 Poster: A snowHead
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| speed098 wrote: |
| pam w wrote: |
speed098, I'd like to be a listening marmotte on the day you decide to try out your theory on a French or Austrian lift pass inspector. 
Megamum, here you go http://www.s3v.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/CGVU-GB.pdf
very easy to find in my view - and if you google "ski pass non transferable" you get pages of similar stuff from resorts all over the shop. In English. |
Facts re law and corporate law are not theory they are fact just google these and see but sorry if you do not see how company's try to do this stuff even after high publicity cases such as PPI then I don't know what to say to you. I am happy to challenge any company who's T&C are unfair and equally happy to apologise to an individual or company if I do something wrong. It is a shame too many company's do not do the same.
All links re the resorts own website for lift passes are irrelevant if you buy via a tour operator as a package and also links should be very clear and easy to find.
It is not hard to put say a capitol "T" or "NT" next to each and every pass option and clearly state that "T" means Transferable and "NT" means non transferable or colour code them. Would love to see the IT tech for the lift company explain in court why this is impossible to do.
Many keep saying how it is our responsibility to look for to find to ask re T&C but the company are equally if not more so responsible for making it clear and the T&C easy to find and understand. Even then if a court decide they are unfair the T&C are not enforceable.
Please read my previous post re email and crediting and ask is this not a much better option that can actually make people come back potentially year after year. |
Surely the easier option is to sell passes for a set number of days that do not need to be used consecutively
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
"Thankyou for choosing to visit XXXXXX we hope you really enjoyed your time and would love to welcome you back. We note that one pass was only used for 6 days and we have kept your details on our system and if you book to visit us again within the next 2-3 seasons we would love to credit these days to a liftpass purchase by either of you.
We have included a survey link with this email and if you can find the time to complete this and help us ensure we always provide the best service if one of you only buys a 6 day pass we would not charge the nominal admin fee for producing the pass, ( this would not be charged if extra days are purchased on the pass )".
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pam w is right that it is unnecessary for companies to do this.
speed098, is right that it is still a great marketing ploy for companies (necessary or not) as a resort you may give an unnecessary rebate to someone already intending to visit you again, more likely you will sway a number to re-visit who would have gone elsewhere otherwise.
speed098, leave the law and join marketing, forthwith.
edited once to remove the phrase 'because we have too many lawyers in the UK already' as it seemed rude.***
***please note this may be a lie (not that we have too many lawyers, but that I removed it).
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Thu 8-05-14 15:04; edited 2 times in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Most of the USA resorts have been doing that for years ski 6 in 10 etc etc. The 3v's have an option to pay as you go (but they do charge a little extra for it) it's the Liberte pass, You get the pass and it charges your bank account each day you use it, so you only actually pay for what you use even if they do throw in a few freebie days.
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Yes, but would anyone google 'ski pass non-transferable' if we weren't all sitting here discussing it. I also think it should be easily findable on www.valthorens.com I wouldn't necessarily look at S3v.com if I was staying in VT. Even that link is buried well deep. Say I visited www.S3v.com top level page I wager it's not easy to find the TC's - it's not intuitive from any of the link on the landing page IMO. I think they don't expect anyone to want to check. In actual fact your link appears to date from 2011, perhaps that's why it can't easily be found directly from the top level site today?.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Megamum, which is what I meant to say with the Morris Minors.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Megamum, the link is the bottom of the VT site, it called 'general sales conditions' whilst it isn't in Comic Sans at 50pt font, it's 2 clicks from the VT home page, 1 click from the VT pass sales page and is as far as I am concerned pretty obvious.
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and as buy way of a quick web review of some of the places I've been recently...
Tignes - conditions of sale 2 clicks from home page 1 from pass info page, easy to find
Val Gardena - 1 click from home page and clearly states non-transferable on the ski pass page
Zell Am See - 2 clicks from ski home page
Obergurgl - They've switched to their summer site and I couldn't access the ski pass info.
Now admittedly I know what to look for so that does make it easier, but on the basis of the above examples I'd hardly say the t's and c's (whether fair or enforceable is another question) are buried.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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My Davos pass from 1991was a 6 day in 10 as I wanted to ski other areas but if I had not used those 6 days nothing in lift pass office said anything about refunds or part off.
midgetbiker,
Nah don't think I will bother with marketing they don't seem to like common sense too much either ideal job would be retired multi millionaire at 20 but that opportunity is well past 
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| Quote: |
Say I visited www.S3v.com top level page I wager it's not easy to find the TC's - it's not intuitive from any of the link on the landing page IMO
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 It's a link on the bottom of that page - "conditions of sale". Standard kind of web page layout.....
