 Poster: A snowHead
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http://news.sky.com/story/1208043/woman-dies-and-eight-in-hospital-after-night-out
Woman Dies And Eight In Hospital After Night Out
10:02am UK, Friday 07 February 2014
A 22-year-old woman has died and eight other Britons were taken to hospital after a night out in a bar at a Bulgarian ski resort.
Nina Holmes, from Gorseinon, Wales, collapsed outside BJ's bar in Borovets, around 45 miles from the capital Sofia.
More follows...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
| Beats me why the Sky posting was devoid of content |
Beats me why anyone would want to take drugs  .....
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
Beats me why anyone would want to take drugs
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ive never skied in Bulgaria either
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| mountainaddict wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Beats me why the Sky posting was devoid of content |
Beats me why anyone would want to take drugs ..... |
My thought exactly, theres only type of snow you shoud be heading out there for. (i'm not speaking ill of those concerned, my heart goes out to their families)
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| mountainaddict wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Beats me why the Sky posting was devoid of content |
Beats me why anyone would want to take drugs ..... |
Not my cup of tea either but each to their own, other people would have a similar view on alchohol, tobacco, fast food, dangerous winter sports etc etc I guess people just take pleasure from different things.
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That could have happened anywhere though, any resort, any city. On saying that borovets is not a resort I would return to.
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Absolutely no sympathy for anyone that buys and takes drugs.
You know the risks.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
You know the risks.
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People know the risks of off piste skiing . doesn't mean that I don't feel sorry for those who come to grief through skiing. Not advocating drug taking but feel sympathy for those who come to grief as a result.
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| T Bar wrote: |
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You know the risks.
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People know the risks of off piste skiing. |
Not really the same though is it?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Corduroy wrote: |
Absolutely no sympathy for anyone that buys and takes drugs.
You know the risks. |
Nina Holmes doesn't really need your sympathy, given that she's dead: her family are probably devastated, though.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| miranda wrote: |
| Corduroy wrote: |
Absolutely no sympathy for anyone that buys and takes drugs.
You know the risks. |
Nina Holmes doesn't really need your sympathy, given that she's dead: her family are probably devastated, though. |
Agree, its terrible for the parents. Doesn't change my opinion drugs and drug takers though.
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| Corduroy wrote: |
| T Bar wrote: |
| Quote: |
You know the risks.
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People know the risks of off piste skiing. |
Not really the same though is it? |
Why is it not the same? People know the risks but do it anyway because they enjoy it. Same same but different. Many more people take illicit drugs than go skiing. Humans have been consuming psycoactive substances for many milenia - long before they thought it might be fun to slide down hills on planks of wood.
It's interesting that you have such a strong opinion on a subject you obviously know very little about. Legalisation, regulation and education would solve many of the problems caused by the drugs trade. These poor people wouldn't have been sold poison for example.
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You know it makes sense.
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Agree that the whole episode is tragic & sympathy goes out to all concerned. However, the 'you know the risks with fast food, alcohol, tobacco (etc)' argument is a bit of a red herring:
- None are illegal.
- None will kill instantly.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Snow Hound, Is loosing your brother and best friend to Heroin enough experience for you? Trust me i know plenty about the whole issue.
However its still personal choice if you choose to buy and consume crap than can possibly kill you and i have no sympathy for those that do not learn from the mistakes and losses of others.
These 'poor people' had a choice and they have to live (or not) with it.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| mountainaddict wrote: |
Agree that the whole episode is tragic & sympathy goes out to all concerned. However, the 'you know the risks with fast food, alcohol, tobacco (etc)' argument is a bit of a red herring:
- None are illegal.
- None will kill instantly. |
Nonsense. Alcohol is very able to kill instantly. And illegality is likely the problem, not the solution.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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...though reading Corduroy's sad cross-post, for sure there is a certain class of drugs that I can't see any value in being legal. The problem when discussing this subject is that people tend to group all drugs together, which is indeed nonsense.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| mountainaddict wrote: |
Agree that the whole episode is tragic & sympathy goes out to all concerned. However, the 'you know the risks with fast food, alcohol, tobacco (etc)' argument is a bit of a red herring:
- None are illegal.
- None will kill instantly. |
At various times in many different countries' history alcohol was illegal likewise most currently illegal drugs were at one time legal. The present is just a snapshot in time and in the future no doubt things will be different just like in the past. Make no doubt about it alcohol is one of the most harmful drugs out there legal or not and it can and does kill instantly (choking to death, accidents etc).
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Actually, few people "know the risk".
Everything has a risk.
Understanding the risk is the tricky bit. (try this article.)
