 Poster: A snowHead
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Someone mentioned their children skiing independently on another thread and as this is something that I've been giving some thought to recently, I was wondering what other people have done about giving their children freedom to explore the slopes on their own.
For me, its not just an issue of skiing competence (obviously, they have to be good enough), its more about being able to read a piste map and having the spatial awareness to negotiate other people on the slopes.
My OH is on a skiing weekend and yesterday helped out two children (he thinks locals) who had got themselves into difficulty off-piste. No harm done and age isn't the only factor in off-piste problems, but it is another factor to put into the mix.
I am thinking that around 10 years old would be a good age for my children (assuming that they were reasonably familiar with the area).
What have other people done and how has it worked out?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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My eldest is 13 and a competent skier on all blues and reds and starting a bit of off piste in my company but I wouldn't let her go off and completely do her own thing. I will allow her to ski down below me but generally not completely out of view. I personally think 10 is too young, naïve and world widely incompetent to be left alone. Like most judgements of this nature it's all okay until the wheel comes off. You know your kids best though.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'd say it depends what you mean by 'skiing independently'?
if you mean, you're on the same run and lift, but skiing separately, and they're maybe out of sight but only half a minute away if you have to get to them in a hurry, that's one thing.
If you mean, 'See you at the Blanchot at lunch' I'd say it's way too young (I'm sure you mean the former though?).
I let my kids do the former but not the latter (they're 13, skiied every year since they were four, are perfectly competent, and can read a piste map; I'm just not sure they are mature enough to cope with something unforeseen).
A lot depends on the kids, and the particular ski area, of course, but I think 10 might be a bit too young for either option myself.
If something happened - and I know this is the least of your problems if it does - I'd wonder about your legal position?
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Depends a lot on the kids and the resort. And I would completely forbid "off piste" for a 10 year old. A ten year old who is used to navigating streets alone, maybe using buses, should be absolutely fine in a family resort, with a sibling or friend and some clear ground rules. Of course something could go wrong. Something can always go wrong but they have to start somewhere. But a 10 year old who has never even been allowed to go to a local shop alone? No, you wouldn't let them loose in a ski resort.
I'd make them aware that I am quite likely to be spying and if there's any nonsense, they're grounded.
I'm trying to remember what age mine were. I do remember coming across no 2 son, sitting beside a piste smoking.  He was as shocked to see me as I was to see him - and I hasten to add he was certainly older than 10.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Interesting question....Judging from skiing with my friends kids...I'd let a couple of sensible 9/10 year olds loop a simple run around me while I had coffee outside in a cafe (with them spinning by to say hi each time they passed) or pick their own line down the same piste and meet me at the lift. Or let them do a different 'route' to the same meeting point say 500m downhill. As they get a bit older, picking their own runs from and to the same lift and then I think 13 or 14 would be my age limit for introducing totally free form - "do what you like and see you back at the chalet" starting with an hour before meeting again for lunch or similar and building up from there as they get older (on piste!). I'd expect to be able to let a group of 15 year olds ski together for a morning/afternoon without supervision and I've known some 14 year olds I'd be quite happy with doing the same. If you have already prepped by having them 'in charge' of the family group before then they have the skills and they have to go it alone to realise that they can do it. At 16 I guess it's probably time to officially allow offpiste without you? From 18 they'll be off on their own completely and it seems better they get the practice while you are actually IN the resort with them at least.....Although it does seem a bit terrifying given how fearless the teens I know are....
All that said the kids and teens I'm skiing with are not MINE, which I assume gives a different perspective  Even so it's not easy to decide how much rope is the right amount and how much is enough to hang yourself!
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Mon 24-02-14 19:10; edited 1 time in total
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| northernsoulboy wrote: |
I let my kids do the former but not the latter (they're 13, skiied every year since they were four, are perfectly competent, and can read a piste map; I'm just not sure they are mature enough to cope with something unforeseen) |
I have noticed with the kids we know (not skied with them all, but in daily life) that there seems to be a big jump between 12/13 and 14/15 - at 14 most seemed much older and more capable, not kids at all anymore. That said I know some ADULTS I'm not sure can cope with the unforseen 
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When I was about 8 or 9 I was left by myself at Glenshee (my dad was at glenshee but on other runs) and told to do these two runs and no others for about an hour or two and that was fine, though I had asked if I could ski by myself. When I was 15 I was left to my own devices in Scheffau, but I knew that resort very well and it's not that big. I think it probably depends on the child because my brother would not be trusted to go off by himself whereas I would be. It's probably better in a smaller resort because there is less chance they'll get lost, though that doesn't matter if they fall.
