 Poster: A snowHead
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I know everyone raves on about skiing off piste and fresh tracks/powder but is skiing moguls really the highest form or 'art' of skiing ?
Skiing off-piste is something special and has that 'soul' factor so don't get me wrong here but . . .
I suppose another way of saying it would be, is it the hardest ?. Personally I think, from my experience, one of those crappy, icy mogul fields is far harder to ski, with any style, than off piste. Let's face it, if you want to get down and no more, then virtually 80 % of people could but it's not really skiing, it's scraping down or surviving upright.
In fact skiing off-piste is (generally) a lot easier, especially when you get first tracks and don't have to cross other peoples tracks because then the resistance is much more uniform. And it's even easier on a snowboard.
I almost understand why Glen Plake carries on skiing on skis (sic) that are X years out of date. Because he can, he's got pride in that ability.
The flip side (anticipating) is should we restrict where we can go and what we can do. No, absolutely not BUT is skiing a hard mogul run way above skiing that off-piste itinerary (in terms of technique) you hear people talking loudly about in the bar at night, like it's some sort of batch of courage.
When people learn to ski they think off-piste is the ultimate. I think it is in terms of experience but is it in terms of technique. No, that would be moguls.
So as a beginner/intermediate, when you see that crappy mogul field, take heart . . . off-piste is easier.
All the caveats about wearing a helmet, being mtn aware etc. etc. accepted.
And also (anticipating again) is downhill harder ? I suspect the best downhillers would also be the best mogul skiers but downhill is the blue ribband. And I'm also talking pure moguls, as the skiers made them, not the manufactured kind.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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NickW,
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off-piste is easier.
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Then how do we rate off piste moguls? 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Doesn't count as off-piste because so many people have been there before to form the moguls.
Aha (smileys).
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Skiing bumps dictates where a turn must be made, so yes, the skier can't choose where and where to makea turn (to a degree).
Skiing bumps well with good technique also requires you to be able to uncouple and use all 4 planes of balance individually.
For example, the majority of early intermediate skiers are unable to uncouple fore-aft movement in their lower joints, with up-down movements , and to use them independently.
So yes, I would say that skiing bumps with good technique (I am steering away from the word "style") - requires a high degree of ability and mobility.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Skiing bumps can be EASIER, particularly more gentle ones, for intermediates, than skiing icy piste, trees, or powder. They can use the bumps to help their turning, and they can use counting bumps as a way of getting a rhythm going, and set targets for themselves, e.g. "I will traverse, and turn on the 5th bump, then go back 5 and turn again. After a few truns, reduce that to 4 bumps, then 3, etc"
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| Skiing bumps can be EASIER, particularly more gentle ones, for intermediates, than skiing icy piste, trees, or powder. They can use the bumps to help their turning, and they can use counting bumps as a way of getting a rhythm going, and set targets for themselves, e.g. "I will traverse, and turn on the 5th bump, then go back 5 and turn again. After a few truns, reduce that to 4 bumps, then 3, etc" |
Try counting! yep I can do that, 1 and 2 and 3 and oh! Sh*t too fast, panic....................
. 
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I find skiing moguls easier than doing a difficult offpiste run, e.g. a couloir, tight trees etc. A good reason is that a fall is less likely to cause serious damage on moguls.
They might be harder than pure pow at a 25 degree incline, yep.
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NickW, I'm biased, but wholeheartedly agree with you.
IMHO Skiing bumps, fall line, at speed and with elegance is way harder than skiing off-piste. And a very good way to sort the cats from the pigeons.
Especially these days on these daft modern skis - anyone who can "ski" parallel can ski off piste. Anyone.
Cedric I can see your point but I reckon it depends on what you mean by being "able" to ski bumps. I think it implies being able to ski fall line, at speed, turning on at least every bump once, possibly with a few aerials on the way.
For me, having fractured two vertebrae in bumps I reckon off -piste is significantly less risky!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I havent got as far as off piste but i do know I LOVE bumps! I probably have limited to no style, but they so far appear to me to be the hardest 'pisted' activity about (and of course the most fun!).
Maybe I have the wrong idea of off piste, but I always thought it would be harder.... afterall you have cliffs and all that jazz to handle dont you?
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buns, get deep and light enough powder and cliffs are easy.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Nick,
I think mastering moguls is a very good skill to learn before going off piste. You can normally find a nice field in resort and take lessons or practise away - you normally have the bumps to yourself, the discipline of the slope dictating when and where you turn is extremely useful for the days when you are not skiing acres of off-piste powder on a 25 degree slope. There are a lot of places where the skills are very complementary.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I'm with Wear The Fox Hat on this - in fact I would go further: moguls are easy.
If is it diffulty you are wanting, then far worse is Ice, frozen rutted slush, or off-piste breakable crust.
But NickW in his original post talks about "art" of skiing. That must involve emotions, aesthetics, and visual appeal.