Many people are anxious about anaesthesia and surgery, but have no concern about driving to the hospital.
A complete misunderstanding of the risk.
Most people understand there are risks to "taking drugs" (or skiing, or cycling, or unprotected sex)
But the degree of that risk is rarely appreciated.
The big risk with illegal drugs is that you don't really know what you are buying - it is estimate that you only have a 14% chance of actually getting ecstasy when you buy on the street.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Heroin is a different kettle of fish from (what I presume are) the adulterated pills this girl and her friend had the misfortune to take. MDMA (ecstasy) is non-addictive and as close to a harmless substance as you can get (much less likely to kill a person picked at random than a peanut is, for example). The lapse of judgement isn't in choosing to take ecstasy, it's in buying it from a non-trustworthy source. If you're a British tourist in Bulgaria then I would count pretty much anyone as a non-trustworthy source. So yes these people were stupid and have paid a very heavy price, but I don't have a negative opinion of them for "taking drugs" (which covers such a huge range of human activity, from the deadly to the harmless, that it is a meaningless term). I have a far lower opinion of people who abuse alcohol.
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Vinerower- i am slightly concerned that you think buying ecstasy from a trustworthy dealer is indeed okay and the only problem here is buying from a dodgy eastern european. Also to suggest mdma is close to harmless is ridiculous and whilst there are more deaths from heroin both are class A drugs which you have to buy illegally from criminals. need i say more
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It was cocaine, or so they thought, not ecstasy.
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| Quote: |
| ..the 'you know the risks with fast food, alcohol, tobacco (etc)' argument is a bit of a red herring: - None are illegal. - None will kill instantly. |
Your rebuttal misses the point of the argument. Occasionally illegal alcohol does kill people instantly, precisely because it does not benefit from the checks and balances of legality. Legal tobacco is the major cause of avoidable death in the UK; if you've seen serious COPD you may actually prefer a quick death.
Prohibitionists try to suggest that they have the interests of users of things which they themselves do not use at heart. That's hypocritical, arrogant and evangelical, but in any case the evidence shows it doesn't work.
My sympathy for people killed by booze/ drugs/ mountains / cars is always precisely the same. I do not share the "moral conviction" of those who think one kind of death is somehow more deserving than another. It's hypocritical bollocks.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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philwig, +1. Whether or not you would assume the risks of taking drugs, it's callous to needlessly post that you 'have no sympathy' when someone has died. If you want to have no sympathy, then keep it to yourself.
Far more danger is created from prohibition than the drugs themselves, the latest wave of (frequently legal) research chemicals are often far more dangerous than the drugs they mimic. Anyone with half a brain should be able to understand that illegal doesn't necessarily equal unsafe, and legal definitely doesn't mean safe.
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| Quote: |
Far more danger is created from prohibition than the drugs themselves, the latest wave of (frequently legal) research chemicals are often far more dangerous than the drugs they mimic. Anyone with half a brain should be able to understand that illegal doesn't necessarily equal unsafe, and legal definitely doesn't mean safe.
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+1 and there's a lot of self-delusion amongst people whose favourite "high" is alcohol, who can barely live a few days without it, and who simply ignore clear evidence of how damaging it is.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| jammer wrote: |
| Anyone with half a brain should be able to understand that illegal doesn't necessarily equal unsafe, and legal definitely doesn't mean safe. |
Totally agree but there are a vast number of people with less than half a brain who do equate Legal to Safe and for that reason alone legalisation should never happen.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| mikeelsa wrote: |
| Vinerower- i am slightly concerned that you think buying ecstasy from a trustworthy dealer is indeed okay and the only problem here is buying from a dodgy eastern european. Also to suggest mdma is close to harmless is ridiculous and whilst there are more deaths from heroin both are class A drugs which you have to buy illegally from criminals. need i say more |
Taken from the Mail Online website of all places:
They know that one-off bad reactions from a single Ecstasy pill are still exceedingly rare, that it's nearly always mismanagement (heatstroke as in the case of the recent London fatalities or excessive water intake in the case of Leah Betts) that's to blame.
The truth is, they're right: after 15 years, the number of deaths from this drug is still in the order of dozens rather than hundreds. Our perceptions are skewed by the huge shock-horror headlines accorded to every Ecstasy death, whereas the much higher numbers of young people killed in car accidents or by cancer or even glue sniffing (75 young people compared to eight per year) rarely merit a mention.
'If you asked members of the public how many old grannies are burgled every year, they would also be way out," says Cara Macdowall, communications officer for Drugscope, the new government-funded centre of expertise on drugs.
