 Poster: A snowHead
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rjs, yes, agreed, but in my mind that's not to do with pressure so much as balance (ie where your body goes as you create big angles). In the shorter turns, the trigger word 'bicycle' makes me push on my feet as if on pedals. Not talking racing techniques here, btw, I'm just an intermediate recreational skier!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Pedantica, Maybe think about pressure in longer turns as well. Keep the same pedalling action, just match the rate to the size of turn.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rjs, noted, and I don't necessarily - in my relative ignorance - disagree, but this thread is more about not thinking about pressure (just letting forces build up by themselves) and that was what was captured my attention! 
Will be interesting to see how rob@rar and flangesax reply in due course.
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Pedantica, when we are carving clean turns the dominant steering element by far is edge control. Yes, large forces will build up so part of the skill is to manage those, and at the same time we want to minimise as far as possible any twisting/rotation of the skis. It is not necessary to add pressure at the beginning of the turn, as simply standing with good balance on your skis and make sure you keep tipping them to larger edge angles is all you need to do for a clean carved turns. That said, the moment the ski is on an edge and engaged with the snow (which will happen if you are well balanced on it) the forces will begin to build up as the ski begins to change direction. So, is that adding pressure or is that being balanced? Semantics perhaps. I used to think that actively adding pressure by extending your (outside) leg helped with the set-up phase of the turn. These days I tend to think this is more about making sure you set up a solid platform and get well balanced on the ski the moment the turn starts. This was reinforced by a brief conversation I had with Ron LeMaster last year about this topic. Whatever the precise answer, for me that's very much at the margins of what is required for a clean carved turn (which isn't being measured against the clock). I'm sure I will have said this to you at some point, but one of the coaches I've used is fond of saying "you only need one effing ski, you just have to effing stand on it". I like that. Keeps it simple. Or "bicycle". Or "cake".
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, I get the feeling that "just be balanced" as a mantra isn't helping the OP.
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rjs, Without having seem him ski, I'd say that the whole debate about pressure is a red herring. If he's dropping to the inside of the turn he clearly is out of balance, so on snow I'd want to work with him to address that. Difficult to say anything other than "just be balanced" via the internet rather than ""add some pressure". The downside of chatting about technique in the absence of snow on which to ski...
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Actually, it does occur to me that your argument, rob@rar, makes learning that there are three ways to turn the skis, involving edges and/or pivot and/or pressure (see, I have been listening) slightly misleading. If pressure is something that takes care of itself, the mantra should perhaps be edges, pivot, balance? And - whilst I don't claim to understand the physics - I think it's a bit more than just semantics, isn't it? Ah, where is GrahamN when you need him?!
Help, I need to be careful. Getting involved in technical discussion in BZK has got me into trouble before.  It's certain that I know nothing about physics, and I ain't that good at skiing either, so my view is really not of significance. Note to self: get back in box.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I like using virtual equipment - you can't drop it and you don't have to put it away at the end of the day!
For carving, what works for me, is to imagine I'm carrying a large curved blade (like on to front of a snowplough - although that name gets confusing in a skiing context). It's lying on my arms from my wrists to my shoulders and I'm using it to scrape some imaginary powder lying on the piste. That gets me in a strong stance, hands low and wide, pushing everything forwards firmly. For an extra tweak I imagine that the other skiers have pushed the snow to the sides so, with each turn, I have to push the outside of the blade forward slightly so as to scrape some of it back into the middle.
Then I just roll my skis from side to side slowly and progressively, pausing ever so slightly just after they've attained a new edge. The pressure will come because you are not travelling in a straight line but accelerating your body round a curve. You will feel the centripetal force (a lot of it) up through your legs. It's just like hanging on to a spinning roundabout as kids - let go and you'd carry on in a straight line. We used say it was centrifugal force trying to throw you off the roundabout but your average physicist these days will tell you it's the cenripetal force that's holding you on.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Sun 2-03-14 16:28; edited 1 time in total
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Pedantica, there will be times when my focus is to actively add as much pressure as I can, in deep snow at least in some circumstances.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
Quote:
I'm sure I will have said this to you at some point, but one of the coaches I've used is fond of saying "you only need one effing ski, you just have to effing stand on it".