Sorry, if I were looking at this pleading in defence of someone who claimed they had no idea they couldn't give their lift pass to somebody else to use...... I'd be unimpressed.
And for those who aren't good at navigating websites I'll bet they're up near the lift pass office.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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speed098, I'm not disagreeing with the general point that the lift companies could provide a more consumer friendly pricing model but as with
Holiday prices in school holiday times
why should they bother when we all (well most of us) continue to buy them as they are currently sold.
also getting back to the motoring theme
Bugatti can sell you a car with 1200bhp, i'd bet they wont give you a refund if you only pootle to the shops and use 60bhp every day... (just being a little bit jokey of course but as this is 1 post short of 3000 posts for me I need to write something).... 3k next time around. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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ansta1,
Some may be easy to find some may not, to be honest doing a lot of other stuff at moment and enough to keep up with this don't think I will get many brownie points for spending even more time doing this stuff maybe later tonight I can look at resort lift pass sites, but thanks for looking them resorts up 
It still leaves the issue of buying as part of a package holiday from a tour operator or even someone else buying for you as you are part of a group.
pam w,
It may be unnecessary for company's to offer credit for returning visitors but that does not mean they can not do it and surely doing so would gain more support for them if they want to make some or all passes non transferable . Also give's them a valid argument that T&C are fair as they have this option that is even emailed to the visitor after their holiday as well as being in the T&C.
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| ansta1 wrote: |
and as buy way of a quick web review of some of the places I've been recently...
Obergurgl - They've switched to their summer site and I couldn't access the ski pass info.
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In Obergurgl a few weeks ago a friend mistakenly bought a three day pass when a two day was all that was required. When a one day refund was queried at the ticket office we were told that this isn't possible and we should attempt to sell the one day remaining on the pass.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Thu 8-05-14 19:53; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Obviously this is useless to argue about. Some of you will find every possible way why you should be allowed to do it. Well you are not. Feel free to stay at home and don't ski or risk getting caught as OP's friend was. Or what the hell, go to court and sue the hell out of them, so they will see not putting big enough signs for you to read it. It's up to you, just don't cry here after this how unfair this world is.
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Poster: A snowHead
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jogi, I think if you read through the 5pages only speed098 is saying that the T&C's are unfair (or at least unenforceable), everyone else is either firmly in your camp, or merely saying that it should be more obvious that you are not allowed to transfer.
I believe even pamw said that if a pass didn't have a name on it (as in Chx or Paradski for example) then it was not unreasonable to assume it could be transferred.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| jogi wrote: |
| Obviously this is useless to argue about. Some of you will find every possible way why you should be allowed to do it. Well you are not. Feel free to stay at home and don't ski or risk getting caught as OP's friend was. Or what the hell, go to court and sue the hell out of them, so they will see not putting big enough signs for you to read it. It's up to you, just don't cry here after this how unfair this world is. |
Enjoy being ripped of by anyone and everyone.
You make the statement "well your not" ok now go find the relevant law that says so, if not go check contract law or can you not be bothered. If someone says jump and if you drum up the courage to say anything it is to ask how high !
One person on here has posted how at Obergurgl ? ( think it was Obergurgl) they would not refund a day on a 3 day pass but said see if you can sell it "BECAUSE THERE IS NO LAW THAT SAYS YOU CAN'T ONLY SOME THUGS IN SOME COMPANIES WHO WANT YOU TO BE BRAINWASHED YOU CAN'T "
I have no problem with no refund if they say you can try and sell it but if they say no refund and no transfer/sale I have a BIG issue with them and will make them justify why I can not do one of those, because that then is them not even being bothered to even try and pretend they have fair T&C.
There is a law that covers two people using the same lift pass technically at the same time ie 3 people ski together have two passes two go up one skis down with the other persons pass who stays at the top that person gives pass to other skier so all 3 are at the top and can then ski down together "THIS IS FRAUD" no argument call the police charge them I don't care they tried to rip the company off. But this same law does not cover what is being discussed here but I bet most lift companies try to use the same law ILLEGALLY and threaten to do so ILLEGALLY.