By current estimates, around a million pills are being swallowed every weekend, which makes the risk of dying from a single Ecstasy tablet even smaller than being struck by lightning or perhaps, winning a substantial prize on the lottery. Savvy ecstasy users know this.
'There's been a big misinformation campaign about Ecstasy," says Caroline Noortman, founder of London Lecture Group, provides drug information for young people and their parents.
'Young people have been told that they stand a good chance of dying if they take so much as one Ecstasy pill and then they look at the sheer numbers of people they know who have used the drug repeatedly without apparent harm and they know that's a myth.
'They know they've actually got a very remote chance of dying. This makes them disinclined to pay attention to anything else that is said.'
'Media campaigns focusing on deaths from use of Ecstasy are worse than useless,' commented John Merill, consultant in drugs dependence at Drugs North West in Manchester, in a letter to the British Medical Journal at the height of the Leah Betts campaign.
'They no more deter young people from taking Ecstasy than reports of deaths in an avalanche stop me from taking skiing holidays.'
From the point of view of the teenager, the risk is worth it.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-68418/The-truth-Ecstasy.html#ixzz2sqAZR12p
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Snowhound- now that i have read that i think we should all take ecstacy and jump about the place waving our hands in the air. They are an illegal drug for a reason but i see from an earlier post you are all for legalisation of drugs. I can see the world now, what a wonderful place it would be with people coked out their head or smacked out their nut wandering down the shops for the morning papers. Brilliant.
There is no place in society for illegal drugs or in fact for some of the legal highs on the market.
Ecstacy may not cause the death toll of other drugs but i am sure the parents of those who have lost their lives would disagree with everything you write.
It is very sad that this person has lost their life and my thoughts go out to her family.
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You know it makes sense.
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| mikeelsa wrote: |
Snowhound- now that i have read that i think we should all take ecstacy and jump about the place waving our hands in the air. They are an illegal drug for a reason but i see from an earlier post you are all for legalisation of drugs. I can see the world now, what a wonderful place it would be with people coked out their head or smacked out their nut wandering down the shops for the morning papers. Brilliant.
There is no place in society for illegal drugs or in fact for some of the legal highs on the market.
Ecstacy may not cause the death toll of other drugs but i am sure the parents of those who have lost their lives would disagree with everything you write.
It is very sad that this person has lost their life and my thoughts go out to her family. |
Seriously, the worst case scenario you can imagine is people buying papers whilst on drugs? I'm sure that already happens quite a lot. Honestly I think the world probably would be a better place if more people took MDMA rather than drank alcohol. You say that it's illegal for a reason, what reason would that be?
Illegal drugs have their place in society whether you like it or not, the current drug laws don't help addicts, and make it more dangerous for normal users, they'll eventually be reformed.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| mikeelsa wrote: |
Snowhound- now that i have read that i think we should all take ecstacy and jump about the place waving our hands in the air. They are an illegal drug for a reason but i see from an earlier post you are all for legalisation of drugs. I can see the world now, what a wonderful place it would be with people coked out their head or smacked out their nut wandering down the shops for the morning papers. Brilliant.
There is no place in society for illegal drugs or in fact for some of the legal highs on the market.
Ecstacy may not cause the death toll of other drugs but i am sure the parents of those who have lost their lives would disagree with everything you write.
It is very sad that this person has lost their life and my thoughts go out to her family. |
Im guessing from this that even if drugs were legalised you wouldn't take them.
You might assume that most other people wouldn't suddenly turn into raging addicts either.
However it would be a lot safer for people who do take drugs (cleaner), and taxing them would allow society to cover the costs while ending all the other criminality that goes along with dealers.
Keeping them illegal quite clearly doesn't make a jot of difference to supply and demand; all it does is put money in the hands of criminals.
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Poster: A snowHead
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clarky999, amen.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It's important that we can have mature discussions about this subject. It appears to me though that those on the pro reform side have a deep knowledge of the facts and those on the anti are going with an albeit understandable gut reaction.
The only way prohibition would truly succeed would be to ban alcohol, tobacco, caffeine etc. and make it impossible for anyone anywhere to produce, supply or consume any form or psycoactive substance whatsoever. This scenario would suit me just fine. I hardly ever drink, haven't smoked in 10 years, could easily forgo my morning cup of coffee and find drugs and those that take them pretty boring and sad. My only vice these days is snow (the cold kind).
Cocain and heroin in moderate doses do not kill people. Overdoses kill people and addiction ruins lives by drawing people into a seedy underworld populated by nefarious characters with the stigma and illegality making it difficult for them to ask for help.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Death through drug addiction is a tiny problem compared to Alcohol abuse/addiction.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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This is a very tricky subject, and often quickly raises emotions and drives out sensible thinking.