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Someone tell franz Clammer
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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From what the OP is saying, it sounds like he is putting his skis on edge, but leaning into the hill instead of being more over his downhill ski.
This leads to most of the weight being on the uphill ski and loss of edge grip on the downhill ski.
Is your upper body rotating...?
I find a good way to help with this and create some separation and angulation, is to do the same J turn drill across the hill, but when doing so, place both hands on the top of the boot that is on the downhill ski. That will stop you leaning into the hill and get you over your downhill ski more.
The pressure will automatically build up as you prevent your mass moving down the fall line, by steering your skis across the hill.
Hockey stops on a steeper hill with firm pole plant will also achieve the same position and good edge grip.
Try it...it works well with many intermediates I teach who are going from skidding their turns to carving.
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spud, J-turns on one leg also works well (and makes sure they don't break at the waist). Outside ski at first, and then for those who are doing well and you want to encourage big lateral moves, J-turn on the inside ski.
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You know it makes sense.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| spud, J-turns on one leg also works well (and makes sure they don't break at the waist). Outside ski at first, and then for those who are doing well and you want to encourage big lateral moves, J-turn on the inside ski. |
I find J turns on the downhill ski only works with skiers who are quiet proficient, and often leads to lesser intermediates losing balance and leaning backwards on their ski as it steers across the hill.
As for the other drill...even my best race kids struggle with that one...as do I...need a bit more yoga in my life 
The one drill I like to do after J turns is Step,step, Arc.... as it promotes pretty much every skill
For those who don't know it, the skier makes two forward and uphill steps across the hill...as the second step is made, the skier balances tall on the uphill ski and steers the ski into the fall line, where they then complete a full arc. At the end of the arc the skier again performs the two strongly balanced steps forward and uphill off the downhill ski and repeats...
Really good for balance in a strong position, vertical and lateral balance, pivoting, edging and movement...which is often needed as students often get 'fixed' in a position after certain drills....
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| spud wrote: |
For those who don't know it, the skier makes two forward and uphill steps across the hill...as the second step is made, the skier balances tall on the uphill ski and steers the ski into the fall line, where they then complete a full arc. At the end of the arc the skier again performs the two strongly balanced steps forward and uphill off the downhill ski and repeats...
Really good for balance in a strong position, vertical and lateral balance, pivoting, edging and movement...which is often needed as students often get 'fixed' in a position after certain drills.... |
We use a variation of that drill which I really like (we call it the Up & Over Drill). Rather than make two upslope steps, we ask the client to make the traverse on their little toe edge of their uphill ski, then flex and extend twice, but stay on the same edge. On the third, extension they also change edge to begin the turn, which is often done entirely on one ski from the moment the edge engages. When it works it's a little big of magic!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| spud wrote: |
For those who don't know it, the skier makes two forward and uphill steps across the hill...as the second step is made, the skier balances tall on the uphill ski and steers the ski into the fall line, where they then complete a full arc. At the end of the arc the skier again performs the two strongly balanced steps forward and uphill off the downhill ski and repeats...
Really good for balance in a strong position, vertical and lateral balance, pivoting, edging and movement...which is often needed as students often get 'fixed' in a position after certain drills.... |
We use a variation of that drill which I really like (we call it the Up & Over Drill). Rather than make two upslope steps, we ask the client to make the traverse on their little toe edge of their uphill ski, then flex and extend twice, but stay on the same edge. On the third, extension they also change edge to begin the turn, which is often done entirely on one ski from the moment the edge engages. When it works it's a little big of magic! |
Sounds cool... I'll have to try that one out  
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Christ! This has got complicated!
