 Poster: A snowHead
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So, I said, (ref. a question about where to spend most of a season and after recommending the Portes du Soleil, Morzine in particular),
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| Almost anywhere will have good off piste, so I don't think that is a hard criterion unless you want lots of really, really steep stuff. Had some of my best powder days around the PDS. |
snowball, replied,
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I don't agree about "anywhere" having good off-piste, I find that is harder to find than good pistes, though admittedly I prefer steep slopes and going far from the pistes.
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1. Restrict the discussion to Europe as otherwise I think things get too confusing and it's My Ball... 
2. Mention of that one week when you had great powder (or rain) in nineteen canteen will not be welcome.
3. Comments about some resorts being somewhat disingenuous about exactly how often their off-piste paradise is actually paradisical as opposed to risible let alone skiable may be tolerated.
Discuss. Enjoy.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Define good. Define off-piste. Define Europe.
Even Hemel has what one might in a positive frame of mind describe as "good" off piste if your definition is "fun where the punters haven't scraped it to death". You might just have to duck under the pomas to get access to the moderately sweet sugar.
Less charitably there are only really 2 dimensions - terrain and snowfall, plus a human deimension depending on your attitude to fighting Scandis, other Norrona clad bandits or gnarled Scots for lines or how important is it to you to have an entirely blank canvass (personally I'd rather have 3 laps crossing a few tracks than a single pristine run in the same time but others' ratios are different). If it's not steep and deep (+safe) you're trading off somewhere.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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fatbob, don't be so danged difficult.
Good = I will like it. (See what happens?) = steep enough that in average EU powder you can still go faster than you want to if you don't pay attention. Or has trees or other inconveniences requiring avoiding action
Off piste = not pisted today, not pisted earlier in the season, not going to be pisted anytime soon - ideally far enough away or obscure enough that the wearers-of-Norrona won't even think of it
Europe = main Alpine nations: Austria, France, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, Scotland
I see your 2 dimensions and raise you the following, any of those nations primary (i.e. top 10)/secondary (next 15-20) ski stations will more or less get the snowfall if you are there for the season. Terrain is a slightly different question, no?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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What's the question?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Think it actually comes down to anywhere can have decent off piste if the conditions are right, and not too many people have tracked it, though I might disagree with Hemel 
As many will know I've been skiing down in this neck of the woods (Serre Che and La Grave) since 97.
Over the last four years we were fortunate to do 5 weeks at a time, and now for the first time we've been here the whole season.
It is only spending a season that we have really found far more off piste than the more usual routes that the "Scandis, other Norrona clad bandits" are taking first lifts to get to.
We now have our own stashes where we're pretty sure no one's been, and do laps that take in various routes, hoping that the UCPA off piste groups have not taken their groups down, or far worse some internet club of 27 people at the same time 
I've always said that if you know the area really well and snow is on your side then most resorts can deliver.
For us here in Serre we're always amazed when heading over to Montgenevre / Clavierre that there is still so much available a week after a snow fall, on the other hand I have been over to La Grave ten or so times this season expecting some good skiing only to find it quite tracked out (glacier aside), and a few days was with a guide who knows the area inside out, but there were also some memorable days too.
This season I've organised various groups of mates with guides and I've really tried to concentrate on the routes taken with around 75% success rate, I've also devised my own routes where we've packed skins for what might me a 45min skin back up, and this really has made a huge difference to getting more in.
Obviously now we're in the touring season then we go further afield, and skiing a superb spring snow descent can be as good as powder.
Tomorrow have a plan that involves going off the back down into a valley again and then skinning back up for around an hour to a lift, when I saw that option on Monday it was track free, plus hope I can retrieve my gloves that I left on the Col on Monday 
Should also add that right in front of us is a huge off piste sector that I've probably only done 20% off as route planning is quite difficult and access a little difficult, not the type of route my other half is up for, but there again we have been spoilt this season.
Further Edit: If it was just one or two week trips a year then somewhere like skiers lodge is a great option as they will do road trips to get you to the best stashes, see the La Grave trip report in Resort reviews, though don't think they were staying at the Lodge.
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=110069
In fact that's how I ended up in Serre having done a fair number of those!
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Tue 8-04-14 18:10; edited 5 times in total
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Just being difficult because I can.
Let's say we take a geographically close example - St Foy v EK, it all comes down to the individual as to what they prefer. Competition vs variety/breadth. Even the "non mainstream" location isn't exactly unknown undiscovered Resort X Private Powder Paradise though. I think the internet has done for that anyway - check out Powfinder to see the number pof people posting from the Dissentis and Krippenstein type places
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| Weathercam wrote: |
For us here in Serre we're always amazed when heading over to Montgenevre / Clavierre that there is still so much available a week after a snow fall, on the other hand I have been over to La Grave ten or so times this season expecting some good skiing only to find it quite tracked out (glacier aside), and a few days was with a guide who knows the area inside out, but there were also some memorable days too.