Banks/credit card companies tried this and they are much bigger and have an awful lot more power than a poxy ski lift company yet they got brought down or are all those who claimed on PPI just dreaming that they got refunds?
I did not get a refund guess why, I challenged them from the outset because either I was not interested in theirs or for one I would not qualify but hey they pushed and pushed to try and add it but I stuck to my guns as was my LEGAL right .
Yes one true fact the world is unfair I know only too well and a lot is down to people not having the backbone to stand up for their rights, how often I here people say "well what can you do".
What you can do is if someone says or suggests that you may have rights you did not know about go check it out then if you are ever in that situation you are armed. I record all conversations with any officials many have said I have no right yet for many of them when I point out because it is a telephone conversation they state at the beginning calls may be recorded why they think only they have the right to record conversations they pretty soon have to back down.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| midgetbiker wrote: |
I believe even pamw said that if a pass didn't have a name on it (as in Chx or Paradski for example) then it was not unreasonable to assume it could be transferred. |
I bought a Cdmb pass in Cham this January. The woman in the kiosk wrote my name on it in felt tip pen!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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speed098, no argument with the spirit and intention of thought, but as you have admitted already you have been skiing for over 20 years.
Have you ever been able to take them to court for unfair or un-enforceable terms and conditions?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| midgetbiker wrote: |
jogi, I think if you read through the 5pages only speed098 is saying that the T&C's are unfair (or at least unenforceable), everyone else is either firmly in your camp, or merely saying that it should be more obvious that you are not allowed to transfer.
I believe even pamw said that if a pass didn't have a name on it (as in Chx or Paradski for example) then it was not unreasonable to assume it could be transferred. |
I am only saying they are unfair for resorts that do not allow a transfer, for you to sell your ticket, offer a partial refund or admin charge to change the person who can use the pass, if they do offer one or more of these then they have given an option not just said stuff you we got your money, there may still be an argument that they are unfair but would be harder to pursue successfully. Though still not impossible if only one option.
If T&C are not clearly displayed something that is probably more a case from buying lift passes as part of a package holiday then they may not be enforceable as the laws is clear that they must be clear for the person to see prior to purchase. If you buy in resort clear signs directing to T&C and info on the pass, sales staff points this out before taking your money then you have no grounds for complaint re not knowing or seeing the T&C. Even then it may not technically be legal for them to stop you allowing someone to use the pass but it is a lot more mess sorting out legality as you did also knowingly enter a contract with full knowledge of this clause.
So if at the initial point of purchase it was not made clear the T&C may not be enforceable ( may as in you need to prove this do so and they are not enforceable ).
If they offer no alternative you just loose your money then T&C are not fair and contracts ie T&C must if not be fair at least try to be ( most company's will get away with bending the T&C in their favour as long as they are not too blatant about it).
You have a legal right to challenge any T&C of any company you need to deal with and successful challenge depends on many factors most times if their T&C are unfair most company's will either say phrases like "well on this occasion" or "as a good will gesture" and hey you won no need for court because those company's with unfair T&C very rarely want this stuff in court because then they get forced to change the T&C and in the case of credit card company's as an example pay out lots and lots of money.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| ansta1 wrote: |
speed098, no argument with the spirit and intention of thought, but as you have admitted already you have been skiing for over 20 years.
Have you ever been able to take them to court for unfair or un-enforceable terms and conditions? |
No I have not taken a lift company to court I have threatened legal action against company's re their T&C and have won every time because one I stick to my guns two I know what my rights are and also research for each case a bit before hand. I had this last year with a bus company because they did not run service as scheduled then buses later just did not stop. It caused me to be unable to make a train journey they started by pretty much saying tuff then a £10 good will gesture I checked their rules etc wrote back and hey as a good will got the full refund of train tickets as cas.It was about a 40min journey by bus to station and I set off with nearly two hours to go before train departure so over an hour extra on a service supposed to run every ten minutes.
I don't often get issues now though because I know my rights and stick to my guns so threatening legal action these days is getting rare they normally just stop before it gets to that stage and if money is involved refund quickly ( maybe I am becoming notorious  ).
I would have asked the lift company for their T&C read that but normally if you ask for that many would have said well on this occasion you can use it but don't do it again or at worst said well you should not be using it but we can change it to you for an admin fee. Company's do not generally like bad press and if they are trying something on def do not want it to become public knowledge.
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if they are trying something on def do not want it to become public knowledge.