Spud, it seems you get me completey. If I just go to tip the skis, I sort of roll into it and feel like I'll topple into the hill. The drill grabbing the ski boot sounds a good one to get my top half away from the slope., but won't my top half be really twisted and doubled over if I go to grab it with both hands? Sorry, I'm a visual learner!!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| shootingmike wrote: |
Christ! This has got complicated!
Spud, it seems you get me completey. If I just go to tip the skis, I sort of roll into it and feel like I'll topple into the hill. The drill grabbing the ski boot sounds a good one to get my top half away from the slope., but won't my top half be really twisted and doubled over if I go to grab it with both hands? Sorry, I'm a visual learner!! |
That's cool...
When you say twisted...your upper body should be facing slightly facing down the fall line, creating separation and angulation at the waist. Your upper body shouldn't be facing across the slope as you lose grip and rotate.
If you are a visual learner...like most, then check out the below article...it explains well and has good diagrams.
A common term is you create a 'reverse C' shape between your feet and shoulders...rather than a straight line into the hill.
In other words get your shoulders up and over your downhill ski more...this creates greater grip.
For visual reference...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| spud wrote: |
| shootingmike wrote: |
Christ! This has got complicated!
Spud, it seems you get me completey. If I just go to tip the skis, I sort of roll into it and feel like I'll topple into the hill. The drill grabbing the ski boot sounds a good one to get my top half away from the slope., but won't my top half be really twisted and doubled over if I go to grab it with both hands? Sorry, I'm a visual learner!! |
That's cool...
When you say twisted...your upper body should be facing slightly facing down the fall line, creating separation and angulation at the waist. Your upper body shouldn't be facing across the slope as you lose grip and rotate.
If you are a visual learner...like most, then check out the below article...it explains well and has good diagrams. As you can over angulate and incline. It's all about finding the right balance.
http://www.paullorenzclinics.com/?_escaped_fragment_=inclination-or-angulation/cu0z
A common term is you create a 'reverse C' shape between your feet and shoulders...rather than a straight line into the hill.
In other words get your shoulders up and over your downhill ski more...this creates greater grip.
For visual reference...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| spud wrote: |
| spud wrote: |
| shootingmike wrote: |
Christ! This has got complicated!
Spud, it seems you get me completey. If I just go to tip the skis, I sort of roll into it and feel like I'll topple into the hill. The drill grabbing the ski boot sounds a good one to get my top half away from the slope., but won't my top half be really twisted and doubled over if I go to grab it with both hands? Sorry, I'm a visual learner!! |
That's cool...
When you say twisted...your upper body should be facing slightly facing down the fall line, creating separation and angulation at the waist. Your upper body shouldn't be facing across the slope as you lose grip and rotate.
If you are a visual learner...like most, then check out the below article...it explains well and has good diagrams. As you can over angulate and incline. It's all about finding the right balance.
http://www.paullorenzclinics.com/?_escaped_fragment_=inclination-or-angulation/cu0z
A common term is you create a 'reverse C' shape between your feet and shoulders...rather than a straight line into the hill.
In other words get your shoulders up and over your downhill ski more...this creates greater grip.
For visual reference...
Can you see by putting both hands on your down hill boot top, it will enhance the position you are looking for...forward and more over...rather than back into the hill.
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"In other words get your shoulders up and over your downhill ski more...this creates greater grip. "
Spud, many thanks again. That makes so much sense and is, in essence, what I was trying to find out. By driving the shoulders forward and across, this will load the downhill ski with pressure, weight or whatever else it's called! Again, I find it bizarre that so much is written about carving yet very little mention of the above. Everything I've read just says tip the skis and bug all about c shapes, shifting the top half etc..
Having now read this thread with much interest, I'm pretty certain my carving isn't bad at all, i just haven't analysed it in such a technical way. I seem to mentally load the downhill ski as I tip them, seemingly applying more and more pressure as the speed / carve increases.
Thanks again.
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that's angulation covered, now how about some inclination.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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waynos, You're a bad man 
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FAQ