If so, then we are back with off-piste skiing though fresh snow where the pleasure is not just the ecstacy of performance or the thrill of the spectacle but also the superb record left behind on the mountain.
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Jonpim, you are not talking about "powder 11s" then are you?
If moguls are so easy, why do I know so few people who can ski them really well? Whereas (almost) everyone I know can ski off-piste, on ice, frozen rutted slush and breakable crust, etc.
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You know it makes sense.
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Once, just the once, I managed a fall-line bumps charge. I was so surprised that I needed a rest afterwards 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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T Bar, I'm not sure that bringing in WC competition-level skiing into the discussion is really applicable to anything a recreational skier (however good) will do, but it's an interesting comparison. By coincidence, our coach was telling me a story this morning (clearly one of his favourites, as he's told it before) about Franz Klammer. He (Klammer, that is) was standing on a slope (probably Pylons) at Argentiere watching the cool dude mogul specialists really shredding (or whatever the appropriate word is in the modern argot ) the mogul field, knees up and down like piledrivers etc. His point was to ski as slowly as possible consistent with the speed you're doing. He then went down the same run, apparently giving it about half the effort - but his time completely wiped the floor with the cool dudes!
(BTW - I haven't missed the enormous bulge your tongue is making in your cheek in the post above - honest).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I watched one impressive test the British coach gave the children aiming for the GB team in Meribel 2004 - a technical test that was part of an evaluation for selection purposes. Took place on a mogully and very steep red, (though not the biggest bumps I've seen). The kids had to take the run as if it were a GS, steering smooth, undeviating, wide GS turns from top to bottom. Even though it wasn't a fall-line run, it soon sorted out those with lesser skills. Carving across the bumps using the full width of the piste they picked up more and more pace, until some were really rocketing. Those that couldn't absorb the moguls were quickly in trouble. No way could I have lasted more than a couple of turns at that speed.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Well, it all depends on the conditions and the runs. I would say a tight, steep tree-run on ice/super-hardpack would be tougher than pretty much any mogul field, but a soft, powdery chute is going to be alot easier to ski well than a steep mogul field (assuming skiing the fall-line at speed). Off-piste runs are in a way alot like on-piste runs - they come in all levels of difficulty, and are heavily affected by conditions (even more so than on-piste runs, actually).
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Hello everyone!
As an ageing, and self confessed ‘lazy’ intermediate I have to agree with the original post. ‘Off Piste’ covers a multitude of possibilities, which can include lovely soft swoopy stuff where anyone who can point both their skis in the same direction can survive and even enjoy it. Moguls on the other hand, seem to guarantee at best sore legs and at worst that unsettling feeling that comes when you see your feet between you and the ski and one ski sliding down the hill on its own.
Basically for me Moguls = 90% chance of wipe-out whereas off-piste = 50/50 chance of staying upright. (and on-piste maybe as good as 80/20!) 
In neither case would I claim any marks for ‘style’ but moguls are definitely the more challenging.
SimonT
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We need a vote don't we...
ponder, With all respect, I disagree. I know many skiers who can quite happily ski any conditions/gradient off piste, but come all to pieces in bumps.
PG, that would have been fun to watch
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What's hardest, bumps or Powder?
How about huge, icy Bumps covered (just to their tips) in a fresh fall of soft powder
All the more tricky if they're off piste in low vis so there are no poles to show u which way is down 
Personally I love moguls for their challenge to react and respond quickly, repeatedly. I've known a few really good skiers who hate them though - but possibly that's because they're control freaks and can't handle the piste 'telling them when to turn'
Off piste skiing is a whole different story though. It may be less technically demanding most of the time but, by its nature, u stand the chance of finding yourself in a situation requiring just as much skill as u would half way down a mogul run but with possibly far higher stakes
I don't think it's fair to leave things like mountain awareness out of the equation either. The line u choose down the mountain is as important as, no, more important than the line u choose through the moguls. It's the mountain awareness used to make these choices that determines how difficult your descent is. It's what leads u into, or keeps u out of, trouble. It is as integral to the technique of skiing off piste as knowing how to get your skis to turn in the dreaded breakable crust!
There are times, off piste when u may need to react quickly in response to something the mountain has thrown up before u. Fine control within tight limits may be required just for a few moments. IMO moguls are good practice for such a high-pressure moment but moguls remain the same challenge all the way whilst, off piste the terrain unfolds to throw up a different challenge next.
I think mogul skiing may be the ultimate in piste skiing. It's as chalky as chalk gets.
But off piste - that's the Cheese!
IMHO
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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admin, today is clearly a day for really good posts. Well argued. Still not changing my mind although your points are all very valid and well expressed!
I don't "know" any really good skiers who hate bumps (except for injury reasons...). Personally I reckon you aren't a really good skier unless you can make a reasonable fist of bumps. That'd be a "Fistful of Moguls" I presume, he he he.
