 Poster: A snowHead
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Humpfknick, I really need to get more sleep at the weekends 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Haha! It's the indoctrinated guilt- we apologise for everything 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I think there are 2 issues and I would separate them as such.
The late starts :- Whilst annoying and not great as parents we all know it's sometimes difficult to corral children and get them organised, its often IME made worse by other parents turning up late (as in at 9am for a 9am start) whilst still having to go through the checking routine to make sure they have chocolate, gloves, passes, boots done up etc etc. Some parents it seems think a 9am start means be at the meeting point at 9am and then make sure Your child is ready. It did often annoy me a little that we turned up and the kids were ready to rock and slide by 8.45, others turned up at 9 there is not much that can be done. Also appreciate that some children perhaps shouldn't be in the same level and have trouble getting ski's on or getting on lifts. Again annoying but it happens and there is not a lot that can be done by the instructor at the time without really causing upset or delay for the group as a whole or individuals.
Losing children :- It does happen sometimes when there is a snake of 12 children that some fall over or get left a little way behind but I don't agree it's acceptable to completely lose one, it's the instructors responsibility to ensure he or she keeps all their pupils within reasonable sight and control. Putting them on lifts with other adults is okay in my book as long as those adults helping accept the position (though its difficult to actually define that level of responsibility post issue I would guess), and they are in my view within their remit to say to an instructor 'no' if he asks them to look after a child on a chair or bubble. If I say my child standing alone on the side of the piste with no instructor in sight I would have been sorely tempted to drag them off the mountain and wait for the panicked call from the instructor so say they had lost my child, but would only have done this after waiting for a sufficient time for the group to circle the lift/run to pick them up. Both of ours (8/13) now have a degree of free reign to ski certain lifts and runs (together) but without us, but this is always with us within a reasonable distance and know what to do if they have any problems.
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ansta1, you'd expect them to be on the lift by 9.15 latest though wouldn't you? Not 10 or later.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Layne wrote: |
| ansta1, you'd expect them to be on the lift by 9.15 latest though wouldn't you? Not 10 or later. |
On the lift, yes.
Bit actually skiing perhaps not for another 15-30 minutes given getting a group of perhaps 10-12 on chairs or a gondola, getting them off and ready to ski.
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K8T, The comments here re the big 'official' schools are a regrettably common experience. I have accumulated a lot of experience re coaching in Switzerland and France - in ESF and ESS I just can't see how kids can learn much in the big groups of 13 or so. It's often a difficult and alienating experience. I and friends have had very dismissive responses from offices and instructors when raising legitimate objections to poor coaching - see my post below - and although I know some excellent individual instructors in the official schools the quality and overall model means that I would never again use them or recommend them. Contrast this with the excellent New Generation school in Courchevel and Swiss Mountain Sports in Crans Montana. Both have small group size, excellent grouping by ability and a true coaching model. This last week, my son was in a group of four. These were highly competent 12-14 year olds, able to do air and ski with precision, speed and safety. They looked askance at my tiny 8 year old joining them. Rolling eyes, nudges and winks. After a few minutes they understood why he had been grouped with them, as he tracked the instructor precisely, carved tight short turns everywhere in zero viz, and did a few nice tricks in the air. At the end of the lesson, much high-fiving between them all. That's how it should be - and New Gen and SMS make damn sure that it's the approach from 2 year-olds through to adults.
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valais2, I think as a generalisation your points above are not far wrong. However in defence ever so slightly of ESF (but probably more to do with the TO) for the past few years before last week in Austria our 2 have been with ESF through Esprit in Courchevel and maximum class size was 8 I think, and usually accompanied by an esprit snow ranger (nee fallen child collector)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thank you for all your thoughts, lots of good points to think about. I haven't contacted them, I think one poster summed it up and said that, she found them, all was OK, ESF probably would take very little notice.
Valais2 we used New Gen. In La Tania 2 years ago, they were great. Also she started with SMS in Austria when she was 4 they were brilliant over a two year period, (3 ski trips). Your experience with the other school summed up how I felt.
I think it has made us think about the true benefit of group lessons and also having a contingency in place if things go wrong along with a 'plan'. Next year she will have a phone. I am however proud of her calmness about it all, she hasn't been scarred!!! Far from it, I think she felt a sense of achievement.
I feel a bit miffed and let down by ESF, we put our most precious possession in their trust and they fail.
