Ski schools asking for payment in advance..

A snowHead

Has anyone else noticed the trend for ski schools to ask for payment at the time of booking? Even worse, they demand upfront payment way in advance then have T&Cs which say they have the right to cancel/not run the course/change to a more expensive option and do not offer any refunds (only credit towards another course). To my mind the refund part is inequitable and for sure they would legally have to refund if they chose not to run a course, simple consumer law pretty much right across Europe would apply. BUT how likely are visitors from another country to be able/motivated to enforce their rights in this regard....

Just thought this was an interesting change, all previous holidays I have just paid the night before in the office. This year, 2 different schools have asked for payment at time of booking.

A snowHead

zikomo, Always paid in advance.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Probably reduces the risk of them not being able to run the course due to people booking and not turning up!
I've no problem with this, if I want to be sure there will be place for me or the kids then I expect to have to pay to secure it.

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I think things have been tight for a lot of ski related business in recent years, including ski schools. It makes good business sense to get payment in advance to ensure the revenue is there if you're going to provide adequate staffing levels on an almost on-demand basis.

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Don't get me wrong, I have no problem paying in advance (for all the reasons mentioned by other posters). It's the fact that 2 schools have changed their approach this year, and that they both state they can take the money and then choose what service (or not) to provide that bothers me. Frankly I don't understand why they don't have a hotel booking like system where bookings are guaranteed by credit card but no payment made until the service is received. There is a real risk that you pay the money, they cancel the course (maybe not enough participants) then force you to take private lessons rather than refunding the payment.

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zikomo, Ask them if they want your business or not? If they do, then get them to acknowledge that that is what they will provide. If not, then go elsewhere.

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zikomo, I had a lesson with New Gen recently & as a British registered company, payment had to be paid in advance in £s at time of booking. Today I paid in euros for a lesson I had with ESF last Saturday.

After all it is free

I've always paid in full at the time of booking, for some years now, and with a range of ski schools.

I don't mind paying in advance but it's a bit of a pain how some smaller schools don't have any online payment facility. I was asked to email a PDF containing my credit card details (!) but instead I did an international bank transfer. It's not at all safe to send credit card details unencrypted. It cost extra to do a bank transfer and was a real pain, as my online banking didn't do it properly and I had to ring the bank. Total hassle. I wish they had had Paypal or similar.

I've never been unlucky enough to have lessons totally cancelled. If the worst came to the worst, I imagine if you were out for a week any school would be able to schedule *something*. Unless the weather was truly awful every day I guess.

I've even seen T&Cs that say something along the lines of 'if you state your ability level totally incorrectly and aren't able to join the group you're booked for we will arrange something else for you.' This seems very generous! It's surely your responsibility to state your level honestly.

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Maireadoconnor, use caxtonfx to do international money transfers for no fee

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From the point of view of a ski school (albeit on a dry slope in the UK). 2 or 3 years ago we only took payment in advance for courses, not individual lessons. If you are running a course and people who have booked don't turn up, you risk not having enough people to make the course viable, and you could have turned other people away from the course thinking it was going to be full. If a course doesn't get the minimum number of people booked on it, we usually shorten the course, but we will always refund the money if that's what people want.
Now we take payment in advance for all lessons; as Feef mentioned, things are tight at the moment, bookings are down, and with a limited season you can't afford to have instructors there for lessons that don't show. To be honest, most people used to be quite surprised we didn't want payment in advance.

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I had group lessons booked with BASS in VDI last year, paid in advance. Got a call the day I arrived, lessons due to start Monday, to say that I was the only one on the course and they offered me a number of hours of private tuition instead of the group lessons.

They could quite easily have cancelled and left me with nothing, can't remember their T&C's off the top of my head though, but didn't and I was really pleased with the outcome.

Can you imagine how many people would book lessons then not turn up for whatever reason if they hadn't paid? As karin, says, times are hard and even in the busy European resorts, you'd have instructors booked with nobody to teach!

You know it makes sense.

Well we ask for card details at time of booking which are then held on an encrypted system..... a no show for the lesson - we charge; cancellation at short notice (think it is 48 hours) - we charge..... otherwise people are free to say at time of booking 'ill give cash to the instructor on the day'. Problem is that time is money so when a slot is booked by someone then we are often turning other enquiries away..... there is only 9-4pm available to book per instructor x 5 months (minus few days here and there for illness etc) so time is the key! As far as group lessons is concerned then if someone is the first to book on then the office will say so - people are then advised that they could be on their own..... likewise lots of people and the group gets close to being full the office advise.

