 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The general rule (irrespective if you are on skis or climbing) is that you give way to parties who are lower down, or ascending, the mountain.
So in this case the skiers are in the wrong. When skiing gullies in Scotland the general rule is that you wait for any parties below to top out or exit the gully before starting a descent.
However : It could be argued that both groups are irresponsible for being in an avalanche prone couloir in the first place 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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And also an incredibly popular and very easily accessible intro to steeper skiing...
Around Chamonix you can expect this to happen on any slope that has good access or is in powdery or good snow conditions.
PS Not that I condone what the skiers did...
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If the skiers did as described and deliberately bought down the cornice despite knowing that the climbers were below them, they were lucky not to have killed one or more people and thus lucky not to be held by the police
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Idle curiosity: Do winter climbers tend to carry avi gear like the off-piste skiers do?
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| D G Orf wrote: |
| If the skiers did as described and deliberately bought down the cornice despite knowing that the climbers were below them, they were lucky not to have killed one or more people and thus lucky not to be held by the police |
I'm not sure what there was to suggest they did it deliberately...? They might have been knocking bits of ice off just by tarting around at the top?
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Megamum, not normally and it's pretty hotly contested whenever anyone suggests they should. Typically they do expose themselves a little less than skiers to avalanche prone slopes but quite often the approach to a climb will cross at least some avi terrain.
Glenmore Lodge a training center in Scotland is running a study just now where they equip all winter parties with avalanche gear.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| Idle curiosity: Do winter climbers tend to carry avi gear like the off-piste skiers do? |
Not usually, though they could certainly benefit from them. I've got the Scottish avalanche book ("chance in a million", I think it is called) and a number of the avalanches detailed in there were triggered by climbers, not skiiers.
| finestgreen wrote: |
| I'm not sure what there was to suggest they did it deliberately...? They might have been knocking bits of ice off just by tarting around at the top? |
Er, they were standing on the cornice, within sight of some climbers below them. That's a bit irresponsible, to say the least.
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from the details it sounds as though the skiers were not respecting mountains / others...
but... that original post seems to imply that the skiers were also at fault because their intent was a photo shoot - definitely a feeling of we had priority because we were doing serious stuff and they weren't and that attitude is not right - the mountains do not belong to anyone... ultimately all mountain users need to protect themselves, but also be aware of others - it is dangerous out there!
Alasdair
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| offpisteskiing wrote: |
And also an incredibly popular and very easily accessible intro to steeper skiing...
Around Chamonix you can expect this to happen on any slope that has good access or is in powdery or good snow conditions.
PS Not that I condone what the skiers did... |
Isn't this a bit like the debate of car vs bike? If you insist on biking in very busy road, it's only a matter of time before ONE bad driver to ruin your day!
Climbing up a route that's frequently used by skiers, chances are there might be skiers getting down. As the climber who post the original thread admitted, they have an hour left in their climb. So it's unrealistc to expect the skiers to wait that long. What do they expect the skiers do? Was there even an option for the skiers to turn around?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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What were they doing climbing the Chevalier Couloir in the first place? It is one of the few that is regularly skied and accessed from the top.
You can't see the bottom from the top when you ski it.
It is normal to knock as much of the cornice off as possible before skiing a couloir to keep yourself safe.
You assume no one is STUPID enough to climb a regularly skied route! If the party needed training ground there is endless choices, if they fancied a challange, next one to climbers left is not easily (you have to climb not just skin/bootpack) to get to it from above.
Once you are in (skiing) you don't have the option to turn around and go back up (unless you have a lot of gear with you than is not necessary when skiing the Chevalier).
Have any of you replying to this skied or for that matter climbed the Chevalier? ( I think Haggis and OPS may have)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Idris, yes, several times...
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^ never skied Chevalier : but would love to get the chance
Would agree with Idris that there must be lots of better places to climb an easy snow gully in Chamonix ?