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It's also important to distinguish and acknowledge different bumps skiing tactics.
Competition Freestyle mogul skiing, lots of pressure control & absorbtion, lots of pivoting (foot rotation). Directly down the fall line, down the direct rut/trough line.
Technically well executed bumps skiing, exhibiting pivoting (foot rotation), pressure control and edging, but skiing rounder and more edged (carved) turn shape. Still skiing stright down the fall line, but not necessarily following the rut/trough 100%. Showing ability in turning in the ruts/troughs, tops, backs and fronts of the bumps.
The first of these is probably more exciting (at a punter level) to watch, as it's fast and furious aka sewing machine needles, the second is undoubtedly a more technically accomplished performance as it shows the ability to vary the turn shape, and exhibits different skills.
And of course - GS turns at high speed through (large) bumps. Ths is a CSIA Level4 examination requirement!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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veeeight, is it indeed (CSIA L4)? How very cool.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Moguls are high, wehn you go flying off one...
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Just to try and clarify where I was coming from. I wasn't thinking of the man made mogul courses, I'm thinking of naturally occurring mogul fields. There's no obvious route down, it's all about the ability to adapt as you go and spot a line whilst staying in control but that little throw or kick means you constantly end up re-evaluating. It's a bit like that old chesnut of skiing being a series of linked recoveries and it's very, very dynamic.
When I say the art of skiing I'm thinking about skis on the snow (most of the time). People performing aerial manouvres during competition mogul is great to watch but that bit isn't really skiing, the skiing bit is just the take off and landing, impressive as the landing bit is. The areial bit is learn on the trampoline or jumping into swimming pools or air bags.
Couloirs, exposure, crust, trees it's all good stuff but it's not necessarily what I think of as the 'art' of skiing. I was on holiday in Jackson Hole last season and I fell over on one run almost immediately, whilst my less proficient friends (false modesty aside) got down without falling but I was trying to ski it and they were merely surviving.
Couloirs/exposure is morre a mental thing, not necessarily 'pure' skiing ability.
Breakable crust to me is simply no fun and doesn't involve the same level of dynamic adaption, it's survival time. Nobody searches out breakable crust, do they ??
On the subject of trees I think they represent a very similar challenge in that you have to constantly adapt and choose the best option. One thing with trees though, they tend to protect the snow and besides which, if it's a regular run it develops in to a mogul run, just with trees in the middle of the bumps. (Skiing trees is probably my favourite form of skiing).
If you can ski moguls well chances are you could ski everything else given the right attitude but like a few other people have said, I've known very good skiers, off-piste etc. who weren't that good in the moguls.
Incidentally don't get me wrong, I'm not some ace mogul. It's just what I think is the highest form of skiing.
veeeight, CSIA L4 I dream of. I did CSIA L1 with the intention of following it up with L2 and realised I just wasn't good enough.
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You know it makes sense.
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David Murdoch, NickW
Just for you. A L4 doing his stuff, GS turns in the bumps.
Right Click, Save Target As
Just be aware that they are making something very difficult look very easy!
And here's a drill to improve your bump skiing: Dolphin Turns!
Right Click, Save Target As
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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You call those moguls? Hah!! I eat them little mounds for breakfast! 
As for them dolphin turns - looks like a guaranteed fall-over-maneuver to me.
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Poster: A snowHead
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snowboarding is the highest form of skiing
<flame suit on>
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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As a relative newcomer... moguls force me into dealing with strength economy techniques, off piste gives me time to figure out how to adapt my limited skills to the terrain. Which will I push things more in.... off!!!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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veeeight, nice vid (GS in bumps), exactly the sort of thing I was referring to in the test mentioned above. At that sort of speed only the best of the kids (11 to 13 year olds) both survived unscathed and looked to be skiing with style and in a relaxed manner. The club FIS group trainer I was with last night reckoned - although he felt a comparison with off piste skills was pretty pointless really - that GS turns at speed over bumps on a steep run, executed correctly and effortlessly, demonstrated the ne plus ultra of technical skills. (I appreciate that NickW wasn't really referring to this way of negotiating moguls in his original post.)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Videos don't work for me  Would love to see GS in bumps!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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veeeight, can't open that (to great frustration!) on either my aging wintel or my bros' mega apple.
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You actually have to save the file first, before opening it. Just clicking on the link doesn't work.
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PG, tried that both computers, just doesn't work...
"ClassFactory cannot supply requested class" is the error message...honest
Anyway. NickW asks whether skiing bumps is the highest form of skiing and IMHO yes it is...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
PG, tried that both computers, just doesn't work...
"ClassFactory cannot supply requested class" is the error message...honest
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I had a problem too, had to use a Windoze computer with Internet Explorer (washes mouth out with soap and water) in the end to access the file.
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FAQ