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on the contrary, when it comes to nabbing someone without a legitimate pass I think they do want it to become public knowledge, "pour encourager les autres". If they never checked and never sanctioned anybody, they'd all be at it.
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Sorry doing a lot of posts on this not trying to be disrespectful of anyone here but please if you don't know find out if your not sure question hey you may be pleasantly surprised at what may happen. I hope nobody has to do this it would be great if all company's were respectful of their customers and equally customers did not try and rip company's off but unfortunately both these do happen and challenging costs nothing they can not call the police because you want to first read the T&C.
And jogi, no disrespect sorry to be so harsh but please check things out before saying you can't do something just because a company say you can not, they may in the end be right but do you honestly know till you check? If they are wrong do you really want them ripping you off ?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Vaguely related TV prog. on at the moment, two guys in Horsham trying to target the council parking fine profits. Out of their own pocket they do what they call 'random acts of kindness' and pay for extra parking for cars in council car parks that are about to get parking tickets from the enforcement officers. They buy another hours parking and stick it under the windscreen wiper on the time expired car so that it isn't issued with a parking fine. I wonder how that lines up with ticket transferability laws?
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I wonder how that lines up with ticket transferability laws?
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no problem, I should think - one ticket being bought for one vehicle. There's nothing to say that only the owner of a vehicle may pay for a ticket (I always seem to end up paying for the ticket when with one of my kids. ). Equally no problem if you gave people lift passes as a present. Just for them.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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speed098, failing to provide a scheduled service (as in the bus case) is one thing, but challenging a lift company to prove their t's and c's are not fair is another thing altogether i suspect, particularly if it's a french one (re thread on French ski schools, British ski instructors and leading or guiding)
Whilst morally you may well have the high ground my suspicion is that you would be without a lift pass and maybe worse if you tried it with the lift companies.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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speed098, failing to provide a scheduled service (as in the bus case) is one thing, but challenging a lift company to prove their t's and c's are not fair is another thing altogether i suspect, particularly if it's a french one (re thread on French ski schools, British ski instructors and leading or guiding)
Whilst morally you may well have the high ground my suspicion is that you would be without a lift pass and maybe worse if you tried it with the lift companies.
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| maggi wrote: |
| midgetbiker wrote: |
I believe even pamw said that if a pass didn't have a name on it (as in Chx or Paradski for example) then it was not unreasonable to assume it could be transferred. |
I bought a Cdmb pass in Cham this January. The woman in the kiosk wrote my name on it in felt tip pen! |
Crikey, never seen that.
I bought two this year (one a 7 day for a 18yr old, one a 6 day for an 8yr old) iwas asked for neither name nor asked to prove the age of the 8yr old.
also visitors bought a further 7no 6 or 7 day passes and I saw no names on any of them (not that I go checking, just that they used 'spare' cards i keep in the apt and then they return them after use).
But actually that kind of action is exactly the sort of thing I am asking the companies to do in order to signal to the buyer that the pass is not transferable.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| It would strike me as fairer for resorts to offer refunds on unused tickets, then people might be less inclined to feel that it is their right to use up spare time on tickets which have unexpectedly been left vacant. How many resorts offer refunds? |
Most do if the reason is medical and you get a doctor's certificate saying you could not ski the remaining days.
But none I know of will give any other refund.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Megamum wrote: |
| They weren't trying to defraud the resort out of an extra bum on a lift seat - they were only taking a seat that would have been filled had someone not gone home - personally I think that's a valid thing to do, unless of course they have un/knowingly signed something in the purchase that says lift pass not transferrable. |
They are always non-transferrable IME.
There may be some special "group" passes which can be transferred between members, but I am not aware of any ordinary passes sold direct to retail customers which are transferrable.
And for those asking about the ones the reps sell on the coach - those are still sold to you as an individual, the rep is just acting as an agent in those cases. And many of them will take a photo the first time they are used.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
if they are trying something on def do not want it to become public knowledge.
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on the contrary, when it comes to nabbing someone without a legitimate pass I think they do want it to become public knowledge, "pour encourager les autres". If they never checked and never sanctioned anybody, they'd all be at it. |
If someone is doing something wrong.
They are saying it is not legitimate on what point of law?
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I am happy if not driving to have my bus/train tickets checked I never try to fiddle them I think the bus prices are ridiculous here but hey just means I use them when it is to my advantage cost wise so they loose out on more regular income from me, maybe others don't care maybe they do the same as me that is their choice. Train prices are pretty good though for the journeys I do.