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Think this is a good point - the more of a mainstream piste cruisey type of reputation a place has, the better the opportunity. I've always thought I ought to revisit La Plagne in that frame of mind.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| Weathercam wrote: |
For us here in Serre we're always amazed when heading over to Montgenevre / Clavierre that there is still so much available a week after a snow fall, on the other hand I have been over to La Grave ten or so times this season expecting some good skiing only to find it quite tracked out (glacier aside), and a few days was with a guide who knows the area inside out, but there were also some memorable days too.
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Think this is a good point - the more of a mainstream piste cruisey type of reputation a place has, the better the opportunity. I've always thought I ought to revisit La Plagne in that frame of mind. |
Mostly I'd agree, but not always. SkiWelt for instance is a cruisy piste-skiers dream, and no-one skied offpiste. Things don't get tracked out, but with a couple of gnarly exceptions everything is very mellow terrain wise.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Powder day.
One resort.
Two lifts.
6 skiers (4 were us).
Resort name, well that would be telling.
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| under a new name wrote: |
fatbob
Europe = main Alpine nations: Austria, France, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, Scotland
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Can I include Spain?
Picos de Europa, take your skins only one cablecar.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Weathercam wrote: |
| or far worse some internet club of 27 people at the same time |
Oi 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| under a new name wrote: |
ideally far enough away or obscure enough that the wearers-of-Norrona won't even think of it
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But you're unlikely to find this on your first visit to somewhere without hiring a guide or having local mates. When most people ask for good off piste recommendations they mean that there is enough to ski, that is easy to find and that won't be trampled down to a pisted run within 48 hrs. I would bet you can find good off piste anywhere if you know where to look but it's the knowing where to look that is the tricky part.
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You know it makes sense.
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lynseyf,
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I would bet you can find good off piste anywhere
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... being my point ...
Weathercam,
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anywhere can have decent off piste
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I am thinking I am winning...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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At the moment the statement appears to be that "anywhere with snow on it that is also a mountain will be fun to ski...."
Seems obvious, skiing is always fun! Especially as we have discounted the requirement that it needs to be steep
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Poster: A snowHead
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under a new name, you might be "winning" but there is a point that meadow skipping gradients while nice to do a few wiggly pow turns aren't exactly heart pumping. At the extreme (very heavy wet "fresh") I've had to straightline a black slope to keep moving.
snowball I think comes from a position where the steeper and the further from the madding crowds the better and has expressed disappointment with places (e.g. North American skiing) on that basis because at anywhere with a reputation stuff does get tracked uber quickly.
You can skin to win or you can enjoy lots of what you like with more competition close to the lifts. Apparently though you have to go to shitty Meirengen to get the best of both 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I have a lot of sympathy with under a new name's POV on this. While getting long steep offpiste runs in condition is perfect there are two problems
1) everyone thinks so and as a result they get tracked out superfast (e.g., anything obvious in Chamonix, Engleberg)
2) steep lines bring much more avi risk so are in safe condition much less frequently
On balance, if you want to maximise the number of powder turns you are going to get then the less celebrated off-piste resorts are often better. I'd also advocate resorts with good tree skiing (e.g., Sestriere etc) - there's quite a lot of skiers who are well able to track out an alpine bowl on fat skis but not so confident to take on steepish tree skiing, can find untracked in the trees long after everything else is gone.
All that said, off-piste is not all about powder and once everything is skied out then I'd be more interested in skiing steep chalk in Chamonix than playing in the PDS (or similar).
So it's great if you can be a bit flexible and have a car. One of the reasons we're going to base ourselves in Les Contamines. Have pretty much all bases covered withing a short drive from there 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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My view is that local knowledge is king just about anywhere. Having been in Sainte Foy for 7 years now, I've lost count of the number of times when I've come back to the chalet and met guests (or back to the pub and met other seasonnaires) to find them moaning about how the snow is sh*t, how it's just icy/slushy/bumpy/whatever everywhere now, how there's no point going off-piste until it snows again. All that time I'll be thinking "Eh? I rode untracked powder all day!? Not telling you where though...."
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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stevomcd, Not staying with you if the host won't give up the goods
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Not all resorts are good some have expanded the piste map to cover too much of the terrain - that was my experience with Ischgl. This ties to another factor - how many people want to go off piste and so use it all up! Personally, I ski a lot is Davos/Klosters the reason being there is loads of off piste relative to the size of the area and relatively few people going off piste!
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im gonna hide this question in here so that the whole interweb doesnt see it! (and it's semi related)
Anyone know any sneaky one-lift type ski resorts in Austria or switzerland for some secret off-piste? the steeper and less known the better! i will keep it quiet I promise!
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under a new name, yeah but it's the finding it that's hard
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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dulcamara, Megamum once had a thread about 'Resort X' some years ago; that was in Switzeland and apparently it was epic
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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stevomcd, go with that, local knowledge is king, I've spent last 6 or so seasons in and round Schladming, hardly known for off piste and when we first set up base here I was concerned about freeride options having spent lots of time in place like Val/Tignes & St Anton. But with a few local contacts, google earth, maps, summer exploring, packing the skins just in case I have a decent quiver of off piste lines to keep me entertained all season long and an enormous to do list. May lack some higher alpine terrain (though the local Dachstein glacier does) but more than makes up for it with tree runs and the lack of competition fighting for fresh lines. Just add snow!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Maps are the way forward.