Or to phrase it another way : if you ride your bike on a fast road then don't be surprised if the traffic makes your life unpleasant ?
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You know it makes sense.
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Bunch of areshole climbers blocking out a couloir for half a day, how typical.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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pjski ... do you ski couloirs ?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Haggis_Trap, looking through the interwebs it seems skiers climb it as well to avoid the top portion. Either way in a high traffic area chopping down cornices on the assumption that there is no one below is a touch irresponsible. I've done it here to test slope stability but the chances of there being someone else on the same mountain are remote.
My own experiences of interacting with climbers have mostly been in the Northern Corries which is obviously a highly trafficked climbing area where the skiing is nearly always accessed from above. It's always been civil with both parties doing the best to make sure everyone is safe.
Just as there are plenty of couloirs to climb there are plenty to ski and neither group has a claim over the other. I can see why the original poster was pissed given that they dropped part of a cornice and sluffed/avalanched them! Could have been a lot more costly than lost/broken gear and a decent tumble for the lead climber.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Idris wrote: |
What were they doing climbing the Chevalier Couloir in the first place? It is one of the few that is regularly skied and accessed from the top.
You can't see the bottom from the top when you ski it.
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From the OP:
| Quote: |
| We had talked about the climb with two mountain guides on Monday and Tuesday and they both told us that they thought the couloir would be in good conditions even though it had been snowing heavily on Sunday. One of them took a client up the couloir Tuesday |
To me it appears that the OP was responsible in seeking, and acting on advice of qualified guides in choosing their route. I've neither skied or climbed the route but it seems to me that if anyone should be blamed it should be the guides, if nothing else than for not advising the climbers that they may be skied upon.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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On the rocks, agreed - plenty of other routes to recommend where a bunch of skiers dropping in is much less likely...
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| limegreen1 wrote: |
| pjski ... do you ski couloirs ? |
Yes.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Yeah, tough call: is it sensible to kick a cornice down onto people below you?
Skiers or climbers, that's irrelevant. It's clearly at best thoughtless. But it is the alps, you have to expect tourists to try to kill you. Just like on those busy roads I cycle on.
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While the OP mentions shouting at the skiers he never mentions getting a response. Everything said is consistent with the skiers not seeing the climbers until they were in the couloir.
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Can't help thinking we are only hearing one side of the story. The climbers claim they were clearly visible and seen by the skiers but did the skiers really see them? What did they see, hands and feet bashing the cornice or did they make eye contact? No mention of it if they did. The climbers say they they must have been heard, through helmets and hoods? While the skiers were chatting to each other about the plans? While the wind was blowing? With all the pole whacking going on?
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I think that's easily the most likely explanation.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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davkt, despite all that, if I was going to ski a couloir popular with climbers (even if they are inexperienced) I think I'd have the courtesy to at least look to see if there was anyone below before collapsing the cornice.
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galpinos, Yes I agree, its just some things in tale being told on the climbing site don't quite add up. Wouldn't like to say which side (or both) were at fault from the available information!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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davkt, If I'd watched someone knock a cornice down onto my firends and me, causing us all to be avalanched and my friend take a leader fall I imagine my account would be somewhat biased too!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I googled off piste Chevalier and ended up in this thread. There are some questions, that I can answer, but I am only able to tell one side of the story.
We had climbed half way up the coloir when we saw the skiers on the top. When I say that they knocked ice of the cornice I dont mean that they did it on purpose, but that will inevitably happen if you are not careful on a cornice. We shouted and waved at them to get them to move - and we had contact. They shouted back and wanted us to move!! We actually tried to move to the right side of the coloir, but it was sparse with good protection and the snow was very soft, so it was almost impossible to climb there. Returning down was not an option, that would have taken even longer time than to climb the rest of the way up. We did not feel safe with all the ice coming down and skiers getting ready to come down. In my opinion the coloir is simply too narrow to be climbed up and skied down at the same time. We did try to look for a spot to group together, so that the skiers could come down, but we could not find a good spot.