If they say that you have just lost those extra days tuff luck and offer no alternatives such as another poster has said Obergurgl did ie sell the ticket if you can, I think they would rather talk it through than get the police. They have to prove the T&C are fair if they can not do so they will loose. If they offer an alternative this really strengthens their case that the T&C are fair.
The fact that is undisputable is the pass is legitimate it is not a forgery or stolen, the question is can they stop you allowing a friend or relative using it if you are not going to? Because the fee has been paid for the use that day, and a legal right of contract to provide the service for that day has been entered, they argue no, only the original person can use it, if they provide options if that person can not then fine but if not then the T&C are not fair for both parties
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| ansta1 wrote: |
speed098, failing to provide a scheduled service (as in the bus case) is one thing, but challenging a lift company to prove their t's and c's are not fair is another thing altogether i suspect, particularly if it's a french one (re thread on French ski schools, British ski instructors and leading or guiding)
Whilst morally you may well have the high ground my suspicion is that you would be without a lift pass and maybe worse if you tried it with the lift companies. |
Morally and legally? and yes as it is a French company with the recent press re SB and SCGB maybe they will still do it but that does not mean what they do is legal.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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So alex_heney, You can only get a refund on medical grounds after paying for a medical note? you can not transfer the lift pass you can not get a refund or credit for unused days ? If that is the case when you look at the company's other terms and conditions re lifts not running acts of god etc etc then pretty easy case to show that the lift company not only want the cake and eat it but want you to buy the ingredients make it bring it round and feed it to them.
But a previous post re Obergurgl shows a different side and even though yet another country from the OP issue does show that T&C can be more fair and the lift company would be hard pressed to justify not offering a similar option as Obergurgl. Examples of other company's being more fair on T&C is very good ammunition to show that the company in question are not providing fair T&C.
If we carry on much longer on this I will soon be past 1000 posts 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| midgetbiker wrote: |
| Quote: |
Many lift companys use cameras with facial regonition technology (I know about helmets, scarves etc). For example in the Arlberg every photo pass issued 7days+ flashes up on the lifties computer.
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You see: that bit is news to me. I had up until now assumed the only photo linked to any pass I or others had was one which we supplied.
What I am still not getting is why the lady referred to in the OP had supplied a name in order to get a 4 day pass (which then allowed the photo from the USA to be linked to the 4 day pass). I freely admit though that for several years all I have bought in the way of passes are annuals for Mont Blanc Unlimited and occasional day passes for other resorts (plus one touring ticket for Grand Montets, because I am a hopeless forgetful buffoon). Oh and week passes for guests visiting us in Chx, where a name has never been requested.
So maybe you supply a name in other resorts for 4 day passes, is this the case? |
Perhaps she bought it using a credit/debit card? That would automatically give the name.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| speed098 wrote: |
Just to clarify a couple of points as so many have said it is in the terms and conditions so therefore wrong or even possibly illegal.
How many have had refunds from credit cards because of what they did under their terms and conditions ?
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Not very many.
But some. However, this has no relevance.
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A company's terms and conditions have no real relevance in law if they clash with laws.
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Agreed. But I have seen nothing to suggest these might.
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Terms and conditions have to be fair to both parties and transparent, so please do not say you have no right to transfer something you paid for.
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It is the norm, and it is quite clear in the T&C, so it is simple fact.
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It was paid you have a right to use it and if that means you allow someone else who is eligible for it at the same price to use it we should be asking these company's to justify why they say we can not do so, what laws say we can not do so and their terms and conditions can and will be challenged.
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You may wish to challenge them.
It will cost you the court fees, and you will almost certainly lose.
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It is not stealing it is not fraud you have paid the going rate, ( if two people use it on the same day then yes it could be viewed as stealing or fraud ).
These resorts sharing info in the same season I view as fine but for that to still be used the year after does bring up questions that could well include asking about the legality of such information still being held and shared by company's on different continents.
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We don't know the relevant circumstances here. If the ticket bought at Vail was one of these reloadable ones, then they will keep the details forever, unless the ticket is surrendered at some point.
And if the companies have reciprocal offers, then they obviously have to share the data.
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For those saying oh but it is discounted ie say a 1 day pass is 40 euro's you get a 6 day for 200 euro's go check the price for a season pass in comparison
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Which is (quite naturally) a much bigger discount. What is your point here?