In the UK we accept two dangerous drugs: Tobacco and Alcohol.
The origins of this go way back into history.
Tobacco was not always seen as acceptable: see James 1st wonderful rant. (especially the last sentence),
Tobacco cigarettes are now well known to be a serious health hazard, but we continue to allow their use.
Alcohol is no less a problem
George Best, Paul Gasgoigne, and recent events at Belfast's Odyssey Arena publicise that alcohol can cause serious harm.
In 1920, America started an experiment on the effects of Prohibition.
Most authorities agree that there was a reduction in alcohol consumption, but there was also a surge in organised crime.
"theft and burglaries increased by 9 percent, homicides by 12.7 percent, assaults and battery rose by 13 percent, drug addiction by 44.6 percent, and police department costs rose by 11.4 percent."
With the drug sent underground: illicit manufacture flourished with many people poisoned by poor quality product.
The law was repealed in 1933.
Unfortunately the gangs moved on to new markets: recreational drugs and prostitution.
These days the dividing line between Crime and Business is sometimes fuzzy.
In the Feb 1st edition of the British Medical Journal there is an article by Simon Chapman titled "When will the tobacco industry apologise for its harms?".
In paragraph 4 you will read that in Myanmar (Burma) "sales promotion staff for foreign brands (are) openly handing out free cigarettes to children".
As every "Pusher" knows: catch them young, and you've got them for life.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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There are some people on here posting solid, sensible thoughts.
The 'its illegal' argument is an extremely naive one Corduroy, for reasons other posters have articulated better than I can.
Corduroy do you feel sorry for people who die from drinking dodgy bootleg alcohol/ethanol sold as vodka?
I know this was cocain not MDMA, but while people are talking about MDMA it is, in fact, government policy and prohibition that has CAUSED the recent high-profile 'MDMA' deaths in the UK. Several years ago one of the components of MDMA was put on the terrorism watch list of something, making it exceedingly hard to get hold of actual MDMA. PMA is being sold as MDMA, and it has a lower toxicity level and its effects are felt at higher doses, and this combination is fatal.
Loads of news stories e.g.:
http://www.theguardian.com/science/sifting-the-evidence/2013/oct/07/pma-ecstasy-club-drug-deaths-mdma
Mainly dealers aren't actually out to kill their clients, and a lot of the 'crushed up glass sold as coke' stories are urban myths or extremely isolated.
The world would be a better place if you could go to a government shop and purchase drugs of a certain quality. If you had to go to some starkly lit government shop, and show ID or something it would remove any idea of it being 'cool' to take illegal drugs, the supply could be taken out of the hands of criminals and tax revenue generated and it would make it safer for those who make the informed decision to take them. Winner winner chicken dinner.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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kat.ryb - I would have every sympathy for anyone sold alcohol legally that went on to kill them because it wasn't what it said on the tin. However Should they choose to purchase counterfeit alcohol then no.
We are where we are with alcohol, there is no closing of that door. But what we should learn from is the destruction that it brings. Yes it kills people and yes it ruins lives through addiction so we need to bear that in mind when considering legalising any other substances. If we don't future generations are just going to look back and ask what the hell we were thinking.
Leaglizing will give credibility to drug taking and encourage experimentation which in turn will see a rise in addicts.
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| Corduroy wrote: |
| Leaglizing will give credibility to drug taking and encourage experimentation which in turn will see a rise in addicts. |
From the places that have done it, there's no evidence that happens.
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| Corduroy wrote: |
kat.ryb - I would have every sympathy for anyone sold alcohol legally that went on to kill them because it wasn't what it said on the tin. However Should they choose to purchase counterfeit alcohol then no.
We are where we are with alcohol, there is no closing of that door. But what we should learn from is the destruction that it brings. Yes it kills people and yes it ruins lives through addiction so we need to bear that in mind when considering legalising any other substances. If we don't future generations are just going to look back and ask what the hell we were thinking.
Leaglizing will give credibility to drug taking and encourage experimentation which in turn will see a rise in addicts. |
But not all drugs are addictive and not all drugs affect people the way alcohol does. You have to compare like with like as far as you can.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Winner winner chicken dinner.
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It's not a vote winner though and therein lies the reason our leaders will continue to ignore the advice of those they appoint to advise on such matters.
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Don't forget the influence of the booze lobby, which is extremely powerful in this country and I'm sure it is elsewhere in Europe too. The drink industry soiled its pants in the 1980s when this young people suddenly stopped drinking alcohol and vowed never to let any substance compete with its product again. What is legal and what is illegal is to a very large extent about politics and lobbying, not the welfare of the public.
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