As a side note today D was doing an impression of her ski instructor, 'follow me, down ze 'ill, do vat I do' she cried and proceeded to put a set of poles under one arm and pretend to text with two thumbs on an imaginary phone..... Out of the mouths of babes 
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| Quote: |
As a side note today D was doing an impression of her ski instructor, 'follow me, down ze 'ill, do vat I do' she cried and proceeded to put a set of poles under one arm and pretend to text with two thumbs on an imaginary phone..... Out of the mouths of babes
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brilliant. Sounds like she thrived on it all. good kid.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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If she's like my daughter she will laugh about it in years to come and it will become a badge of pride for her strength - doesnt however stop me being angry about the actual incident.
Mind you there was also the time we forgot our own daughter when she was 8 in Val Thorens and got on a lift minus her without realising, she got on the lift behind on her own and wasnt tall enough to be able to pull the safety barrier down......cue lots of abuse from lift attendant who only noticed when lift was airborne and had to climb up to lift her down.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I remember going to Wembley with my kids and you could get these wrist bands that you could write their name and a contact number on. Good idea I thought. Kids do have a habit of wandering off. Lost one in Ikea once, who have to say were very impressive in sorting out. Lost two in MK shopping centre. Shoot, I am beginning to sound like a clown of a parent
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You know it makes sense.
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Layne, losing them is okay, but teaching them to ski is another thing.... Damn did I drag that old one up again.... Sorry. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
Lost one in Ikea once, who have to say were very impressive in sorting out. Lost two in MK shopping centre. Shoot, I am beginning to sound like a clown of a parent
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Maybe don't aim for a career as a ski instructor.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Stop it you two 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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K8T, I'd complain - or at least "give feedback". The head of the ESF in Sainte Foy (Laurent) is pretty helpful. Most of the instructors in Sainte Foy are pretty decent, but you get the odd duffer.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I do think the quality of ESF varies between resorts We personally don't use ESF for our kids anymore - in school hols some of their classes have 12 or 13 kids in them.
Depending on which resort you go to there are some really good alternatives.
For example, in Meribel there is the French run Magic in Motion ( instructors speak excellent English) , the British run New Generation or the British run Parrallel lines. All are excellent and will not allow anymore than 8 in a class - our children enjoyed their ski lessons with these providers far more than with ESF.
Newgen are based in about 5 resorts now although originally started in Courcheval. Just google them for details
As we own a property near Meribel our guests benefit from a 5% discount which each of these ski schools. Even with the discount, the lessons cost a bit more but, in my view, you get what you pay for.
They all do excellent adult lessons as well.
With all our kids as other posters already said, we also make sure they have our mobile numbers with them - a sticker on the back of their ski helmets & a card in pocket ( pre-fixed with the +44) just in case. The know to ask someone to call that number if they ever got lost. And the older ones have a cheap mobile phone as well - just in case.
Agree with Pam W - quality of ski school is a much higher priority than a hot tub.
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I passed through Arc 2000 yesterday and the first two snakes of kids I saw had 13 in each group. One group wore ESF bibs and the other had Esprit bibs; all the kids appeared to be infant school age. By way of comparison, most bodies in the UK (eg ATL, NSPCC) seem to recommend an adult/child ratio of no more than 6:1 for day trips to dangerous places like museums.
Apart from the obvious risk of kids getting lost, it's impossible for a class of 13 to be an effective learning environment. Individual feedback will be non-existent, and the child at the back will always struggle to hear the instructor's voice.
I would refuse to place my children with an organisation that doesn't have a sensible policy on class sizes. This week, a 6 year-old in our chalet in Ste Foy (the same resort as the OP) had a very positive experience with Snocool. They guarantee a maximum class size of 6 - perfect.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Jonny Jones, esprit promise that spritets age 3-4 is 1-6 max ratio and sprites age 5 up, no more than 1-8 ratio.
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| NickyJ wrote: |
| Jonny Jones, esprit promise that spritets age 3-4 is 1-6 max ratio and sprites age 5 up, no more than 1-8 ratio. |
Interesting. I definitely counted 13 Esprit bibs with only one instructor. I used Esprit once when our kids were young, so I was surprised to see that standards had slipped and I double-checked. Maybe a one-off, but I trust my own eyes.
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Don't use BASS either. They tend to make changes to the number of days and class composition pretty much every day of the week.
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FAQ
its only down the road - only one road to cross, which has traffic lights and crossing.