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| meh wrote: |
| Maps are the way forward. |
Maps are pretty bad at showing microgeography of specific cliffs, density of trees, vegetation, cow fences etc etc though. Obviously you solve that somewhere like Lofoten or Iceland where the geography is particularly distinct. Google earth stalking FTW in conjunction with a good topo.
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You know it makes sense.
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| dulcamara wrote: |
im gonna hide this question in here so that the whole interweb doesnt see it! (and it's semi related)
Anyone know any sneaky one-lift type ski resorts in Austria or switzerland for some secret off-piste? the steeper and less known the better! i will keep it quiet I promise! |
PM sent
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| SkiingQuinHat wrote: |
| Not all resorts are good some have expanded the piste map to cover too much of the terrain - that was my experience with Ischgl. |
Really? I agree with you about some places, but not Ischgl; there's still an absolute metric poo-poo-tonne of great offpiste terrain there. Two weeks ago we skied plenty of lines through the trees just from the Paznaun Thaya lift, and the Pitz Gronda lift opens up a ridiculous amount of terrain!
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Wed 9-04-14 18:21; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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| dulcamara wrote: |
im gonna hide this question in here so that the whole interweb doesnt see it! (and it's semi related)
Anyone know any sneaky one-lift type ski resorts in Austria or switzerland for some secret off-piste? the steeper and less known the better! i will keep it quiet I promise! |
Yes, but all depends on conditions (can't think of anywhere that'll be great now), and some are a fair bit of a drive for you...
Did you ever ski Rofan (Achensee) when you were in Zilertal? Tiny resort for local families (= private powder on a good day) and a massive touring area higher up. Loads in Ost Tirol too (Obertilliach for one). Zwolferhorn in the Salzkammergut. My mate raves about his home spot Werfenweng, and reckons it's got the best tree skiing in Europe - but hasn't had enough base this season. Supposedly some gnarly spine type features with mandatory bucks in the alpine (skin access) too.
Of course the local freeriders do know their small local spots, but the freeride scene is thankfully pretty small in much of Austria, and many head to the park rather than the skin track when the lift-access stuff dries up.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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jedster,
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off-piste is not all about powder and once everything is skied out then I'd be more interested in skiing steep chalk in Chamonix than playing in the PDS (or similar)
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I would wager you some considerable beer that I could find some nice stuff to play in in the PDS in exactly that position.
I'd totally agree that local knowledge is pretty important unless you're a pro.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Can't help but think there's similarities akin to Surfers being territorial over their secret spots coming to the surface here, which I can "now" sort of understand
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| SkiingQuinHat wrote: |
| Not all resorts are good some have expanded the piste map to cover too much of the terrain - that was my experience with Ischgl. |
Really? I agree with you about some places, but not Ischgl; there's still an absolute metric poo-poo-tonne of great offpiste terrain there. Two weeks ago we skied plenty of lines through the trees just from the Paznaun Thaya lift, and the Pitz Gronda lift opens up a ridiculous amount of terrain! |
Shed loads of untouched OP is what I recall from my last trip to Ischgl too.
I'll be there again this Sunday and pragmatically, not expecting freshies but I'm still expecting to find some nice, untouched spring sugar. I splashed out on the FR 1:25K map with its colour coded 'ski here' zones printed on waterproof 'paper' so I'll have a mind for some new areas to head to.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| meh wrote: |
| Maps are the way forward. |
Maps are pretty bad at showing microgeography of specific cliffs, density of trees, vegetation, cow fences etc etc though. Obviously you solve that somewhere like Lofoten or Iceland where the geography is particularly distinct. Google earth stalking FTW in conjunction with a good topo. |
If it was easy everyone would be doing it, there is definitely some work to do when you get somewhere but that's true anyway because you don't necessarily know the extent of snow cover and condition. Most 'local' stuff in popular areas doesn't get skied as much because you can't physically see it to know it's there. The vast majority of it would also be pretty darn obvious on a map.
Believe it or not but the vast majority of both Norway and Iceland have an awful lot of micro-terrain and not terribly high detail maps. It's pretty common to plan to ski something from a map and then work it out on the ground. Apart from repeats most of my touring here has worked that way.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Or you can just go somwhere where it snows. A lot.
Tuesday was my 97th day on snow this winter skiing the resorts and backcountry of the Shiribeshi area of Hokkaido.
62 of those days have been knee deep or deeper powder.
I've been lucky enough to ski bluebird knee deep powder in the Brecon Beacons National Park, Wales.
Luck plays far far less of a role in this part of Hokkaido.
And there might be people who reply to this post saying 'I went to Hokkaido and didn't get powder'.
You were unlucky. Or you didn't have a car and didn't drive to a nearby resort that did have powder.
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clarky999, horizon, Cheers lads, getting on the research early this year
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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stanton, I used to hang out in de apres ski hut when on business in Rotterdam. You can't fault the Dutch for not trying hard enough to have fun
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FAQ