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| a.j. wrote: |
| At 16 I guess it's probably time to officially allow offpiste without you? |
Not sure about that. Possibly between pistes- i.e. between blue runs del within resort on the same angled/ aspect slopes as the blues. But elsewhere?
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When they pay there own way 
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I have mixed feelings about this one. My two (11 and  can ski well enough but the thought of an injury through collision (especially the 8 year old) fills me with dread. 10 years old is too young imho. They don't have the maturity to make good decisions (most of the time)
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It's probably better in a smaller resort because there is less chance they'll get lost, though that doesn't matter if they fall.
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We let the eldest (at 9) loop a lift at a small resort with only one way down. He decided to go through trees and disappeared for a while. Hence the current ban on unaccompanied skiing. The terror that I felt when I skied the same piste twice and couldn't see him is still a strong memory. Fortunately he had just stopped off piste in the trees for a wee.
On the other hand they can be surprisingly resilient when issues arise. Last year they were with a couple of friends who were relative beginners. My boys got 'lost', or more likely lost sight of the two they were supposed to be with and needed to get back to the apartment. They managed, going over two lifts and sliding on alongside random adults despite the youngest, at 7, being too small to go without an adult. They made it back perfectly well and were more concerned about the two they were supposed to be skiing with
a.j., seems to have it about right. Training them up seems to matter. Give them choices about where to ski, ask them to navigate and pick routes home before letting them loose seems to work ok. Let them pick their own lines but enforce the 'stop at junctions and crests' rule.
Keen to see how others with older children managed the transition though.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Are the parents who have mentioned concerns about collisions thinking that the kids are more likely to get hit if they are skiing unaccompanied? I don't see why that should be the case and I suspect some parents over-estimate their magic powers to protect their kids. Collisions and other serious injuries to kids are (thankfully) pretty rare. It would be terrible if they were hit by a car when they were on their way to school, too, but that doesn't mean you'd walk a 12 year old to school, does it?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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As it's possibly my comments that are being referred to I will add that the independent skiing is on a defined set of slopes and lifts. The example for this weekend was one chair within sight of the seat I was sitting on and a steady circuit was 12 minutes and 15 seconds. They could have gone one chair lower if they made a mistake bit that would have made the loop 16 minute maximum without issue. They only had a very limited number of options and they always skied together.
This is in my view the equivalent of letting them play in the street we live in, for sure there is risk, but there is risk in everyday life. Not defending my position, merely clarifying. To add one thing, I try to get the eldest to lead us around the mountain so she understands piste maps and how to navigate, at this time she can't to a level that I would let her free on a wider scale, despite me being happy that she can ski any marked piste.
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pam w, doubt an accident is any more likely, but if it did happen I'm not sure you could expect a 10 year old kid to phone for mountain rescue if his brother/sister hurt themselves.
I was skiing unsupervised with a group of friends around the 13/14 year old mark, though in a small resort we knew VERY well. Including skiing offpiste too, not that parental supervision would have made any difference there as we were skiing better than our parents at that point, and they had no avalanche knowledge either. Parents did make us speak to the local hotel staff about routes we were planning on the map though so we wouldn't wander into something too much over our heads, but everything we were playing on was pretty mellow.
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You know it makes sense.
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I'm not sure you could expect a 10 year old kid to phone for mountain rescue if his brother/sister hurt themselves.
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Well you probably could, actually, but I doubt they'd need to - you wouldn't be letting kids ski by themselves on some deserted piste would you? There are plenty of people who would stop and help.
My 4 year old daughter phoned a neighbour when her father was having a bad diabetic hypoglycaemic episode. She always had a chocolate bar hidden away in case he needed it (and though she loved chocolate she loved her dad more and never ate it). My son did similarly when he was about 8. His dad had driven to the school, with 1 year old baby in car seat, to pick the boys up from Cubs. Dan realised his dad was behaving oddly - he was going to drive off with the baby not strapped into her car seat (which was unthinkable) and just shouting at Dan to do up his own belt. So Dan refused, got out, took the car keys and ran back into school to tell the Cub leader and get help.
There is nothing particularly different or special about my kids - but I think we often underestimate what they can do. Most ten year olds, these days, are more than capable with a mobile phone and teaching them about how they can get help in different situations is pretty basic.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Remembering my youth (a difficult thing to do) we would wander off unaccompanied by adults over quite large areas and for very long times on foot and by bicycle, often being away all day. No one seemed that worried about it.
