It's part of the contract that you've entered into with the lift company that the lift pass is non-transferable. You're in breach of contract at least, and potentially committing fraud.
I've downloaded music and films which I can't get in the UK via legitimate means. It's still an illegal download and one's 'opinion' on the subject doesn't come into it.
You could equally argue that not paying for a parking ticket in an empty car park isn't doing anything wrong as it's not depriving the car park operator of revenue. It's not like you're preventing a paying customer from parking.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
When I go on holiday, the hotel reps hand out the passes, so how could they know whose was whose? I suppose the likelihood of anyone else using them is a lot lower.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
[quote="speed098"]The question is did Vail have the legal right to send the photo to another resort in another country and also does that other resort have a right to retain the photo even after the season ends ?[/quote]
No the question is, what's the big deal. It's clear, and it's written in every single terms and conditions, that (huge majority of) lift passes are not transferable. So instead of bugging if Vail has legal right to keep photo, rather bug with playing it fair and by rules.
Besides, I doubt they got photos from Vail as most lift entries have cameras and once you get on lift for first time with ticket, they get photo (unless it's season ticket with photo, where they already have photo in system), and every next time, that photo and current photo taken on gate blinks on lifties screen.
So instead of searching for some legal stuff about them being allowed to hold photos, rather play by the rule and do what you agreed to do when you bought ticket. It really is as simple as that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
It would strike me as fairer for resorts to offer refunds on unused tickets, then people might be less inclined to feel that it is their right to use up spare time on tickets which have unexpectedly been left vacant. How many resorts offer refunds?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I am with feef. Like lots of other rules, laws or contractual terms and conditions you have signed up to them and if you choose to abuse, flout or ignore them then you are contractually and possibly legally if not morally in the wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
So I think we all know (now anyway, if not some of you before reading this) that a multi day pass is not transferable. Some of you will argue that it should be, many of us will have done it. I'm not bothered about entering the debate on the rights and wrongs of handing over passes (or car park tickets come to that).
What I don't understand, and the question I don't see answered above is:
The USA stores a picture when it issues the discounted or longer duration ticket, and it stores it under the name 'Jane Smith'. The lady buys a shorter duration multi day ticket in Europe the next season, how does the US photo become linked (given that she needn't supply a name to buy the shorter duration multi day, and even if she did there can be no certainty that it is the same 'Jane Smith')?
Could it have anything to do with the websites that now store your data to make purchasing passes easier, or those where you create a profile and link your passes to it in order to view uplift stats and video footage of gate or speed runs?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Quote: |
It would strike me as fairer for resorts to offer refunds on unused tickets
|
I think they do.
And quite clearly the original purchaser had her name on the pass - so it was issued to a named individual. It's straightforwardly against the T & C, as is giving your partly used 2 hour parking ticket to someone who has just arrived. Them's the rules.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Got to say it sounds a bit rule 5 to me. As pam w, says, them's the rules
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