The point is that when you buy a six day pass for yourself, that is cheap[er than if you bought a five day pass for yourself and a one day pass for somebody else.
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and many resorts have discounts for locals. Now I am not saying this is wrong in fact fair play, but short term lift passes are not cheap and even if they would or do give refunds on unused days I would be surprised if you did not get a reduced refund due to admin fee's etc.
I am not trying to say that we are right company's are wrong or vice versa but we do have a right to challenge any company's terms and conditions. |
We do. But is is quite rare that T&C can be successfully challenged in court.
I see no likelihood that the condition saying the pass is not transferrable is one which could be successfully challenged.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Thu 8-05-14 23:46; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| ulmerhutte wrote: |
| One interesting wrinkle... OP's friend appears to not have actually boarded the lift. Clearly the intention was there, but the "crime" had not been committed. Shades of Tom Cruise and "pre-crime"? |
The attempt is enough.
He had passed through the turnstiles.
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speed098, look, fundamentally I agree with you, they, as with lots of other 'providers' are stiffing us, and most people cant be bothered to kick up a fuss, and perhaps we should. However....
Have you ever made a claim against a ski lift company against their terms and conditions?
The bus company had a schedule, which they didn't deliver against, yes the principal of their t's and c's probably said "we are not liable if our bus doesn't turn up on time blah blah" but there is a difference between the non provision of a service and explicitly purchasing a product or service against the published terms and conditions.
ie. You bought a bus ticket, it didn't turn up on time, which you could prove and were impacted as a result. Against You bought a lift ticket for 3 days which explicitly said 'non transferable" you couldn't use 1 day through no fault of the lift company or even worse intended to share it with someone else.
As for the Obergurgl example, it would be interesting to see if they bought it from the lift ticket office, or from one of the resellers in the hotels.
Also please don't confuse legal and non-enforcable and remember the bottom line is 'it is their mountain and lift system' if they really don't like someone they don't have to let them use the infrastructure, unlikely but not impossible.
I'm over 3k posts now so will leave the discussion for others to continue, bottom line for me is I don't agree it's fair and completely right, just like I don't agree with school holiday pricing and lots of other things, but these are probably battles that I can't win and choose to spend energy in more productive places.
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| speed098 wrote: |
If people want to look on a company's T&C as a law that is upto them and I feel sorry for them because they are selling their rights for nothing.
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Most T&C comply with the relevant laws.
Companies as a rule are not stupid, and get the T&C drawn up by lawyers to make sure of that.
There are of course some dishonourable exceptions to this rule
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This company could have this in their T&C very clearly written but not on display for the public and then refuse to provide a copy when requested.
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Incredibly unlikely. I have never come across sucha situation.
And in this case the T&C are almost certainly on permanent display at the ticket office and/or written on the free piste maps or the tickets themselves.
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If that went to court even if a judge accepted that it was in the T&C by law they should have to throw out the case because the company did not make it clear and refused to provide a copy,
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True but irrelevant since every company must know that for T&C to be effective they must be available. No company is going to hide the T&C to such an extent taht the consumer cannot see them reasonably easily.
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even if the company do provide the info if a judge said well you provide no refund or transfer options etc, ie you just loose the money for days un-used they may well decide that the T&C are unfair and still dismiss the case the company brought in front of the judge.
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If there is no refund in any circumstances, they may just possibly decide that term is unfair. But taht still wouldn't make the "no transfer" term unfair, it would just mean the lift company would be obliged to give refunds in some circumstances.
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They could decide in favour of the company and then fine them for refusing to provide a copy or for them being unfair as well, plus order them to pay compensation to the other party.
Though I use the example of a judge deciding it is not a criminal matter judges preside over non criminal matters as well. |
Actually, they couldn't fine them - as you say, it is not a criminal matter. They could order compensation.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| midgetbiker wrote: |
speed098, jinx on the cross posting.
btw when does an on the face of it contract isuue become a criminal one? When I think about it the rail network uses the police to enforce fare dodging and in the UK even has their own 'force' to call on. |
Railways are a special case. I have no idea why.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| midgetbiker, anywhere I've skied in Europe has required pic for 6 day passes, since about 1985 ime. |
Quite a lot don't nowadays.
Certainly none of the resorts I have used in Austria do - but then they do mostly have the photo at tunrstile technology.
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