My answer to the original question would not be a specific age but rather "when they want to"
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Poster: A snowHead
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We had ours (11 and 13) doing a blue run that ended up at the same lift whilst me and my mate did some other stuff last week - I think he was initially surprised that I was happy to let them do the run on their own, but the pistes crossed in a few places so we waited so we could see them, then cracked on. They have phones with the Maprika app on, so I can see a dot on the piste map where they are anyway.
I was out climbing in the Lakes on my own at their age - I suspect there's rather more to go wrong on a crag somewhere up Dunnerdale than on a blue run in Les Arcs.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Are the parents who have mentioned concerns about collisions thinking that the kids are more likely to get hit if they are skiing unaccompanied? I don't see why that should be the case and I suspect some parents over-estimate their magic powers to protect their kids.
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pam w, logical thinking and being a parent are not compatible
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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logical thinking and being a parent are not compatible
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That's a copout, Boris.
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pam w, copout? I don't think so, just stating a personal view. Sometimes decisions we make as parents just don't make any logical sense. For example - at camp sites I'm happy the kids disapear for hours on end with other kids I don't know in an environment I don't know. I'm twitchy as hell when they go down the local park with school friends I've known for 8-years - go figure
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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northern soul, I have to say that we let the children ski in front of us now and choose the stopping points and they are only 8. We started off telling them when to stop and now we let them choose the piste marker (usually to or three in front) and they shoot off. My OH tries to keep up, but when we have mixed abilities in the group, they can often be out of sight. They have without fail, done what they are told and chosen sensible places to stop. My logic is that although they may be out of sight for a few moments, as we are behind them, we'll come across any problems soon enough!
I think that the extent of the leash that we give them is what I'm thinking about. I would say that our children are quite independent and as pam_w said, it would depend on how well they know the resort. I don't think that we'll be able to keep them with us until they are teenagers, though...
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| pam w wrote: |
| Are the parents who have mentioned concerns about collisions thinking that the kids are more likely to get hit if they are skiing unaccompanied? I don't see why that should be the case and I suspect some parents over-estimate their magic powers to protect their kids. Collisions and other serious injuries to kids are (thankfully) pretty rare. It would be terrible if they were hit by a car when they were on their way to school, too, but that doesn't mean you'd walk a 12 year old to school, does it? |
I don't have any magic powers, but I definitely make it less likely my kids will have an accident, mostly by acting as an additional pair of eyes and ears.
Of course, you can't protect against the unforeseeable, but a lot of stuff they can't (or don't seem able to) foresee, I can and do.
'Have you looked uphill?'
'Watch that idiot over there, let him go by, he can't ski as well as he thinks he can.'
'Be careful if you want to go into those trees, there's a lot of roots and holes etc.'
'Sure, you can schuss from here, but watch out for x y or z.'
The comparison with school is false - one or two weeks a year I can be with them all day, in an environment where there is no pavement, licensing, or police cars.
As they get older, I obviously watch and advise them less and less - on our New Year holiday I and my wife were in the same area as them, but they were often out of our sight - but the original poster was talking about a child of 10 and my kids, no dummies, certainly needed close-ish watching and advising at that age.
But really, it's up to the individual parent, who knows his or her child better than anyone else.
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| pam w wrote: |
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I'm not sure you could expect a 10 year old kid to phone for mountain rescue if his brother/sister hurt themselves.
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Well you probably could, actually, but I doubt they'd need to - you wouldn't be letting kids ski by themselves on some deserted piste would you? There are plenty of people who would stop and help.
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I don't know, could well end up that way! Assuming we mean 'really skiing alone' as opposed to just lapping a short piste past the cafe that Mum and dad are sitting in.
Quite different asking a neighbour for help and speaking over the phone to someone who may not speak great English (the two times I've had to call piste rescue were entirely in German as they spoke extremely poor English) whilst articulating exactly where they are with no road signs or shops in sight (the blue run down from the chairlift that goes up from the right side of the village probably won't cut it...), making the victim comfortable and marking the spot so no-one skis into them.
No guarantee that an adult can do that either, but you'd hope they'd be better equipped to work it out.
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FWIW as 12/13 ish teenagers when we learned to ski, my bro and I never really skied with our parents as far as I can remember, we usually skied with the rep's group if there was one or else hooned around on our own once out of lessons. We'd have been horrified if we hadn't been trusted to go about town or to friends on our own at that age & I don't think parents really considered a well marked resort with lots of people to ask if there was a problem was any different.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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....
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Mon 24-02-14 21:36; edited 1 time in total
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I don't think so, just stating a personal view. Sometimes decisions we make as parents just don't make any logical sense.
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But don't we have a responsibility to recognise when we are not thinking straight, to try to think things through more logically and to give the kids some sensible reasons, when we take decisions on what is allowed, or not allowed?