We had spoken to to experienced alpinist who suggested this route. Afterwards we met two guides who we asked about this route. Nobody mentioned anything about skiers here. Neither did our guide book nor summitpost.org, which I normally use for checking routes. The previous day we had climbed the mountain from the other side and there were no skiers heading for the coloir. You can argue that it is bad research, that we did not expect to meet skiers there.
I thought that the rule was to give room for parties below, no matter if they are skiers or climbers. In this case I definitely think that the skiers should have moved back when they saw that there were climbers coming up.
I still have a bad feeling that they were making an important photo shoot which they mentioned a couple of times. It is definitely not ok to jeopardize other peoples life because you have a photo shoot, that you think is important.
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| Quote: |
shouted and waved at them to get them to move - and we had contact. They shouted back and wanted us to move!!
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Fair enough - stand corrected.
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You know it makes sense.
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reading you report ... you say only two of them did skied down, the others obviously didnt. IMV the two skiers who came down ...to ski the couloir , not to see if you were ok, and go on about a photoshoot are a pair of wa***rs
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rukkan, Thanks for clarfying.
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Poster: A snowHead
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meh, Serriadh, thank you for answering my question, I just remembered it  I'm surprised that it isn't as 'signed up' for with the same zeal as off-piste skiers. I think I remember several incidents last season where there were reports of climbing/snow accidents even in Scotland, let alone the alps, I can't see that the wearing of a transceiver at least would do any harm and might possibly be of benefit. Mind you that's just an idle thought as I don't climb and don't understand the facts. It was just that the report in the OP suggests that the climbers were close to being swept away in an avalanche in the same way as skiers sometimes are, and it just led to the thought that they could be found by similar mechanisms. Anyhow, it isn't that important, and thank you for the answer.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rukkan wrote: |
| I googled off piste Chevalier and ended up in this thread. There are some questions, that I can answer, but I am only able to tell one side of the story. |
How steep in degrees was it?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Idris,
I know you are a chamonix resident. Are you a climber as well as a skier? You're comments seemed a bit harsh and one-sided. The guy who made the report says he actually consulted a couple of guides before doing the route and one of them had climbed it with clients recently - doesn't seem like it was that ridiculous a route to be climbing? I imagine it would be pretty frustrating to find a party climbing in the couloir you were planning to ski but ultimately the other parties safety has to take priority over your plans doesn't it?
I think it beggars belief that someone would trigger an avalanche that resulted in a leader falling then just ski past. Amazing...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| jedster wrote: |
Idris,
I know you are a chamonix resident. Are you a climber as well as a skier? You're comments seemed a bit harsh and one-sided. The guy who made the report says he actually consulted a couple of guides before doing the route and one of them had climbed it with clients recently - doesn't seem like it was that ridiculous a route to be climbing? I imagine it would be pretty frustrating to find a party climbing in the couloir you were planning to ski but ultimately the other parties safety has to take priority over your plans doesn't it?
I think it beggars belief that someone would trigger an avalanche that resulted in a leader falling then just ski past. Amazing... |
What beggars belief just as much is that people would get all the gear out to 'climb' a couloir that can be walked up in a pair of ski boots.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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PJSki, er the Chevalier is popular because you don't have to climb up it first. if you have climbed it in yer ski boots without protection, well done you
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That looks quite steep, to be climbing without protection!
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PJSki, they're climbing in/down not out/up 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| PJSki, they're climbing in/down not out/up |
You can do either.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Mon 3-02-14 19:22; edited 1 time in total
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| abc wrote: |
| That looks quite steep, to be climbing without protection! |
It's only 50 degrees, my stairs are 42. Protection isn't needed unless you are a giant pussy. Crampons and ice axes are all you need.
And, no, I haven't done this one, but I've done similar with similar levels of equipment.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Mon 3-02-14 19:37; edited 1 time in total
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