Peak season we are often fully booked 6,9 or 12 months in advance - for example I am already fully booked for half term 2016 (yes that is 2016!!!!) but low season everything is much more fluid and the office is trying to juggle lots of requests etc all at the same time.

Another thing that often happens is reaction to snow - people could book months in advance - then it gets close to the holiday date - snow does not look good for example and then they call up and want to cancel.... that leaves others that still want to do the sessions exposed........ vice-a-versa we get a SUDDEN dump of snow and enquiries go through the roof - someone is not 'committed' to their slot by providing card details in advance means we may have to turn people away that are keen to do the sessions.

Actually charging in advance using the card held on file only becomes the norm if someone ticks that box when they book.

As an instructor I can assure you we have people daily calling the office and saying things like (no joking in any case I can assure you): 'Its too sunny / cloudy / warm / cold / too much snow / not enough snow / too bumpy / not enough bumps / not enough powder / too dangerous / too windy etc etc for a lesson.... ANYONE can LEARN pretty much anything about skiing / snowboarding no matter what the conditions on any run - schools are not in charge of the weather and we will always go out unless 1) - EVERYTHING is closed because of high winds or 2) avalanche risk is 4/5 out of 5 and either the lifts are closed due to avalanche risk or alternatively if an off piste session the coach / instructor does not wish to make calls when the risk is so high (in which case a full refund is given)!

I have had instances in the past when repeat bookers have called at the last minute to say things like 'little johnny is ill - can we re-arrange' - if possible and there are no other bookings or whatever then of course I will try and help re-arrange for another time (not that there are usually many options for re-arranging as a school we are normally about 90% full) but failing all that a letter to the insurance company will see you get a refund!

I think most reputable schools are fair and reasonable wherever possible with people and a little commitment through a card number provided in advance is the least they can ask for. Of course there are exceptions and mistakes / mix - ups do happen!

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I always pay up front for Ferry tickets, Lift passes, Golf club membership, etc etc so why not ski school?

A snowHead

A snowHead

To be clear to all, I totally agree with upfront payment, it means both I and the school are clear on what has been booked and are committed to it. There are clear benefits to both sides so it is best for all. Failing that, credit card details could be held as Steve Angus does, and cancellations/no shows charged - which would be completely fair of the school to do.

The issue for me is that the schools (at least the ones I have booked with) reserved the right to cancel/change the service but will not refund the payment. I have written to then specifically on this point, also stating that I believe the T&Cs breach consumer protection laws. I suspect they have changed their policy (i.e. they did not demand payment upfront in the past), but overlooked updating T&Cs. Will see what they come back with.

It has happened to me. When my brother was out of work we took him on ski holiday with us and booked a beginner course with a reputable school in resort (one our kids had used several times with excellent results). On arrival in the office the day before the course was due to start, we were informed that there were not enough participants for the course to run. The school offered private tuition instead, at full rates, therefore much more expensive (and frankly not what we wanted). We refused and the school were less than happy that we took our business elsewhere, but as we had not paid anything it made sense for us to do so.

I just wondered if anyone has noticed the same, or indeed has had a problem as a result. Looks like Jocrad had a "problem" which fortunately was resolved to his complete satisfaction....

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I've no issue with upfront payment but would have an issue with we can't offer what we've taken payment for, but we arent giving you a refund. In any of the situations Steve describes I think it is fair there is no refund

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I fear some people are getting bogged down in legal T&Cs and losing sight of what actually happens in resort. I have never known a ski school refuse to refund money if they have been unable to offer a course - e.g. if a group course has too few participants. Generally they will offer some private lessons instead; the guest still receives tuition and the instructor gets to work, but no school will replace a week of group lessons with a week of private lessons for the same price.

I have also known ski schools to work together in low season, so that for example one school runs beginner groups and another runs intermediate groups. They refer guests to each other, ensuring that guests get what they want and the groups are viable.

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While I agree with Steve Angus on all the situations he describes, TDC do take payment 7 days in advance so there is no risk of a "no show" not being chargable. This is from the TDC website

"In order to confirm a booking we will require a credit card number. We will hold this number as a security. Full payment will be taken from your card 7 days before the first date of your booking. If for any reason a booking is cancelled, then if that cancellation is more than 7 days prior to the booking date, no payment will be taken from your credit card. If cancellation is within 7 days of a booking, then we will endeavour to resell the session. If we can resell the space a full refund will be made to the card. If we cannot resell the space then no refund will be made and the full payment will be retained.