Or do you say "Sorry bud, I know I'm making no sense, your arguments are perfectly correct but I'm not interested in truth or logic, just do what you're told".
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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pam w, of course we do and as they get older it is easier to have sensible and rational debates with them - but I am wiling to bet I am not the only parent who has ended discussion by saying "because I said so"
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Boris wrote: |
| pam w, of course we do and as they get older it is easier to have sensible and rational debates with them - but I am wiling to bet I am not the only parent who has ended discussion by saying "because I said so" |
Especially when it comes to bed time 
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Boris I agree with your point that behaviour changes depending on our environment and I wonder whether my relaxed attitude to letting children off on their own is the same your campsite effect. I'm with pam_w that children are often more capable than we give them credit for, but its getting the balance right that's hard.
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You know it makes sense.
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I am wiling to bet I am not the only parent who has ended discussion by saying "because I said so"
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Absolutely - and there's a time and a place for "because I said so". But if you are going to "give reasons" for rules and decisions, you had better make sure they are good ones, or be prepared to listen to counter-arguments and be prepared to change your mind if your reasons are found to be wanting.
And you can - and should - have sensible and rational discussions with quite young children.
Most British skiers, of whatever age, would be completely flummoxed if they had to speak to piste rescue entirely in French, German or Italian. But again, depends on context. In the resorts I usually ski in you are never far from a piste marker which tells you what piste you are on and how far down it. And never far, either, from a native speaker who will be more than willing and able to help. I saw an elderly couple, from a chairlift. He was hurt, she seemed to be panicking, no help, very upset. A little group of 4 older teenage skiers seemed to have stopped and started to help - and were no doubt swiftly joined by others.
I'm trying to think of an example of stuff I did when I was 10. Last year of junior school. Used to walk about half a mile to pick up my friend from her house, to go swimming. We had to decide whether to go by bus, or walk and have a bit more to spend on sweets afterwards. I wouldn't have been allowed to go on my own, but OK with a friend. In the early years of secondary school I used to take my young brother and sister to Roath Park, on the bus, and if we were rich enough, take a rowing boat out. If we weren't rich enough, it was the paddle boats. A bit older - probably about 14 - a group of 4 or 5 of us could get the train and go for a walk up The Garth (our local very small mountain) and try to light fires. We must have been about 15 or 16 when one of my friends did her "Queens Guide" award which involved leading a patrol camp - also on The Garth. The whole point of the exercise was that there were no adults and we were on our own, up a mountain, all night. With no phones, needless to say. It's probably prohibited, these days.
Graduated challenges. In my view two competent and sensible ten year olds allowed to "free ski" for an hour in familiar territory, in good conditions, are in no more danger than the same 10 year olds climbing trees on a camp site or on their scooters in the skate park.
Never have the statistics of child mortality and morbidity been so good, and never have parents been so paranoid.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Never have the statistics of child mortality and morbidity been so good, and never have parents been so paranoid.
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indeed, doesn't make it wrong and doesn't make it right.......All in the eye of the beholder to some degree.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Was perfectly happy for my 13 year old to find her way round L2A when she said she wanted to take herself to her snowboard lesson and come and find us after last year. She knows her way round, even though she point blank refuses to use it when I'm around her French is good enough to cope with the sort of things likely to happen on a ski slope and of course like any teen never goes anywhere without her phone!
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 24-02-14 22:42; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Not sure I'd be happy with my 10 year old let loose on his own assuming his skiing was at the right level.. That said he can be very sensible.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Thornyhill, Yup, same here with my 13 year old, the look of horror on her face is a picture whenever I suggest she gets the bus to/from Derby or Ashbourne, hadn't though to mention to her she is perfectly happy finding her own way, via the available transport network, over miles of snowy French mountain!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| davkt wrote: |
| ... like any teen never goes anywhere without her phone! |
I thought that. Til my mate lost not one, but two 16 year old lads on the same day in PdS. Neither had a mobile phone...
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| Quote: |
the look of horror on her face is a picture whenever I suggest she gets the bus to/from Derby or Ashbourne
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that's because she prefers to go everywhere by car, no doubt. don't we all? 
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pam w, with her own personal on call free taxi service!
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andy from embsay, difference between lads and lasses I guess, more likely mine will have two phones on her (phone for phoning, Blackberry for BBM) and unthinkable (to her) she won't have one!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Yep, you'd have though my 18yo's world had ended when she managed to break her wifi dongle and I handed her the end of an ethernet cable as a quick fix that didn't involve a 30 mile round trip to PC World!
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FAQ