In order to confirm your TDC booking please enter your credit card details below."

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Holidayloverxx - that seems fair and sensible, assuming that if THEY cancel then you get a refund.

quiton - I outlined an example above, so it does happen. I don't really understand why you would be happy paying for one thing and getting something completely different, but if you are then fair enough. I am not. If I pay for a particular service and the provider cancels, I expect to be offered an alternative (say private tuition) OR a refund (my choice). This is what would happen in any other circumstance - e.g. flight cancellations etc.

After all it is free

zikomo, Yes, I agree. There is nothing in TDC's terms and conditions on the subject of their cancelling.

BTW I LOVE TDC!

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[quote="quinton"] no school will replace a week of group lessons with a week of private lessons for the same price.

Exactly, instead of 3 x 2 hours group lesson, BASS offered me 2 x 2 hour private, which was a good deal as far as I was concerned.

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[quote="jocrad"]

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.... yea officially money is taken 7 days in advance but often it is much closer to the time but again if someone says - 'please don't charge me until XYZ' then the office will usually comply...... If there is a danger that a group may not run / is in danger of not having enough people to run its full length then the office usually tell clients in advance - say several days in advance but as I said sometimes (as happened to a group I was running 3 weeks ago) the group can be in danger of being a virtual non starter on the Saturday morning and then by the Monday am it is full up..... how far in advance do you make a call to cancel a group? Again giving people the heads up in advance is the way forward so at least people are prepared for the possibility! We would never take a 'you booked a 3x3 hour clinic but there is not enough people to run it so tough you are getting 1 x 3 hour private instead' approach..... the office would advise as early as reasonably possible so people could consider there options and offer a full refund if necessary. On the flip side what we often have as a school is lets say 3 different levels of clinics running in one week and lets say 2 of the groups are on the maximum of 6 in the group and one group has say 2 people in it - in that case all three groups would 'even' themselves out financially and all would run in their entirety...... even more so the case if there are siblings / relations in differing groups.

Saying all that I used to work (without naming names) in a school where such sensible and customer focused policies were not common place! That was many years ago!

As quinton said above:

The school did speak to me Steve Angus, and zikomo, I was happy with the offer and took them up, so the question of whether I would refunded and when never arose.

You know it makes sense.

I'd be very unhappy with the "credit only" approach. It feels like it should be part of the ski school's business risk - if they offer a group and take the cashflow benefit it's their job to market it properly to fill it not cancel it at late notice if it's a loss maker. Kinda like punters taking the risk on sucky weather with a multi day lift pass. Smacks of some of the issues that the ski instruction industry has generally with mixing inappropriate ability levels in the same class, lack of "drop-in" group lessons for higher ability levels etc etc. N American ski schools seem to be much more customer focused with these issues, but different market dynamics rule there.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

Always paid in advance for a number of years with different schools

A snowHead

Seems something essential is missing though.

If you're going at a busy time, there's the risk you won't get a slot in the lesson. So you book ahead and pay in advance. Chances of the class not happening due to low sign up should be minimal.

If, however, you're going at low season, why not just call up 2 days in advacen and ask if a class is likely to be form? That way, there's no risk for it not to happen.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Never not paid in advance, would prefer to anyway as it kind of guarantees that the lesson will happen.

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Where I work all private lessons are paid in advance, so the school can cover the instructor's pay if the client decides not to show up. Our private lessons are either 3 hours or 6.5 hours and for a no show we wait until the last half hour of the lesson before assuming the client isn't coming, so there is no way of booking another lesson, but at least while we are waiting we're getting paid. Cancellation policy is full refund if cancelled at least 24 hours in advance. Group lessons aren't booked, you buy a ticket and show up 10 minutes before the start of the class and an instructor is then assigned to the class. If there's less than 3 people the class is usually shorter, but will be given, and it's stated in the T&Cs.

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

First time booking lessons this year and had a nice dialogue with the guys at the resort and was politely directed to their website once we'd worked out what to go for. Did the booking, paid in full as I'd expected.

Sat in Dubai airport as I type, with an hours wait until out flight to Vienna/Innsbruck Smile

Help!!

Ski schools asking for payment in advance..

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